Timer speech tree

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I tested the original mission from indianos and there are no bugs.(i you click very fast it shows you again the speech tree of
NPC without damage the timer(the timer continius to count and you have the ability to choose any posible answer.In game there is no difference
with this.It would be a bug if the speech tree couldnt work or the timer whould reset again to 0 so there is no break.Break means something that dont executes the triggers.
All the triggers work fine nothing breaks download and try it.

I've tried it and it is broken if the player has to start clicking fast or has to do this then it's broken;

Another issue with the original timer was the timer trigger had a 6 second wait action which was causing problem if the player clicks the NPC again too soon after a choice speech finishes. Basically the wait action was cleaning up the timer's original counting sequence , but the player already clicked next speech node. From that point, sometimes the FoT engine would still be using the old timer sequence to calculate timer position for the trigger which causes the player to be stuck in the same speech node while waiting for timer to kick off. The work around without the fix for the player is basically keep clicking the NPC to fire off the speech node, eventually the timer will kick off.

Player's should not have to vary their clicking to choose text. If you have to thump your tv set to get the picture to focus then something is wrong with the tv. If the timer system needs massaging then something is wrong with the timer system. But no surprise there since it came from indianos.

In the version with no variables you wrote that works similar like original mission of Indianos big ingame difference in your version human is mute ignoring the timer.
You removed the variables and you damaged the speech tree system.
This is not improvement of Indianos speech tree its worst.

I've already posted above, the no variables version doesn't have it's speech nodes associated with the text file, a simple error. The no variables with world text already shows proof of concept that the triggers work without variables as the only difference is it displays the world text.

You cant make real speech tree like Fallout2 in Fallout Tactics without variables.

No you don't, variables are just a means to an end a way of telling the game something has happened. Guess what, speech occurred is also a means to an end a way to tell the game something has happened. In theory you don't even need to use speech occurred when making a speech tree, if you weren't using click speech that is. This is just proof of concept, with the basic triggers done then it's up to each modder to implement it how they like. Adding in player responses or not.

With Indianos speech tree system always the human player has opinion and can choose like a real RPG game and not a fake speech tree system.
If you name it speech tree must be a full speech tree and not something cripped calling it speech tree.

Again proof of concept that you don't need variables, there's no reason that the player can't be made to say something when the timer resets. Indianos' triggers are bloated, too complex to implement for a large map with a lot of npcs and dialogue let alone a campaign. Do you even know what a speech tree is? It's not the text displayed or the history log but that the nodes link together and how they branch off into different events. Everything else is just window dressing. FOT has most of the set up needed for a speech tree but what it lacks is a way for the player to select a choice. That is what ryuga is experimenting with. Hell a speech tree test map doesn't need fancy tiling or a storyline, just a set of options that take you to other options or set off other triggers as consequences to show the system works. All the text needs to show is a leads to a1, a2, a3, a4, b leads to b1, b2, b3, b4 etc everything else is superfluous.

 

[ryuga]

Ryuga at the missions with no variables and worldtext you made the human mute when he ignores the timer or cant click during the required time.I believe that variables needed to make a speech tree like Fallout1,Fallout2 even its difficult for most people to understand it.

First of all, variables are not needed to make timer speech tree like Fallout 1/2. From Mission_Alpha_NoVariables.mis, you just need to remove the action of "Set Clickable Speech" from human answer choice triggers. By removing it, No variables mission should behave similar to Indianos' 2nd version of where when player is mute and the next time player clicking on NPC, the choice is the last choice available from the speech node just displayed.

Correction: The correct change is removing action of "Set Click Speech" from timer reset trigger.

Ryuga wrote:

Mission_Alpha_Original.mis
- Original (2nd version) by Indiano contains a few timing bugs and many redundant variables and actions. His 1st version was cleaner but was bugged probably because not taking into account that all satisfied triggers

I tested the original mission from indianos and there are no bugs.(i you click very fast it shows you again the speech tree of
NPC without damage the timer(the timer continius to count and you have the ability to choose any posible answer.In game there is no difference
with this.It would be a bug if the speech tree couldnt work or the timer whould reset again to 0 so there is no break.Break means something that dont executes the triggers.
All the triggers work fine nothing breaks download and try it.

I am not trying to bash Indianos or anyone, but a bug is a bug. A bug is either a defect from original business requirement or a defect from normal user expectation. I found two defects when testing Indianos second version which you need to download from his website. The Mission_Alpha_Original.mis in the rar I uploaded is Indiano's original .mis file, but using my modified speech text. The two bugs are following.

========
Bug 1
========
--------------
Reproduction
--------------
Timer displays 0 second and when player clicks NPC when timer is 0 seconds, it replays the speech node. The original speech text stating 0-3 second is choice A.

--------------
Result
--------------
Replay of speech node just played

--------------
Expected
--------------
Choice A

--------------
Requirement
--------------
What is the original requirement here? Using your specifications of Fallout 1/2, and from what I remember, Fallout 1/2 doesn't allow repeat of the node unless you reply "back" choice.

