There's a whole lotta typin' goin' on

Jebus

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CNN.com said:
U.S. 'abducted suspects in Europe'

Friday, May 20, 2005 Posted: 1404 GMT (2204 HKT)

BERLIN, Germany (Reuters) -- Pressure is growing on the United States to respond to allegations that its agents were involved in spiriting terrorist suspects out of three European countries and sending them to nations where they may have been tortured.

In Italy, a judge said this week that foreign intelligence officials "kidnapped" an Egyptian suspect in Milan two years ago and took him to a U.S. base from where he was flown home.

In Germany, a Munich prosecutor is preparing a batch of questions to U.S. authorities on the case of a Lebanese-born German who says he was arrested in Macedonia on New Year's Eve 2003 and flown by U.S. agents to a jail in Afghanistan.

And in Sweden, a parliamentary ombudsman has criticized the security services over the expulsion of two Egyptian terrorism suspects who were handed over to U.S. agents and flown home aboard a U.S. government-leased plane in 2001.

Campaign group Human Rights Watch said there was credible evidence the pair had been tortured while being held incommunicado for five weeks after their return. One was later convicted in a "patently unfair" trial.

"We know it's not right to send people back to torture. That's criminal. That's the one factor that ties all these cases together right now," Julia Hall of Human Rights Watch said in a telephone interview.

"But whether they're kidnappings, whether they're abductions, whether they occur always with the collaboration of security services in the host country -- these are things that still have yet to be determined."
Assurances against torture

Secret transfers of suspects to foreign states for interrogation are an acknowledged tool of the United States in the war on terrorism, but it denies charges that the practice -- known as rendition -- amounts to outsourcing torture.

"(In) the post-9/11 world, the United States must make sure we protect our people and our friends from attack ... And one way to do so is to arrest people and send them back to their country of origin with the promise that they won't be tortured," President George W. Bush said in March.

"We seek assurances that nobody will be tortured when we render a person back to their home country."

Human Rights Watch argues such assurances are worthless.

The latest twist came in the case of Egyptian cleric Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, who disappeared from a Milan street in February 2003.

Italian judge Guido Salvini said in a court document, obtained by Reuters: "It is now possible to affirm with certainty that he was kidnapped by people belonging to foreign intelligence networks interested in interrogating him and neutralizing him, to then hand him over to Egyptian authorities."

Although he did not identify the foreign agents responsible, Salvini said Nasr had been "taken to an American base, interrogated and beaten and taken the next day on board a U.S. military plane" to Egypt.

It was not until a year later, Salvini said, that Nasr was heard from again in phone calls, including one to his wife. Italian media have reported he told her he was tortured in Egypt and partially lost his hearing.

Salvini is investigating suspects linked to Nasr and is not responsible for the probe into his disappearance. That case is being handled by the Milan prosecutor's office, which said Salvini did not have access to all the documents and expressed surprise at his conclusions.

But his comments were the hardest yet by judicial authorities in Europe on the alleged renditions.
German probe

In Germany, Munich prosecutor Martin Hofmann said he was finalizing an official request to the United States for information on the case of Khaled el-Masri.

The German citizen says he was arrested in Macedonia on December 31, 2003 and flown by U.S. agents to an Afghan jail. Only five months after being seized was he flown back to Europe and dumped without explanation in Albania, from where he made his way home.

NBC News reported last month that Masri was snatched because he shared the same name as an al Qaeda suspect. It said even when investigators realized the error, he was held another six weeks in an Afghan jail dubbed the Salt Pit before being freed.

"I'm investigating kidnapping, physical injury, duress and deprivation of freedom," said Hofmann, who is also seeking information from Macedonia and Albania.

But investigators face formidable obstacles to prove what happened and hold anyone to account. Hofmann said he could not bring any charges unless he could identify those individuals involved in Masri's alleged abduction.

"The problem is, I need the persons responsible. So far the investigation is into 'unknown persons'," he told Reuters.

