Timer speech tree

[ryuga]

Found a timer speech tree over at radiated society. It is by the same buy who made the dinosaur entity, Indianos.
http://www.stgfc.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3732

This is similar to floating speech idea suggested before. Basically a timer starts after the multiple choice NPC speech is displayed and removed by clicking OK. Player click the timer between certain seconds to fire off triggers. Example is below.

==============
Sample
==============
A00_Nikos_Spc_02A = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>Ok Indianos, I need your help. My kid went to the forest to play, and I am afraid something terrible happened because he hasn't come back for awhile. I am a poor farmer and these dinosaurs scare me. Can you find my kid and kill the dinosaurs?\n\n
<Cb>ANSWERS:\n
<Cr>A (0-3sec) Ok, I will help you, friend.\n
<Cy>B (4-6sec) Let me think it about it.
}

==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170459007/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html

Mission_Alpha_Original.mis
- Original (2nd version) by Indiano contains a few timing bugs and many redundant variables and actions. His 1st version was cleaner but was bugged probably because not taking into account that all satisfied triggers executes.

Mission_Alpha_NoVariables.mis
- Removal of redundant variables and actions and fix of timing bugs. Implementing (# of triggers and speeches) this version of timer speech tree is comparable to equipping item speech tree @ http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35678 in terms of implementation. Indianos didn't implement Display World Text method and implemented all Player Character (PC) speeches so the Pipboy can record both NPC speeches and PC choices, hence there are more speeches.

Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_WorldText.mis
- Made this for a comparison on player usability and implementation of the equipping item speech tree. While Display World Text is wonderful in terms of presentation to player while playing through the speech tree (gotta love 300x200 image in the middle of the screen), Pipboy records all Display World Text under "." If anyone knows how to change that, please let me know. For tracking speech purpose, it is much easier to have regular dialog for speeches.




===============================================
Changelog (Dec.04,2008)
===============================================

-----------------------------
Mission_Alpha_NoVariables.mis
-----------------------------
- Removed all variables used for timer loop (Using speech occurred condition)
- Removed timer loop triggers
- Removed redundant hide and stop timer actions for timer triggers
- Removed timer delay actions for timer triggers (see line below)
- Added timer reset trigger (see line below)
- Adjusted timer reset action from 0 to 1 (this with removal of timer delay actions and added timer loop trigger fix bugs where quickly clicking NPC will result in repeating speech)
- Heavily modified speech with grammar correction, more streamlined tags and streamline format


--------------------------------------
Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_WorldText.mis
--------------------------------------
- Removed all variables used for timer loop (Using speech occurred trigger)
- Removed timer loop trigger
- Added timer reset trigger
- Speech system in game using Display World Text box for more visiable speech reading area
- Heavily modified speech with grammer correction, more streamlined tags and streamline format


=================
====== Edit =======
=================
http://rapidshare.com/files/170962114/TimerSpeechTree_WorldText_NoVariable_NoReply.rar

-----------------------------------------------
Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_NoReply_WorldText.mis
-----------------------------------------------
- Same as Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_WorldText.mis plus the following
- Removed all human replies in Mission_Alpha_Text_WorldText_NoReply.txt
- Added some speeches in the text file for speech flows
- Removed all human replies speech nodes (only 5 speech nodes left, ; 1 for each level of speech tree) in mission file
- Added titles for all speeches (they would be sorted by the Pipboy log by titles)
- Removed 1/4 of the triggers (they were used for human replies)
- Modified some triggers to accomandate the lost logic in human reply triggers (Human reply triggers had additional logic in them besides human replies)
- Reorganized the speech levels in the tree, mainly for developability and maintainability.
- Removing replay of originating speech node with mute human reply. Now human mute action will indicate that human choose the last reply. Requested by Tsakonas.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_WorldText.mis
- Made this for a comparison on player usability and implementation of the equipping item speech tree. While Display World Text is wonderful in terms of presentation to player while playing through the speech tree (gotta love 300x200 image in the middle of the screen), Pipboy records all Display World Text under "." If anyone knows how to change that, please let me know. For tracking speech purpose, it is much easier to have regular dialog for speeches.