Using normal user expecation, which would be similar to above as most players are Fallout 1/2 veterans or Baldur's Gate.

Even without considering Fallout 1/2 design, when the speech text describing 0-3 seconds choice is A and when you click NPC when the timer is 0 second and you get a repeat of choice A, that is a defect.

I don't claim to know what Indianos' intention is here, that is whether he made a speech text bug (where it should be 1-3 second) or a trigger bug where 0 timer shouldn't be counted in sequence or even displayed.


========
Bug 2
========
--------------
Reproduction
--------------
Right after you click OK button to the speech node where multiple choices are displayed, click very fast (<= 1 second) on the same NPC again.

--------------
Results
--------------
You will sometimes get the the same speech node displayed again and the timer won't start. The timer will start again if you keep clicking NPC firing off the same speech node. How many time is random, but I suspect it depends on how fast the FoT engine cleans up the original timer counting sequence.

--------------
Expected
--------------
Choice A which is the first choice after the speech node is finished.

--------------
Requirement
--------------
Could be different requirements. Again the logic would follow the requirement for the above bug which is using Fallout 1/2 which doesn't allow repeat of speech node unless player reply "Back" choice.

This issue highlights the limitation of timer usage by Indianos, which namely using wait action to stop the timer. You could argue this is FoT engine issue (wait action with stop timer action sequence has a timing conflict with other stop timer action sequences), which is true. For modders, which means, don't use modding techniques that would expose the engine issue. I removed wait action, and using other action sequences that work well with each other.

In the version with no variables you wrote that works similar like original mission of Indianos big ingame difference in your version human is mute ignoring the timer.
You removed the variables and you damaged the speech tree system.
This is not improvement of Indianos speech tree its worst.
You cant make real speech tree like Fallout2 in Fallout Tactics without variables.
With Indianos speech tree system always the human player has opinion and can choose like a real RPG game and not a fake speech tree system.
If you name it speech tree must be a full speech tree and not something cripped calling it speech tree.
Where it says that it isnt must to have always the Human able to answer.
If you make the Human to answer and have opinion sometimes and other times to be mute without opinion you dont have speech tree
but its mixed monologue-dialogue.

Again, see my explanation above, removing variables has nothing to do with changing the speech system behavior on mute human choice. The original behavior on mute human choice by Indianos can be added back in easily (steps listed in my first paragraph).

My question is this. The original system behavior designed by Indianos can be seen in the following example.

Human talks to NPC
NPC replies and human has 3 choices
A Good.
B Bad.
C Back.
When the timer expires, and human can mute and walk away and not change anything. The only difference between Indianos' second version and Mission_Alpha_NoVariables.mis is that after timer expires, the Clicked Speech for the NPC is last choice of the speech node just displayed (Indianos) and the speech node just displayed (Mission_Alpha_NoVariables.mis). Indianos has always made the last choice as go back or leave, which in effect the same as replay the last speech node. Either way, the speech system implementation is flexible either way. Just add or remove the "set Clicked Speech for the NPC" action from human reply triggers.

You dont add something new but i think that its wrong to remove the variables and mute the human,But i must say that you know a lot about triggers and its good for
the modding community to have people like Ryuga.
Better try to change magnus-requiem system which needs less triggers without timer.

When I started modding FoT a week ago after playing Awaken thinking that I should try modding. I looked around for a working speech tree and ran across several different concepts. None were perfect and each one has its own shortcomings. The idea of timer started long time ago, I merely saw an implementation of it, and that the implementation can be streamlined and went for it.

Any speech systems have 3 parts, and you can switch those three parts with any of the namely system out there. For example, you can have display world text with JJ86 actor moving design with ABCD choices.

The system came up by magnus and requiem has three parts, just like the other systems. First part, its speech in-game presentation is great, maybe a few more things to be tweaked for each modder's own preference.

The second part is delivery system of player choice. This is where most systems diverge. Each one has its own pros and cons which are listed below.

The 3rd part is speech node and level design. This is where Magnus and requiem shine. From reading many other designs, none were thought as thoroughly as their design, at least from the tutorial perspective. I don't know if they know about tree data structure in computer science, but they did a good job designing it.
Tree data structure

======================
Speech in-game presentation
======================
-----------------------
Display world text
-----------------------
Pros:
- Visibility
- Large image without scrolling
Similar:
- Similar number of speech nodes in the mission file as normal speech display
Cons:
- Extra speech line for each speech node in the text file

-----------------------
Normal speech display
-----------------------
Pros:
- Has 1 less speech line for each speech node in the text file
Similar:
- Similar number of speech nodes in the mission file as normal speech display
Cons:
- Lower visibility than world text
- Large image needs scrolling
- Large amount of text needs scrolling


======================
Player Choice Delivery System
======================
-Timer system
--It is the timer counting second condition

-Equipping item
--Has equipped item condition

-JJ86
--Speech fired off from ABCD or Yes/No entities.