Source


Now, this is a bit too much. The rest of the world has given the USA much help in chasing down terrorists after 9/11, but this is stepping over the line. If the USA wants suspects that are on European territory, they should ask the EU to expidite. Aside from the fact that it's quite rude to have American intelligence agents operating on European soil (especially as openly as this), actually abducting people is... an incredible insult. Never mind that they actually took the wrong guy too, this is a sign of blatant disrespect toward the EU and Italy in particular. What's next, abducting European citizens and expecting to get away with it? Sjeesh. Just imagine Cuba abducting terrorists on American soil - you'd never hear the end of it...
 
Georgey Pordgey Pudding and Pie
Went to War and made us cry,
Now's he's taking Euro's away,
To torture chambers where they play!
 
The problem with extraditing terrorists and criminals is that it involves a lengthy and complicated procedure that doesn't necessarily result in successful extradition, especially because the suspect usually has citizenship of the country where he is hiding. Even if the state should decide to extradite the suspect, he/she has already had more than enough time to flee the country and go into hiding elsewhere. Israel was faced with same problem when attempting to track down Nazi war criminals and Arab terrorists in exile. Instead of going through the hassle of dealing with uncooperative governments of Argentine, USA, Switzerland, Norway and other countries, they simply tasked Mossad with abducting and/or liquidating known Nazis and terrorists. Mossad became amazingly swift and effective in that practice. Though in spite of that effectiveness, even they were prone to occasionally err, like that time they assassinated a Maroccan immigrant with Norwegian citizenship in Norway, acting on incorrect information about the poor sod's terrorist background.

Mossad aside, I support American intelligence agencies in abducting terrorists, as long as they act on reliable information, work competently and leave little trace. I will actually go further and wish our agencies had the expertise and equipment to engage in similar activities. Some years ago I heard talk of Croatian Intelligence Service planning to assassinate several high-ranking Serbian army generals responsible for war crimes in my country, but I guess it was abandoned in interest of our international reputation (or the services were simply too busy spying on their own citizens to be doing their job; who knows). A pity.
 
I believe Ratty is correct in this assessment. I am not in support of torture, but I hardly see how in the absence of a sort of worldwide Interpol that these suspects would stand any chance at all of being turned over for prosecution?

Aside from the fact that it's quite rude to have American intelligence agents operating on European soil (especially as openly as this), actually abducting people is... an incredible insult.

I hate to be a naysayer, but what do you think the possibility is that the EU would hand over suspects to the United States, even if asked? Jebus, I don't think it is particularly supring that the United States *gasp*actually has things such as the CIA which has been doing such things for many years, as had the KGB and many other intelligence agencies? Or is it merely the big bad US doing something every other nation would be "too moral" to act upon?
 
Fireblade said:
I hate to be a naysayer, but what do you think the possibility is that the EU would hand over suspects to the United States, even if asked? Jebus, I don't think it is particularly supring that the United States *gasp*actually has things such as the CIA which has been doing such things for many years, as had the KGB and many other intelligence agencies? Or is it merely the big bad US doing something every other nation would be "too moral" to act upon?

Sure. We're too moral to apprehend terrorists.
After all, we're only Europeans! What the hell do we know of terrorism? Nothing! Let's leave the terrorist-hunting to the Americans, who had a grand total of two terrorist attacks on their soil ever - one of them being by an American too, no less - because they're doing such a dang fine job in rooting out terrorism and spreading love all over the globe.

Sjeesh boy. Ever heard of IRA? ETA? The dozens and dozens of Communist terrorist organisations we had? We've been dealing with and apprehending terrorists for decades now. Get your head of your ass.
 
Jebus said:
Sure. We're too moral to apprehend terrorists.
After all, we're only Europeans! What the hell do we know of terrorism? Nothing! Let's leave the terrorist-hunting to the Americans, who had a grand total of two terrorist attacks on their soil ever - one of them being by an American too, no less - because they're doing such a dang fine job in rooting out terrorism and spreading love all over the globe.