Is that indianos' comment or yours? Because it's not the dialogue but a history log (and not everyone uses it) and I posted a solution a year ago. http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?p=400142#400142

 

[ryuga]

Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_WorldText.mis
- Made this for a comparison on player usability and implementation of the equipping item speech tree. While Display World Text is wonderful in terms of presentation to player while playing through the speech tree (gotta love 300x200 image in the middle of the screen), Pipboy records all Display World Text under "." If anyone knows how to change that, please let me know. For tracking speech purpose, it is much easier to have regular dialog for speeches.

Is that indianos' comment or yours? Because it's not the dialogue but a history log (and not everyone uses it) and I posted a solution a year ago. http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?p=400142#400142

That's my personal preference to track speeches, which I think is important in playing games with multiple quests. I started modding a week ago and haven't gone through all the backlogs on the modding on NWA, DnC, and Radiated Society. Mad Max and dog tutorial map wasn't available for download and I reproed all steps in the equipping item speech tree from the thread and of course it is lacking your solutions posted on DnC. Now you mentioned it, gracious. World text with proper tracking is the best marriage of of the speech presentation system.

 

[Tsakonas]

This is the topic at duckandcover forum for the timer speech tree dialogue system:
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21054&sid=fc29aefb1a53ca7a2b7f9d815e19008f

The original mission Alpha is this:
http://www.freewebs.com/pitoyras/Downloads/Mission_Alpha.7z
ryuga i downloaded your suggestion but i cant make it work.

==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170405196/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html

The only mission works to my pc is the original Mission.
The mission with no variables doesnt work at all.
The world text dialogue version doesnt work eather , when i open the mission shows me an empty world text.
What is wrong any help?

 

[ryuga]

This is the topic at duckandcover forum for the timer speech tree dialogue system:
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21054&sid=fc29aefb1a53ca7a2b7f9d815e19008f

The original mission Alpha is this:
http://www.freewebs.com/pitoyras/Downloads/Mission_Alpha.7z
ryuga i downloaded your suggestion but i cant make it work.

==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170405196/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html

The only mission works to my pc is the original Mission.
The mission with no variables doesnt work at all.
The world text dialogue version doesnt work eather , when i open the mission shows me an empty world text.
What is wrong any help?

You probably need to open the speech file for the modified .mis files and save them. When I saved the files to .rar, the file path for the speech files maybe lost. Let me look into it.

=Edit=
When opening the .mis file, go directly to Level, then speech file, then load the speech file. This way, all speech nodes are preserved.

=Edit=
Yes, it is the file path issue for speech file. Uploading a working rar now.

=Edit=
File uploaded. New link is edited in the original post. Please follow README file in the rar for install instruction.

=Edit=

This is the topic at duckandcover forum for the timer speech tree dialogue system:
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21054&sid=fc29aefb1a53ca7a2b7f9d815e19008f

The original mission Alpha is this:
http://www.freewebs.com/pitoyras/Downloads/Mission_Alpha.7z

Yes, that is his second version which has the same download URL of the first version.

I read through his first version thread and without testing it, it seems that it was broken because of not taking into account that all satisfied triggers execute.

His 1st branch trigger had condition such as timer > 1, then the 2nd branch trigger had condition such as timer > 3. As you can see, when the timer is > 3, all triggers would be executed. Adding more variables to fix this is fine, but not necessary. Just need to add a timer reset trigger and remove timer delay action from the original timer trigger. You can see that in either modified .mis files.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Ryuga are you working on a different drive than C: ?

And the no variables mission still doesn't work with the text file reloaded.

 

[ryuga]

Ryuga are you working on a different drive than C: ?

And the no variables mission still doesn't work with the text file reloaded.

Yes, I am working off F: drive. For the reloading the text file, did you try the way I suggested in one of the my edits in previous post? Also I uploaded a new rar which should have file path. Sorry, new to modding. Just need to work out the kinks on sharing files.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

There's a known bug with modders working off different drives, the game can never find the text files and people need to reload them in the editor.

Loading the text file again makes the world text version work, but in the no variables version you need to also associate each click event with the speech file (i.e in the pull down list random 1 select the appropriate dialogue entry).