My personal opinion:Until now there are two good systems adding dialogue to fallout tactics the Magnus -requiem items tagg speech tree system and indianos timer speech tree system. I like both each one has positive and negative characteristics. These two speech tree systems are a long time suggested but i cant find any mod using them.Fallout tactics is a dead game everybody knows it .Very few people interest for it. I think that the perfect speech tree system is like fallout 2 system and the game needs the source code. Maybe someone from interplay can give us the code for free or pissed off people will go to their offices with shotgun and demand the source codes for all fallout games(this is a joke will never happen).

Source code would be nice to have. See this thread. Hopefully we can get some traction on this. I personally would love to have clickable world text window which would be an awesome player choice delivery system.
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44311

I agree the modding world is a bit deader than usual, especially since Fallout3 came out. There are still some modding projects out there, albeit going slowly.


But I am a die hard isometric view RPG player. Sure I loved Oblivions and Morrowind (that is for another topic), but like cotton candies you ate when you were a kid, it is just not the same when the cotton candies are in liquid form (instead of fluffy balls).

 

[Tsakonas]

Below i proove that is a lie that the timer reset or stops or breaks and not continiues normal with fast clicking.
Always when the click speech or world text the game is paused.
This is different thing than timer.
These are the conditions required for timer to reset and start again from the zero

(1) Nikos Spc01 occured (Timer-Loop)
Conditions
Speech Event Nikos_Spc01 Occured
if mission variable A_Looptimer is true

The speech event Nikos_Spc01 is the first speech tree of the NPC and becames true when you
click on the NPC Nikos.

The Second condition the variable A_Looptimer becames true only if you choose the last possible answer in the
speech node so this happens only if you choose the last possible answer and not with fast clicking.
Clicking very fast or not never affects timer.If you click very fast before 1 it shows you again the speech tree
but this a text mistake not a trigger bug.
I downloaded the Original mission from duckandcover forum and this is the original text of the mission:


A00_Nikos_Spc_01 = {<Co>Nikos:<Co><Cg> Hello stranger.Who are you?<Cg>

<Cb> Answers:<Cb>
<Cc>A(0-3sec) My name is Indianos and i am travelling to the wasteland.<Cc>

<Cy>B(4-6sec) Hi i will come back later when i will have time.<Cy> }
A00_Nikos_01HAnswA_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cc> My name is Indianos and i am travelling to the wasteland.<Cc> }
A00_Nikos_01HAnswB_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cy> Hi i will come back later when i will have time.<Cy> }
A00_Nikos_Spc_02A = {<Co>Nikos:<Co><Cg> Ok Indianos i need your help.My kid went to the forest to play and i afraid something terrible happened because it hasnt come back yet.I am a poor farmer and these creatures dinosaurs scare me.Can you find my kid and kill the dinosaurs?<Cg>

<Cb> Answers:<Cb>
<Cc>A(0-3sec) Ok i will help you friend.<Cc>
<Cy>B(4-6sec) Let me think it again.<Cy>}
A00_Nikos_02HAnswAdd_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cc> Ok i will help you friend.<Cc>}
A00_Nikos_02HAnswB_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cy> Let me think it again.<Cy>}
A00_Nikos_SpcWait_03 = {<Co>Nikos:<Co><Cg> What are you waiting Please finish the job.<Cg>}
A00_Nikos_SpcWDinComp_03 = {<Co>Nikos:<Co><Cg> You killed these wild animals but dont forget to find my son.<Cg>}
A00_Nikos_03HAnswDinComp_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cc> I killed the dinosaurs but i couldnt find your son.<Cc>}
A00_Nikos_SpcWKidComp_03 = {<Co>Nikos:<Co><Cg> What my son is dead these devils killed my boy but dont wait go and kill them.<Cg>}
A00_Nikos_03HAnswKidComp_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cc> I found your son dead but i didnt finish the Job with the Dinosaurs.<Cc>}
A00_Nikos_03TwoComp = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cc> All dinosaurs are dead and your son is dead too. <Cc>}
A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_04 = {<Co>Nikos:<Co><Cg> At last you killed these terrible creatures and you found my son. Its terrible to know that i am alone here without my child.<Cg>

<Cb> Answers:<Cb>
<Cc>A(1-3sec) I am glad i helped you.<Cc>
<Cr>B(4-6sec) I like to kill and smell blood.Its time to kill you.<Cr>
<Cy>C(7-9sec) Back.<Cy>}
A00_Nikos_04HAnswA_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cc> I am glad i helped you.<Cc>}
A00_Nikos_04HAnswB_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cr> I like to kill and smell blood.Its time to kill you.<Cr>}
A00_Nikos_04HAnswC_ = {<Cw>Indianos:<Cw><Cy> Back.<Cy>}
A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_05 = {<Co>Nikos:<Co><Cg> Thanks friend.<Cg> }
Q00_Nikos_Kill_dinosaurs = {Kill the dinosaurs who live in the forest.}
Q00_Nikos_Find_kid = {Find Nikos kid who lost in the forest.}