Sjeesh boy. Ever heard of IRA? ETA? The dozens and dozens of Communist terrorist organisations we had? We've been dealing with and apprehending terrorists for decades now. Get your head of your ass.
You completely missed his point. He is saying that American intelligence agencies aren't the only ones who engage in illegal activity such as abducting suspected terrorists. Europeans have done the same, and worse. Don't pretend that you know nothing about French operatives who blew up the Greenpeace ship, Rainbow Warrior. This has nothing to do with competence of a country's security forces in dealing with terrorist threat - intelligence services of European countries have done a lot of mischiefs themselves, so most European governments really have no right to moralize about this issue, as it is hypocritical and distasteful. Not that it bothers me; I'm used to hypocrisy being the main trait an average European country displays in foreign policies.
 
Yes Jebus, I am quite aware of all of them. The Red Brigades, the Baader-Meinhof, PLO, ETA, IRA, and so on. Maybe not as familiar as YOU might be in France with French terrorists, but I can think of the bang-up job France did in Algeria to the FLN to remind me of how "moral" Europeans are. We have such things in our classes analyzing such groups in the aptly named "International Security" section of International Relations. You know, maybe we do things over here besides *gasp* wear cowboy hats and drink beer? We're just, after all, a nation of over 280 million morons controlled by the new Evil Empire and couldn't possibly understand the nuances of Europe, having invested over 40 years of various aid and pushes to create some form of semi-structured political system. Two terrorist attacks ever? I suppose, you know, the FBI federal building, the various eco-nuts, religious fundamentalism, the entire wave of the blighted 60's including the Weathermen and such were just "minor incidents". Get YOUR head out of your ass, that maybe, MAYBE intelligence operations do what NEEDS to be done. Of course not though, we're America, international pariah who only does what is wrong.

You tell me you are some well-educated individual aware of political vagaries, but you are full of crap. You are just as mindlessly "patriotic" as anyone else here, casting America as the insensitive and blundering guardian trampeling oh so vaunted European political freedom. What political freedom? Thumb through the EU Constitution, tell me about democratically elected processes or the Ministers? Tell me about how Sinn Fein is recognized in England as a legal political entity despite the actions of the IRA, the PIRA, the Ulster Defense Brigades (Oranges), and so on? The idiotic various "political correctness" clauses and EU "unity" propaganda being doled out to the hordes? Or perhaps you look at the actions of the ETA Basques who the Spanish government has been so effective in combating. Wow, I suppose Spain just rolled over and they went away. Freedom? Freedom for France to ban all religious apparel, then arrest anyone based on suspicion of terrorism or insurgency, as well as profiling of its own Muslim elements?

What a load of crock. Fine, America has had problems reigning in some excesses with the CIA, I say "And?" You assume your intelligence forces just use mean words to get subversives to confess? As Ratty said, hypocrisy...it seems to be a defining trait of European politics as well just like politics everywhere else in the world. You whine about a moralizing America who casts this as a war of good and evil, look at the idealistic claptrap you are throwing out about how "evil" America is.
 
I always thought it was only legal to do that to KNOWN criminals. I can understand if we abduct known terrorists, but suspects? That's unconstitutional. Someone needs to be fired.
 
Fireblade said:
Yes Jebus, I am quite aware of all of them. The Red Brigades, the Baader-Meinhof, PLO, ETA, IRA, and so on. Maybe not as familiar as YOU might be in France with French terrorists, but I can think of the bang-up job France did in Algeria to the FLN to remind me of how "moral" Europeans are. We have such things in our classes analyzing such groups in the aptly named "International Security" section of International Relations. You know, maybe we do things over here besides *gasp* wear cowboy hats and drink beer? We're just, after all, a nation of over 280 million morons controlled by the new Evil Empire and couldn't possibly understand the nuances of Europe, having invested over 40 years of various aid and pushes to create some form of semi-structured political system. Two terrorist attacks ever? I suppose, you know, the FBI federal building, the various eco-nuts, religious fundamentalism, the entire wave of the blighted 60's including the Weathermen and such were just "minor incidents". Get YOUR head out of your ass, that maybe, MAYBE intelligence operations do what NEEDS to be done. Of course not though, we're America, international pariah who only does what is wrong.

Wow. Both of you "cut with the dull edge of the knife", don'tcha? Funny, though.

Fireblade said:
You tell me you are some well-educated individual aware of political vagaries, but you are full of crap. You are just as mindlessly "patriotic" as anyone else here, casting America as the insensitive and blundering guardian trampeling oh so vaunted European political freedom.