 

[Tsakonas]

I tried it and it works good try.
The original Mission Alpha worked with timer and the click speech
system of Fallout tactics.
At preview PIPBOY screen it shows seperate the speeches of each NPC.
You suggested the same way of the speech tree timer system of Indianos but with world text.
The worlds text timer speech tree system is good but if you have
many NPC at a map you will have to read a huge preview at PIPBOY screen.
If you have in a map 5 NPC with two speech trees each you will have to read all the speeches together with random order.
For exable:
First the NPC_01_Speech_01,
belowNPC_02_Speech_01,
below NPC_03_Speech_01,
below NPC_04_Speech_01,
below NPC_05_Speech_01,
belowNPC_02_Speech_02,
belowNPC_04_Speech_02,
belowNPC_03_Speech_02,



I didnt found any bug at Indianos timerspeech tree system(if you click at 0 sec it shows you again the speech tree.)
I think the bug is at the text it must write(First option 1-3 sec and no 0-3 sec.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The worlds text timer speech tree system is good but if you have
many NPC at a map you will have to read a huge preview at PIPBOY screen.

Well ryuga hasn't added the titles for the world text entries so that's why they are all bundled together.

If you have in a map 5 NPC with two speech trees each you will have to read all the speeches together with random order.
For exable:
First the NPC_01_Speech_01,
belowNPC_02_Speech_01,
below NPC_03_Speech_01,
below NPC_04_Speech_01,
below NPC_05_Speech_01,
belowNPC_02_Speech_02,
belowNPC_04_Speech_02,
belowNPC_03_Speech_02,

The simple solution is to make the title for each dialogue the character's name that way all speech for npc 1 would be grouped together in order, with seperate entries for npc 2, 3 etc.

 

[Tsakonas]

Requiem wrote:

The simple solution is to make the title for each dialogue the character's name that way all speech for npc 1 would be grouped together in order, with seperate entries for npc 2, 3 etc.

Can i have a working version to see it in action?
Where i can download it?
Thanks for the reply.
I will wait.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Just open up Mission_Alpha_Text_WorldText.txt, copy and paste in this lot at the end.

title_A00_Nikos_Spc_01 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswA_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswB_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_Spc_02A = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswAdd_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswB_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWait_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWDinComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswDinComp_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWKidComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswKidComp_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_03TwoComp = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_04 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswA_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswB_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswC_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_05 = {Nikos}

 

[Tsakonas]

Requiem wrote

title_A00_Nikos_Spc_01 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswA_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswB_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_Spc_02A = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswAdd_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswB_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWait_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWDinComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswDinComp_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWKidComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswKidComp_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_03TwoComp = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_04 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswA_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswB_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswC_ = {Indianos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_05 = {Nikos}

I tried it but i think it works better with this way
title_A00_Nikos_Spc_01 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswA_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswB_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_Spc_02A = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswAdd_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswB_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWait_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWDinComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswDinComp_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWKidComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswKidComp_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03TwoComp = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_04 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswA_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswB_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswC_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_05 = {Nikos}

because if you seperate the NPC speeches and human answers
you will have Nikos PIPBOY preview screen:

NPC_01_Sppech_01
NPC_01_Sppech_02
NPC_01_Sppech_03

and for example at Indianos PIPBOY preview screen:
Human_01_Answer_01
Human_01_Answer_02
Human_01_Answer_03
Human_01_Answer_04

If you name all the titles Nikos you will have all the NPC speeches
and human answers at the same preview PIPBOY screen.
If you have more NPC for example Nikos,Tsakonas,Requim,Ryuga
it is important to name all the speeches of NPC Nikos and the posible human answers to Nikos.
If the NPC name is Ryuga name all the titles to Ryuga.
The same for Tsakonas,requiem.
Try it and you will see.


When i open the mission with the timer speech tree with world text it displays the first human answer without clicking on NPC.
What is wrong?
Edit1: I like the world text timer speech tree system.it is nice to see character photos when you talk but i have a question:If the human team has one member it is good system but if it has more than one character a squad of three characters.Lets say that the main character is hurt and cant move or they are seperated to different places in the map and so the second or third character must talk to NPC.Then the world text will display the answer with the photo of the main character and not the photo of the second or third party member .How this problem can be solved?
Using click speech system and renaming all the possible answers of human from indianos to human this problem is solved.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It's just a test mission, how modders set up their dialogue is totally optional. Personally I divided it by portrait with indianos' replies seperate to nikos'. Which allows you to see which option you did choose to take quickly.