As you see in the last speech tree writes <Cc>A(1-3sec) I am glad i helped you.<Cc>
It seems Indianos forgot to correct the txt file ,so there is no trigger bug just a text mistake.
And you have done mistakes in you text too. Sometimes you write the human player as indiano and other as indianos.
And you did this mistake many times.
See below:


A00_Nikos_Spc_01 = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>Hello stranger. Who are you?\n\n
<Cb>ANSWERS:\n
<Cr>A (1-3sec) My name is Indianos and i am travelling around the wasteland.\n
<Cy>B (4-6sec) Hi, I will come back when I have time.
}


A00_Nikos_01HAnswA_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indiano: <Cr>My name is Indianos and I am travelling around the wasteland.
}


A00_Nikos_01HAnswB_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indiano: <Cy>Hi, I will come back when I have time.
}


A00_Nikos_Spc_02A = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>Ok Indianos, I need your help. My kid went to the forest to play, and I am afraid something terrible happened because he hasn't come back for awhile. I am a poor farmer and these dinosaurs scare me. Can you find my kid and kill the dinosaurs?\n\n
<Cb>ANSWERS:\n
<Cr>A (0-3sec) Ok, I will help you, friend.\n
<Cy>B (4-6sec) Let me think it about it.
}


A00_Nikos_02HAnswAdd_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indiano: <Cr>Ok, I will help you, friend.
}


A00_Nikos_02HAnswB_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indiano: <Cy>Let me think it about it.
}


A00_Nikos_SpcWait_03 = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>What are you waiting for! Please finish the job.
}


A00_Nikos_SpcWDinComp_03 = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>You killed these wild animals but dont forget to find my son.
}


A00_Nikos_03HAnswDinComp_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indianos: <Cg>I killed the dinosaurs but i couldnt find your son.
}


A00_Nikos_SpcWKidComp_03 = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>What, my son is dead! These devils killed my boy! Don't wait, go and kill them.
}


A00_Nikos_03HAnswKidComp_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indianos: <Cg>I found your son dead, but i didn't finish the job of killing Dinosaurs.
}


A00_Nikos_03TwoComp = {
<Jl><Cw>Indianos: <Cg>All dinosaurs are dead, and your son is dead too.
}


A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_04 = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>At last you killed these terrible creatures and found my son. Its terrible to know that I am alone here without my child.\n\n
<Cb>ANSWERS:\n
<Cr>A (1-3sec) I am glad that I helped you.\n
<Cy>B (4-6sec) Its better for a father to risk his life searching for his kid than doing nothing while waiting for help. Its time to die coward snake.\n
<Cm>C (7-9sec) Back.
}


A00_Nikos_04HAnswA_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indianos: <Cr>I am glad that I helped you.
}


A00_Nikos_04HAnswB_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indianos: <Cy>Its better for a father to risk his life searching for his kid than doing nothing while waiting for help. Its time to die, coward!
}


A00_Nikos_04HAnswC_ = {
<Jl><Cw>Indianos: <Cm>Back.}


A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_05 = {
<Jl><Co>Nikos: <Cg>Thanks friend.
}


// ===========================
// Objectives
// ===========================
Q00_Nikos_Kill_dinosaurs = {Kill the dinosaurs who live in the forest.}
Q00_Nikos_Find_kid = {Find Nikos kid who is lost in the forest.}



So it seems it is easy to do Text mistakes everyone can do mistakes.
You consider bug that everytime the human must answer to exit the speech tree but the real bug is when the human player
exits the speech tree without clicking and answer.
I will explain why this is a bug:
Ryuga i have a question for your suggestion to exit the speech tree without human player action when he ignores the timer.
If i ingore the timer 50 or 100 or 1000 times and each time the NPC will repeat the same speech tree without answer
from human how stupid this NPC seems 1000 times repeats the same thing without answer from human.
Sure this NPC has not the brain of a huaman but of a animal without logic or he is just a VCR player which is programmed
to do some action sure this is not a human.
In real life how many times a human can accept this bahavior to happen 1 , 2 , 5, times. I dont think that can accept it
many times.
Even a dog or a cat when he aproach a human needs human action .If the human ignores many times the dog or the cat these
animals will leave away.
For a human with a normal brain your suggestion (when the player ignores the timer many times to replay the speech node
without human action and response) seems very silly.
My personal opinion is that when a human talks to you in real life if you ignore him many times he will ignore you too.

Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 and fallout 3 needs HUMAN ACTION to exit the speech tree each time.Think that someone makes a patch
which will change these game so after a certain time the speech tree will close automaticaly without human action
(if the human doesnt choose a possible answer at the certain time).How many players will accept this.