Hello, nice to meet you, Mr. Fireblade Pot, over here you see Mr. Jebus Kettle. I hope you'll have a nice get-together.

Fireblade said:
What political freedom? Thumb through the EU Constitution, tell me about democratically elected processes or the Ministers?

The EU constitution is yet to be ratified.

Democratic it is not, though. But if you think the EU sans constitution is democratic, you be a fool.

Fireblade said:
Tell me about how Sinn Fein is recognized in England as a legal political entity despite the actions of the IRA, the PIRA, the Ulster Defense Brigades (Oranges), and so on?

It seems to have been awful quiet in GB lately though, don't you think?

Fireblade said:
The idiotic various "political correctness" clauses and EU "unity" propaganda being doled out to the hordes?

Clauses in what? Propaganda where? Is this still about the constitution? Read above.

It's not a constitution, by the way, it's a "constitutional agreement" or something like that. Not a constitution.

Fireblade said:
Or perhaps you look at the actions of the ETA Basques who the Spanish government has been so effective in combating. Wow, I suppose Spain just rolled over and they went away.

Huh?

Fireblade said:
Freedom? Freedom for France to ban all religious apparel, then arrest anyone based on suspicion of terrorism or insurgency, as well as profiling of its own Muslim elements?

Shit yeah, France almost reminds us of another country just like it in the world. Buncha muslim-bashers.

Fireblade said:
Fine, America has had problems reigning in some excesses with the CIA, I say "And?" You assume your intelligence forces just use mean words to get subversives to confess? As Ratty said, hypocrisy...it seems to be a defining trait of European politics as well just like politics everywhere else in the world. You whine about a moralizing America who casts this as a war of good and evil, look at the idealistic claptrap you are throwing out about how "evil" America is.

That's funny, I'm pretty sure Jebus didn't say anything about having the high moral ground or about Europe being good and the US being bad.

The point is that the US intelligence services don't really have any business plucking people (though not EU citizens, which means I personally don't feel as strongly about this as Jebus does) out of their allies' countries. This is an insult to both a country's sovereignty and its competence.

I don't want to hear "but Europe did the same". What is this, fucking kinder garten? I don't care who threw the first rock, it's still wrong and it's as wrong as when Europe does it as it is when the US does it.

Jeesh. I suppose the world's just finy and dandy if everyone does something wrong and thanks to that they can't say to one another that they're doing something wrong, 'cause that'd be hypcrisy. Yes, woohoo, go straw man arguments.

*does the straw man dance*

John said:
Oh, I'd enjoy that very much. I just start getting hot when I think about an M1A2 round going through Leclerc armor. Oh yeah.

You just need to learn to shut up already.
 
Wow, Kharn...you sure like to play it "rough" as regards your comments; being the big bad moderator and going to "our" level of insults. Cut with a dull knife indeed; anyone can make a smartass comment and pretend to have the high ground as you like to play it. I'll even seperate each issue and grievance I have with your argument here into distinct sections to make it easier for you to read, quote 8 sentences for no reason, and then reply with a witty riposte. I'm such a nice guy.

Being that you considered yourself a realist (unless I am mistaken, which is possible), why are you feeling all hot and bothered about this anyways? A nation has proprietary interest in maintaining its own security. "Insult to their sovereignty"? I wasn't aware that in this globalizing world we lived in that the Treaty of Westphalia still held sway, nor do I think or really care about the "feelings". Nations can and do what they percieve to be their needs as regard maintaining power. If Europe cannot stop that, and in a realist world there are no "allies" in a stuggle for hegemony, influence, and power, then why would you say such a stupid comment as "insult to sovereignty and competence"?

Straw man argument? I attacked the issue, not Jebus. Yes I insulted him, fine, but I also answered the point in that A) people are all nationalist to some extent, hence the existence of nation-states and B) that assuming the actions of America are not representative of politics writ large is asinine and stupid. Hey though, no problems, as you evidently don't seem to have a problem attacking both Jebus and myself as regards intellect. Pot calling the kettle black indeed.