The intial world text is displaying because ryuga added an action to show it in the very first trigger.

You can change the text (and photo) depending on which squad member is talking. You just need to determine which character is used and display a different world text. For instance have a zone around the npc and a trigger to see which recruit is in the zone when the speech occurred condition is met.

 

[ryuga]

Thanks for the feedback.

There's a known bug with modders working off different drives, the game can never find the text files and people need to reload them in the editor.

Loading the text file again makes the world text version work, but in the no variables version you need to also associate each click event with the speech file (i.e in the pull down list random 1 select the appropriate dialogue entry).

Looks like I will be working off C drive on tactics. I will update rar file with new versions saved from C drive later today with world tree titles suggested by requiem.

I didnt found any bug at Indianos timerspeech tree system(if you click at 0 sec it shows you again the speech tree.)
I think the bug is at the text it must write(First option 1-3 sec and no 0-3 sec.

You meant you did find a bug? You are right, the text in speech was originally marked as 1-3 sec, and the trigger was set up for >0, which won't kick off at 0 second. On the surface it may seem that the modified timer speech system is very similar to the original, there are subtle important differences. For example, instead of changing the trigger to >-1, I left the trigger at > 0 and changed the 1st counting position for the timer from 0 to 1. I use timer at 0 second as a holdover state and it will not trigger anything. By doing this and also adding a reset timer trigger, I was able to remove all timer variables and still have a functioning timer for the speech system.

=Edit=
Tsakonas, after rereading your text, I understand what you meant. The text 1-3 second is modified from 0-3 seconds by me from the original text file. If you want to see the original text file, you need to download from Indianos site which contains 0-3 seconds for choice A.

To me, if a player clicking a 0 second, and it gives the player the same speech again, what is the purpose? It serves no purpose, and that is why I took out 0 second from timer counting sequence. Conveniently, timer with 0 second is a great place for transition state.

Another issue with the original timer was the timer trigger had a 6 second wait action which was causing problem if the player clicks the NPC again too soon after a choice speech finishes. Basically the wait action was cleaning up the timer's original counting sequence , but the player already clicked next speech node. From that point, sometimes the FoT engine would still be using the old timer sequence to calculate timer position for the trigger which causes the player to be stuck in the same speech node while waiting for timer to kick off. The work around without the fix for the player is basically keep clicking the NPC to fire off the speech node, eventually the timer will kick off.



=Edit=
Finally caught up on the timer threads in DnC. Nice read, .

A couple issues from the the threads in DnC.

-------------------------------------------
Half second between two choices
-------------------------------------------
-------------
Problem
-------------
For example, Choice A is 1-3 second and Choice B is 4-6 second. The second between second 3 and second 4 is a gray area. Depends on the human response time, the player might get choice A for 1-3 second or choice B for 4-6 second. The timer display wasn't designed by Microforte for speech tree use. I encountered this last night as I was testing the timer logic, and haven't figured out a good way around this yet. Maybe possible with additional triggers, but that is related to another issue, which is less # of and less complex trigger is better for both developing and maintaining.

-------------
Workaround
-------------
Player doesn't click for the 1 second between the choices. Basically, don't click while the timer display is transition from 3 second to 4 second. This could be usability issue and maybe mitigated by proper tutorial, but as we all know, most consumers, whether game player or anyone, hardly read any warnings or tutorials, or manuals.


-------------------------------------------
Developability and maintainability
-------------------------------------------
Basically least number of triggers and least complex triggers.

The beauty of equipping item system by magnum and requiem is that it uses few triggers and the triggers are simple. I call it equipping item system instead of ABCD system because we can implement ABCD choices with timer, equipping item, JJ86's modified Endocore system on JJ86's website, or Izno's inventory notes system.

What magnum and requiem really did well with the speech tree design were the nodes and levels. Even though the design was not drawn out on paper (a picture is worth a thousand words), it was the most streamlined and simple. I will probably draw the speech tree nodes and levels design so other might have easier time picking up this wonderful speech tree node and level design.

From there, it was relative easy to implement the other systems. Basically the core speech nodes and branches remain the same, what is different between different speech systems are the conditions for the triggers of the speech nodes.

-Timer system,
--It is the timer counting second condition

-Equipping item
--Has equipped item condition

-JJ86
--Speech fired off from ABCD or Yes/No entities.