Ryuga and requiem play again Fallout 1,2 or buy Fallout 3 to see what i mean with the speech tree.
I dont see as excuse that Fallout Tactics doesnt needed to be like fallout and fallout 2 speech tree system because is not a rpg but an action game.
The bug is not that the human is forced to answer each time to each speech tree.
The real bug is the mute player (ignoring the timer) and the stuped AI NPC machine thing repeating the same thing thousands times without human answer.

I wait an answer not just copy and paste my text.

These are the urls you uploaded two times the modified versions:
==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170459007/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html


==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170405196/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html

And something last where you downloaded the original mission Alpha tell me the url:
Can you post the original url from where you downloaded the Mission_Alpha and when you did it ?

 

[ryuga]

Below i proove that is a lie that the timer reset or stops or breaks and not continiues normal with fast clicking.
Always when the click speech or world text the game is paused.
This is different thing than timer.
These are the conditions required for timer to reset and start again from the zero

(1) Nikos Spc01 occured (Timer-Loop)
Conditions
Speech Event Nikos_Spc01 Occured
if mission variable A_Looptimer is true

The speech event Nikos_Spc01 is the first speech tree of the NPC and becames true when you
click on the NPC Nikos.

The Second condition the variable A_Looptimer becames true only if you choose the last possible answer in the speech node so this happens only if you choose the last possible answer and not with fast clicking.
Clicking very fast or not never affects timer.

Indianos' logic is quite fine on paper in the original second version; the logic would run fine if all the FoT engine components work well together. The problem is the FoT engine is flawed in integration of some actions, namely triggers with wait action and stop timer action integrating with other triggers with stop timer action. If I have time, I will post a video later on how to break Indianos' second version on the wait action integration.

If you click very fast before 1 it shows you again the speech tree but this a text mistake not a trigger bug.

Again, since you love speech implementation design of Fallout 1/2 so much, let us use that again. If you reply (in Fallout 1/2 is clicking the speech text in the window; in FoT timer speech design, it is clicking NPC again), Fallout 1/2 doesn't allow you replay the originating speech node unless you choose "Back" option. By claiming that it is only text errors, then the text should be changed to following without changing the triggers of original second version.

<Cb>ANSWERS:\n
<Cr>A (0 sec) Back.
<Co>B (1-3sec) I am glad that I helped you.\n
<Cy>C (4-6sec) Its better for a father to risk his life searching for his kid than doing nothing while waiting for help. Its time to die, coward.\n
<Cm>D (7-9sec) Back.

As you can see, it is quite awkward and not a good user experience/expectations => choice design defect.

I downloaded the Original mission from duckandcover forum and this is the original text of the mission:

As you see in the last speech (ryuga: Indiaos' second version) tree writes <Cc>A(1-3sec) I am glad i helped you.<Cc>
It seems Indianos forgot to correct the txt file ,so there is no trigger bug just a text mistake.
And you have done mistakes in you text too. Sometimes you write the human player as indiano and other as indianos.

Even with 1-3 sec as text instruction, the fact timer at 0 second is display and is clickable for user which leads to replay of the originating speech node is deviating from Fallout 1/2 speech design which can only loop if you choose "Back option". Since you clarified for us, Indianos made two speech text mistakes, then he made a timer starting point mistake of starting at 0 second instead of 1 second.

And you did this mistake many times.

Thanks for pointing out the text mistakes. I will correct them in the next revision.

So it seems it is easy to do Text mistakes everyone can do mistakes.

It is easy to make any kind of mistakes. But it is harder to find the kind of mistakes that you are not used to look for. Most developers (not just modders) are not good at finding textual mistakes.

You consider bug that everytime the human must answer to exit the speech tree but the real bug is when the human player exits the speech tree without clicking and answer. I will explain why this is a bug: Ryuga i have a question for your suggestion to exit the speech tree without human player action when he ignores the timer. If i ingore the timer 50 or 100 or 1000 times and each time the NPC will repeat the same speech tree without answer from human how stupid this NPC seems 1000 times repeats the same thing without answer from human.
Sure this NPC has not the brain of a huaman but of a animal without logic or he is just a VCR player which is programmed
to do some action sure this is not a human.
In real life how many times a human can accept this bahavior to happen 1 , 2 , 5, times. I dont think that can accept it
many times.
Even a dog or a cat when he aproach a human needs human action .If the human ignores many times the dog or the cat these
animals will leave away.
For a human with a normal brain your suggestion (when the player ignores the timer many times to replay the speech node
without human action and response) seems very silly.
My personal opinion is that when a human talks to you in real life if you ignore him many times he will ignore you too.

I explained how to resolve this issue in previous post. I repeat here: it is by removing the Set Click Speech in reset timer triggers in Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_WorldText.mis.