I never said that the US didn't engage in quote "muslim-bashing", but how the hell do you compare the actions of the citizenry and disorganized interest groups with a French LAW that bans religious displays in public? I find this one particulary amusing, given the fact that I am myself reading the Qu'ran, reading up on the dialogue between Western and "Islamic" nations and other such matters. We all know of course that the Netherlands is a bastion of tolerance and would never practice "muslim-bashing", right?


On a last note: What the hell is a "Constitutional Agreement" if not a Constitution? Logical fallacy: weasel words. I fail to see how trying to ratify a document to govern a supposed entity is not a constitution or charter. I have little faith in the EU as an entity, with or without this EU Constitution.


There, I think I broke those up nicely. I look forward to you lassoing quotes out of context and belitting others as not having the mental actuity to understand anything without you holding our hands and babysitting. Dance, dance!
 
You just need to learn to shut up already.
EU Military<US Military. Persaonlly, I think a war would be enjoyable in a way, like watching a perfect Zerg rush in Starcraft, only the Zergs are M1A2 tanks and B-52's rushing to finally flatten Berlin again.

I just don't think anyone calling for EU-US war on either side deserves to get away without me trolling them, especially if it's a Euro calling for thier own destruction.

Shit yeah, France almost reminds us of another country just like it in the world. Buncha muslim-bashers.
Haha. We do have a lot in common with the French. But for the record, our Muslim bashing is strictly de facto, thiers is de jure.

And unlike the French, we have no shitty 1905 law on secularity.
 
John Uskglass said:
We do have a lot in common with the French. But for the record, our Muslim bashing is strictly de facto, thiers is de jure.

The French's muslim-bashing remains an internal affair, not like the US and their "casualties" wherever they send troops.
 
Fireblade said:
*snip a whole lotta US-defending*

Haha, amazing. It's funny to see how everytime a European accuses the USA of anything it's always like we're trying to take the moral highground. Immediately, the US defension mechanism kicks in : YOU'RE JUST AS EVIL AS I AM! Well, y'know, this has nothing to do with being evil or not. 't Has to do with manners and respect.

Ehehe, this reminds me of that breed of black people that call you a racist everytime you do something they don't like. Amazingly irritating people.

-"I'm sorry sir, this area is off limits to our customers."
-"RACIST!"

This is kinda like that. Only, the black people are the US, and everytime anyone tells them something they don't like they call the others hypocrits. Yeah well.

As Kharn said, this has nothing to do with who is the 'evil' one and who is the 'good' one. I don't care if this would've been the USA or the Russians, this is an incredible insult either way. As it turns out, it's the Americans - to no great surprise, I think. They're used to taking what they want in third world countries - Europe is just a small step, isn't it? You want something, you come in and get it.

There's a name for persons and nations like that.

And I realise intelligence agencies are something that's here to stay. Hell, I live in Belgium - the nation with undoubtably the most secret agents every square inch... Yet, there's a difference between spying on your friend (as we all know for ages the US do), and actually assuming you can enter their territory and do whatever the fuck they want.

Fireblade said:
Straw man argument? I attacked the issue, not Jebus.

I think you're mixing up Ad Hominem with Straw Man arguments. And yes, practically everything you said was a Straw Man. No surpises there.
 
When is or was Belgium our friend pray tell? Maybe forty years ago, but if we are supposed to approach this from a "realist" perspective, nations have no "friends" Jebus. Quaint notions of "disrespect" notwithstanding, the United States is acting out a role as global hegemon. Expect such a thing to occur, because that is how such a nation retains its power. You really think that if there were the possibility of doing such a thing in the US, Belgium would not even attempt to exert is "power" over another in order to pursue national interest?]


I know what ad hominem is, attacking the person. Straw man means creating a prop that is easier to attack than the main issue. I've done no such thing. The line proceeding after my assertion that it was not a straw man attack had nothing to do with the preceeding sentence. I was merely stating a fact.

The premise is simple (bearing in mind I am NOT a "realist" as regards IR theory, so I don't agree with this *gasp*): The US does what it wants because it can. Any other nation that has the means to do such things, would. There is fundamentally no difference between the characters of nations who possess power and are worried about security. It is really that simple.
 
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