If you look into the modified timer system with no variables comparing with equipping item system (I will look into the other systems this weekend), it has one additional trigger per speech node that containing multiple choices. The additional trigger is the timer reset trigger which is necessary to remove all the variables in the original version by Indianos. One trigger is easier to maintain than x number of variables where x is the number of choices at the speech node. Actually Indianos was using two timer triggers per speech node as well, but one timer is for the 1st time counting and the other timer is for looping. The looping only timer wasn't necessary, a proper timer reset trigger is all it needs.

For the number of conditions and actions within the triggers, equipping item system and timer system are about the same, though equipping item system has a few more conditions if the fix for equipping two choice bug is implemented (which is not necessary due the uncommon nature of the bug).

For complexity, both systems are about the same once the modder understand the systems.

I will do some analysis of the other systems once I research (basically implementing and playing with it) this weekend.


-------------------------------------------
Speech Presentation Methods
-------------------------------------------
Basically whether to Display World Text or regular speech display.

This is not limited to any speech tree systems out there. Any system can implement either display world text method or regular speech display method.

So it basically comes down to personal preference. For tracking system, it is obvious useful for some people. With requiem's assigning title solution for world text, Display World Text is as good at tracking as the regular speech display.

Personally I prefer world text with tracking, mainly for the visibility of the speech text and larger possible size (300x200 for world text) for the display image to go with the speeches.

=Edit=
Actually speech display at the bottom can display large images, but scroll up and down to see parts of the image is not a good user experience.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Another issue with the original timer was the timer trigger had a 6 second wait action which was causing problem if the player clicks the NPC again too soon after a choice speech finishes.

By original timer do you mean indianos' version vs yours, or the first indianos version vs the second where the "Speech Tree with timer , looping which doesn't break" ?

One thing that Tsakonas brought up, the reply with the player's portrait. In a stand alone map that's fine since the modder dictates all the characters and their portraits, but in a campaign there's no way of telling the main character's portrait that I know of. In fact can you cut the entire reply? We didn't put the reply in MagnumOpus' speech tree as it wasn't needed and in Fallout once you pick a speech option it doesn't repeat the dialogue you chose, it just goes to the npc saying okay or done.

The other inherent problem with using a timer system is the player, if you click too late you can get the choose the wrong option. In the example map that's fine because most of the second options are innocent enough and offer another chance. But there's one that initiates combat by turning the npc hostile to the player, if the player clicks just at the wrong moment they've screwed up the mission. You could leave a gap between the options, choice 1 1-3 seconds, choice 2 6-9 seconds but there's still the chance of player error (slim but still there) and with MagnumOpus' system using just four icons and both equipment slots you can have up to ten replies to each dialogue. Reproducing that with timer systems based on Lisa2k's idea would have the player waiting for up to nearly a minute each time. Might not sound like much but a map with several dialogue npcs, each with their own trees, and those seconds start to add up, just waiting for the right moment to click or for missed opportunities.

 

[Tsakonas]

Original Fallout1,Fallout2 dialogue system works like this:
The NPC talks and then the Human always have to choose posible answers to exit from speech tree or repeat the same speech tree.
I played the original mission and the same way works with Indianos timer speech tree(if for example you ignore the timer the human player must choose the last possible answer and then the speech tree reloads again.)
In your way of sppech tree the human player if he ignores the timer is mute and just watch the speech tree to repeat.With this way you convert the speech tree multie choises system to original
fallout tactics click speech this isnt dialogue.
Like Fallout1 and Fallout2 always human player must choose a possible answer to continue or Exit the speech tree(Back,I will come back later.)This is the way a real dialogue works.
Edit1:For example if you have a situation that an NPC needs badly your help and use your way of speech tree ignoring the Timer you willsee what NPC wants from you without answer to him,so if always you ignore timer the NPC like a stupid brahmin will always repeat the speach tree without answer .
If NPC has problem of TIME and needs you its MUST to answer to him.Its MUST always the human to answer to each speech tree so you cant escape or exit from a speech tree without answering.