Ryuga and requiem play again Fallout 1,2 or buy Fallout 3 to see what i mean with the speech tree.
I dont see as excuse that Fallout Tactics doesnt needed to be like fallout and fallout 2 speech tree system because is not a rpg but an action game. The bug is not that the human is forced to answer each time to each speech tree. The real bug is the mute player (ignoring the timer) and the stuped AI NPC machine thing repeating the same thing thousands times without human answer.

I wait an answer not just copy and paste my text.

See my replies to your pasted text, . Or you want me to remove the Click Speech action from reset timer trigger and upload the file for you? I am working on a version with no human replies for requiem. I will include your request of "removing replay of originating speech node with mute human reply".


===Edit=== Since Tsakonas edited while I was replying

And something last where you downloaded the original mission Alpha tell me the url:
Can you post the original url from where you downloaded the Mission_Alpha and when you did it ?

I downloaded from his website several days ago. http://www.freewebs.com/pitoyras/Downloads/Mission_Alpha.7z

You can look at modified date on the Mission_Alpha_Original.mis file included in my rar which dates to Feb 7, 2008.

 

[Tsakonas]

I asked ryuga from you to post the url you downloaded the original mission alpha can you post it and when you download it

You said that you can remove the click speech from reset timer.
How the speech will reload again if you ignore the timer ?

Can i have a reply for this:
I wait you new version
Edit 1:

These are the urls you uploaded two times the modified versions:
==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170459007/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html


==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170405196/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html

In your rar the date is this:

I downloaded from his website several days ago. http://www.freewebs.com/pitoyras/Downloads/Mission_Alpha.7z

You can look at modified date on the Mission_Alpha_Original.mis file included in my rar which dates to Feb 7, 2008

In the original version the date is Feb 8 2008 time 00:31

In your download file is 7 feb Time 14:31
The mission are exactly same but how they have different hours ?
At Duckandcover forums :
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21054&sid=443dd6e0ea64bca5c4c944879b6ef08a

The Duckandcover time of the post indianos wrote for mission Alpha is Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:28 pm but duckandcover hour is -6 hours from gmt time so he posted it GMT time 8 feb 2008 time 02:28.
How you have this file before 8 feb and you downloaded it before some days ?

 

[ryuga]

I asked ryuga from you to post the url you downloaded the original mission alpha can you post it and when you download it

You said that you can remove the click speech from reset timer.
How the speech will reload again if you ignore the timer ?

Can i have a reply for this:

The logic for the timer loop and clickable speech in Mission_Alpha_NoVariables.mis with removal of the click speech action from reset timer trigger goes like this.

==============
Before timer starts
==============
Clickable speech for the NPC is the choice speech node
-------------------------
Example
-------------------------
<Cb>ANSWERS:\n
<Cr>A (1-3sec) I am glad that I helped you.\n
<Cy>B (4-6sec) Its better for a father to risk his life searching for his kid than doing nothing while waiting for help. Its time to die coward snake.\n
<Cm>C (7-9sec) Back.

==============
Timer trigger STARTS
==============
Between 1-3 seconds, the 1-3 choice A trigger will fire off and change NPC clickable speech from choice speech node to human choice A.

Between 4-6 seconds, the 4-6 choice B trigger will fire off and change NPC clickable speech from human choice A to human choice B.

Between 7-9 seconds, the 7-9 choice C trigger will fire off and change NPC clickable speech from human choice B to human choice C.

==============
Timer expires
==============
NPC clickable speech remains as human choice C. So if you click it, you will get human choice C reply, which is Indianos' second version behavior.


==============
Edit again since Tsakonas keeps editing even when there is a new post, .
=============
Tsakonas, can you stop editing when there are new replies? If we keep going, we will have quite bloated two posts.

New version is up.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170962114/TimerSpeechTree_WorldText_NoVariable_NoReply.rar

===============================================
Changelog (Dec.06,2008) <Ryuga>
===============================================
-----------------------------------------------
Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_NoReply_WorldText.mis
-----------------------------------------------
- Same as Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_WorldText.mis plus the following
- Removed all human replies in mission_Alpha_Text_WorldText_NoReply.txt
- Added some speeches in the text file for speech flows
- Removed all human replies speech nodes (only 5 speech nodes left, ; 1 for each level of speech tree) in the mission file
- Added titles for all speeches (they would be sorted by the Pipboy log by titles)
- Removed 1/4 of the triggers (they were used for human replies)
- Modified some triggers to accomandate the lost logic in human reply triggers (Human reply triggers had additional logic in them besides human replies)
- Reorganized the speech levels in the tree, mainly for developability and maintainability.
- Removing replay of originating speech node with mute human reply. Now human mute action will indicate that human choose the last reply. Requested by Tsakonas.

In the original version the date is Feb 8 2008 time 00:31

In your download file is 7 feb Time 14:31
The mission are exactly same but how they have different hours ?
At Duckandcover forums :
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21054&sid=443dd6e0ea64bca5c4c944879b6ef08a

The Duckandcover time of the post indianos wrote for mission Alpha is Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:28 pm but duckandcover hour is -6 hours from gmt time so he posted it GMT time 8 feb 2008 time 02:28.
How you have this file before 8 feb and you downloaded it before some days ?