If you think that choose each time is a bug(even if you ignore timer) then and Fallout1,Fallout2,Baldure's gate which work always with the system the npc talks and human always answer is bug too.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

This isnt dialogue.
Like Fallout1 and Fallout2 always human player must choose a possible answer to continue or Exit the speech tree(Back,I will come back later.)This is the way a real dialogue works.
Edit1:For example if you have a situation that an NPC needs badly your help and use your way of speech tree ignoring the Timer you willsee what NPC wants from you without answer to him,so if always you ignore timer the NPC like a stupid brahmin will always repeat the speach tree without answer .

Unfortunately with out the source code we are faced with a problem of how does the player choose a dialogue option, there are several methods, talk to several different npcs, which option you choose dependant on who you clicked on, equip different icons such as choice a, b, c & d and then click on the actor again or watch a time count down/up and click at the appropriate time. I prefer the equip items because it feels more interactive, doesn't require stop starting lots of timers or moving (or activating/deactivating) lots of actors around. Plus it allows the player full control of when and what they reply to, but whatever system used the player is going to be able to walk away at any time unless the modder can set up a trigger to force the player to make a choice. Lets face it it's a tactical combat game and not an rpg any attempt at more in depth dialogue options is better than just click click clicking on an npc until they run out of things to say.

 

[ryuga]

Another issue with the original timer was the timer trigger had a 6 second wait action which was causing problem if the player clicks the NPC again too soon after a choice speech finishes.

By original timer do you mean indianos' version vs yours, or the first indianos version vs the second where the "Speech Tree with timer , looping which doesn't break" ?

Lol, his second version was still breaking, though probably on a much smaller scale meaning requires faster clicks.

One thing that Tsakonas brought up, the reply with the player's portrait. In a stand alone map that's fine since the modder dictates all the characters and their portraits, but in a campaign there's no way of telling the main character's portrait that I know of. In fact can you cut the entire reply? We didn't put the reply in MagnumOpus' speech tree as it wasn't needed and in Fallout once you pick a speech option it doesn't repeat the dialogue you chose, it just goes to the npc saying okay or done.

Yes, I can modify the timer system with no reply speeches. I will upload tonight. This way, there a lot less speech nodes, .

The other inherent problem with using a timer system is the player, if you click too late you can get the choose the wrong option. In the example map that's fine because most of the second options are innocent enough and offer another chance. But there's one that initiates combat by turning the npc hostile to the player, if the player clicks just at the wrong moment they've screwed up the mission. You could leave a gap between the options, choice 1 1-3 seconds, choice 2 6-9 seconds but there's still the chance of player error (slim but still there) and with MagnumOpus' system using just four icons and both equipment slots you can have up to ten replies to each dialogue. Reproducing that with timer systems based on Lisa2k's idea would have the player waiting for up to nearly a minute each time. Might not sound like much but a map with several dialogue npcs, each with their own trees, and those seconds start to add up, just waiting for the right moment to click or for missed opportunities.

I thought about what you mentioned about the seconds-gap issue and using 1-3 second and 5-7 seconds for choices, but didn't test it specifically last night.

Basically we have a synchronization issue with timer display, timer count in the engine and human response time. Leave 1 or 2 seconds between choices does sound good. Possible scenarios are below.

Player fast enough clicking 3
- Player get choice A

Player not fast enough clicking 3 (basically the engine thinks it is 4-second)
- Player get choice A (engine basically kept values the trigger fired off for 1-3 second choice.)

Player clicking for 4
- Player get choice A (engine basically kept values the trigger fired off for 1-3 second choice.)

Player too fast clicking 5
- Can't happen as the the synchronization issue is that human perception of the timer display and clicking for the corresponding timer second is always behind the timer display


Player clicking for 5
- Player get choice B

Now thinking it through, I like this idea, requiem. Again, thanks. I will just test it out tonight.


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Original Fallout1,Fallout2 dialogue system works like this:
The NPC talks and then the Human always have to choose posible answers to exit from speech tree or repeat the same speech tree.
I played the original mission and the same way works with Indianos timer speech tree(if for example you ignore the timer the human player must choose the last possible answer and then the speech tree reloads again.)
In your way of sppech tree the human player if he ignores the timer is mute and just watch the speech tree to repeat.With this way you convert the speech tree multie choises system to original
fallout tactics click speech this isnt dialogue.

This is can be easily done by removing reset clickable-speech action in choice trigger.

Like Fallout1 and Fallout2 always human player must choose a possible answer to continue or Exit the speech tree(Back,I will come back later.)This is the way a real dialogue works.
Edit1:For example if you have a situation that an NPC needs badly your help and use your way of speech tree ignoring the Timer you will see what NPC wants from you without answer to him,so if always you ignore timer the NPC like a stupid brahmin will always repeat the speach tree without answer.

I haven't played Fallout1 or 2 in ages, so I don't remember the details on the speech system in those games. I was thinking about playing Fallout 1 or 2 again, but I am afraid if I did that, I will stop modding here, .

From what you described about Fallout1 or 2 speeches, it seems that even though it is forcing you making a choice, really, the last choice usually is leaving without making a choice which is same as player walking away without making a choice the conversation restarts from the last speech node.

If you think about real life, you have a choice to leave with no real commitment most of the time. For the situations that requires making a choice such as being robbed on the way to vault city or giving protection money to walk away unharmed, we can always set up additional action or triggers as requiem suggested.

If NPC has problem of TIME and needs you its MUST to answer to him.Its MUST always the human to answer to each speech tree so you cant escape or exit from a speech tree without answering.

If you think that choose each time is a bug(even if you ignore timer) then and Fallout1,Fallout2,Baldure's gate which work always with the system the npc talks and human always answer is bug too.

What is choosing? Choosing not to choose is choosing, . It seems that you disagree with the implementation that the last speech node repeating if player choose not to choose any choices because it makes NPC look dumb. To me, it allows a repeating of the node if the player forgot the original speech choices are.

Of course, the same thing can be achieved by always having "Back" choice as the last choice and player always get that choice if the timer expires. By not implementing Back choice, that saves at least 1 set of triggers (Back set of triggers) at each speech node. That is 50% less triggers if there are only two choices, 33% less triggers if there are only 3 choices, etc.

The test map is not streamlined yet, hopefully with additional feedback, we can get there. Now I almost regretted not start modding Tactics back in 2001.

 

[Tsakonas]

Ryuga at the missions with no variables and worldtext you made the human mute when he ignores the timer or cant click during
the required time.I believe that variables needed to make a speech tree like Fallout1,Fallout2 even its difficult for most people to understand it.
Ryuga wrote:

Mission_Alpha_Original.mis
- Original (2nd version) by Indiano contains a few timing bugs and many redundant variables and actions. His 1st version was cleaner but was bugged probably because not taking into account that all satisfied triggers

I tested the original mission from indianos and there are no bugs.(i you click very fast it shows you again the speech tree of
NPC without damage the timer(the timer continius to count and you have the ability to choose any posible answer.In game there is no difference
with this.It would be a bug if the speech tree couldnt work or the timer whould reset again to 0 so there is no break.Break means something that dont executes the triggers.
All the triggers work fine nothing breaks download and try it.
In the version with no variables you wrote that works similar like original mission of Indianos big ingame difference in your version human is mute ignoring the timer.
You removed the variables and you damaged the speech tree system.
This is not improvement of Indianos speech tree its worst.
You cant make real speech tree like Fallout2 in Fallout Tactics without variables.
With Indianos speech tree system always the human player has opinion and can choose like a real RPG game and not a fake speech tree system.
If you name it speech tree must be a full speech tree and not something cripped calling it speech tree.
Where it says that it isnt must to have always the Human able to answer.
If you make the Human to answer and have opinion sometimes and other times to be mute without opinion you dont have speech tree
but its mixed monologue-dialogue.
You dont add something new but i think that its wrong to remove the variables and mute the human,But i must say that you know a lot about triggers and its good for
the modding community to have people like Ryuga.
Better try to change magnus-requiem system which needs less triggers without timer.
My personal opinion:Until now there are two good systems adding dialogue to fallout tactics the Magnus -requiem items tagg speech tree system and indianos timer speech tree system.
I like both each one has positive and negative characteristics.
These two speech tree systems are a long time suggested but i cant find any mod using them.Fallout tactics is a dead game everybody knows it .Very few people interest for it.
I think that the perfect speech tree system is like fallout 2 system
and the game needs the source code .
Maybe someone from interplay can give us the code for free or pissed off people will go to their offices with shotgun and demand the source codes for all fallout games(this is a joke will never happen).