The modified timestamp of the file is when the last time the file was modified. The timestamp was kept because the file was in an archived file. My guess the modified timestamp is when last time Indianos saved the file or copied it.

 

[Tsakonas]

I found and different modify time for the Dinosaur sprite too.
The original Dinosaur url is:
http://www.freewebs.com/pitoyras/Downloads/Mission_Alpha.7z
and has modified time 8 feb 2008 hour 00:52
and in your download

These are the urls you uploaded two times the modified versions:
==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170459007/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html

the modified time is 7 feb 2008 14:52
Dont delete the url so everyone can see that there is a differense
in modified time.
Can you explain this ?

 

[ryuga]

I found and different modify time for the Dinosaur sprite too.
The original Dinosaur url is:
http://www.freewebs.com/pitoyras/Downloads/Mission_Alpha.7z
and has modified time 8 feb 2008 hour 00:52
and in your download

These are the urls you uploaded two times the modified versions:
==============
Download File
==============
TimerSpeechTree file has 3 missions files.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170459007/TimerSpeechTree.rar.html

the modified time is 7 feb 2008 14:52
Dont delete the url so everyone can see that there is a differense
in modified time.
Can you explain this ?

My quick guess is that he is living in a time zone 14 hours ahead of me, . At least Microsoft is not bugging out on this time zone. The minutes matching is the clue here. Or rather, since you are looking at it, most likely you are living in 14 hours ahead of me.


====Edit=====
I will post a more streamlined version of Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_NoReply_WorldText.mis which will include 1 variable per timer to control the timer. The reason is re-usability of triggers. If triggers can be re-used often, that will save trigger writing time. On the other hand, a tighter and clearer design is needed so modders won't get lost.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It's probably due to whichever program you are using to extract from the archive and whichever one ryuga used to create the rar. 7-zip shows indianos' original versions as last modified on the 7/2/08 22.31 for me. Different programs, different archive types, maybe even different operating systems reading the time stamp differently, big deal.

 

[Tsakonas]

Ok i understand it.
Different GMT zones affects the modified time of the files inside archives.
You must be -8 GMT time Usa or Canada .
I found this because requiem is from England and has GMT time .

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Ryuga and requiem play again Fallout 1,2 or buy Fallout 3 to see what i mean with the speech tree.
I dont see as excuse that Fallout Tactics doesnt needed to be like fallout and fallout 2 speech tree system because is not a rpg but an action game.

It's not that it doesn't need to be, but it can't be without the source code. If we had the gui option to just click on the text to reply or exit as in Fallout 1&2, then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. Again this is just testing the ability to script a method for the player to select different choices. How it is utilized, how the conversation is ended is down to the modder who decides to use it. If they prefer the player mute or not is up to them. It has nothing to do with whether the triggers work or not. The test map just needs to show that different options can be picked in a quick and easy to understand manner without the player being able to break the system.

Ryuga I suggest you ditch indianos' map and just have a map with black floor tiles and the two actors. The text doesn't need a story just have the text say something descriptive about the system. something like;

start
option a go to option a1
option b go to option b1
option c exit speech
option d back to start

Then perhaps Tsakonas won't get so caught up in this little insignificant detail.

 

[Tsakonas]

Ryuga if in the No varriables mission Alpha delete the action set click speech for nikos to Nicos_Speech_01 at the reset timer action the human after times expires has the ability to answer like fallout and fallout 2 and he is never mute.
You must delete all the action set clickspeech for NPC at the reset timer action command.
I tested it and works fine.

Reguiem wrote:

Then perhaps Tsakonas won't get so caught up in this little insignificant detail.

For me is very important not just a detail
Why to have different exit and back to start possible answers too many triggers
Ryuga i wait from you to upload the Mission Alpha with the items tagged tree speech system to compare with timer speech tree to see which is better and easier for the player to use.

 

[ryuga]

Ryuga if in the No varriables mission Alpha delete the action set click speech for nikos to Nicos_Speech_01 at the reset timer action the human after times expires has the ability to answer like fallout and fallout 2 and he is never mute.
You must delete all the action set clickspeech for NPC at the reset timer action command.
I tested it and works fine.

Reguiem wrote:

Then perhaps Tsakonas won't get so caught up in this little insignificant detail.

For me is very important not just a detail
Why to have different exit and back to start possible answers too many triggers
Ryuga i wait from you to upload the Mission Alpha with the items tagged tree speech system to compare with timer speech tree to see which is better and easier for the player to use.

It was uploaded awhile ago and posted in several posts back. Here is the link again.
http://rapidshare.com/files/170962114/TimerSpeechTree_WorldText_NoVariable_NoReply.rar

===Edit===
You mean equipped items? I can tell you from modder perspective right now since I have done both with no human replies using speech tree level design by Magnus and requiem. I will come out with a basic map with both versions later. Indianos version takes too long to test, lol. Completing dinosaurs killing objective 10 times is not fun.

---------------
Equipped item with no variables
---------------
Pros
-No need to track timer

Cons
-Need to have additional speech in text file to represent parent node with multiple children that are also parent node themselves.
Because this method doesn't have timer counting seconds to be used as a variable to track horizontal positions of the nodes.
For those complex trees, it could use additional variables to manage those parent nodes with multiple children to decrease additional speech lines needed in text file.
Edit:: This is not too much a problem if there are not that many diverging branches in the tree. And it is always easier to write more speech text than tracking timers.


---------------
Timer with no variables
---------------
Pros
-Timer counting seconds can be used as a variable to store tree node position information (basically which x node that player is in at y level of speech tree)

Cons
-Keeping track of timers (which can be manageable as there is one timer per parent node with multiple children (that is the node has branching possibilities) and one possible variable to track the state of the timer)



============
Edit
============
Requiem,

In the Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_NoReply_WorldText.mis, I enlarged the timing for each answer to about 4-5 seconds each. Basically in the text instruction, it states such as below, but in the trigger, the ranges are 1-4, 5-9, and 10-12. I feel this maybe a little too long, especially when there are 4 answers. What do you think about 1-2, 5-6, 9-10, 13-14 text instruction with triggers at 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14? Are the ranges in text instruction too short?

<Cb>ANSWERS:\n
<Cr>A (1-3sec) I am glad that I helped you.\n
<Cy>B (6-8sec) Its better for a father to risk his life searching for his kid than doing nothing while waiting for help. Its time to die coward snake.\n
<Cm>C (10-12sec) Back.
-

 

[Tsakonas]

Ryuga you didnt understand what i wrote to my previous post.
I didnt ask to remove human reply but the opposite the human always to have a reply.
Modify the triggers to no variables version and delete the last action of each reset timer and play it.
Delete the action with the RED color i tested it and works fine.
This is what i mean.


(1) Reset Timer
Contitions

If timer Nikos_speech_01 is more than 6

Actions

Hide Timer Nikos_speech_01
Set to 0 to Timer Nikos_speech_01 and set ascending
Stop Timer Nikos_speech_01
Set Click Speech for unit Nikos to Nikos_Spc01


(2) Reset Timer
Contitions

If timer Nikos_speech_02 is more than 6

Actions

Hide Timer Nikos_speech_02
Set to 0 to Timer Nikos_speech_02 and set ascending
Stop Timer Nikos_speech_02
Set Click Speech for unit Nikos to Nikos_Spc02A


(3) Reset Timer
Contitions

If timer Nikos_speech_03 is more than 9

Actions

Hide Timer Nikos_speech_03
Set to 0 to Timer Nikos_speech_03 and set ascending
Stop Timer Nikos_speech_03
Set Click Speech for unit Nikos to Nikos_End04

 

[ryuga]

Ryuga you didnt understand what i wrote to my previous post.
I didnt ask to remove human reply but the opposite the human always to have a reply.
Modify the triggers to no variables version and delete the last action of each reset timer and play it.
Delete the action with the RED color i tested it and works fine.
This is what i mean.


(1) Reset Timer
Contitions

If timer Nikos_speech_01 is more than 6

Actions

Hide Timer Nikos_speech_01
Set to 0 to Timer Nikos_speech_01 and set ascending
Stop Timer Nikos_speech_01
Set Click Speech for unit Nikos to Nikos_Spc01


(2) Reset Timer
Contitions

If timer Nikos_speech_02 is more than 6

Actions

Hide Timer Nikos_speech_02
Set to 0 to Timer Nikos_speech_02 and set ascending
Stop Timer Nikos_speech_02
Set Click Speech for unit Nikos to Nikos_Spc02A


(3) Reset Timer
Contitions

If timer Nikos_speech_03 is more than 9

Actions

Hide Timer Nikos_speech_03
Set to 0 to Timer Nikos_speech_03 and set ascending
Stop Timer Nikos_speech_03
Set Click Speech for unit Nikos to Nikos_End04

What do you want to know on the comparison of equipping item and the timer systems? If you want the player experience, do you have a copy of Mad Max and Dog tutorial mission for equipping item system? If you do, you can just compare that mission with Alpha Mission map. If you don't, I can send you a different mission with equipping item system I made several days ago. The only difference between a version with human replies and no human replies within a speech system is that the version with human replies will contain a lot more triggers and speeches.

I already listed my modding experience so far with both system in my last reply.

 

[Tsakonas]

I removed the same one action from all Reset timer triggers.
Also i changed the Indiano to Indianos and i added to world text
file this at the bottom of it so at the Preview PIPBOY screen you have together NPC speeches and human answers to this NPC.

title_A00_Nikos_Spc_01 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswA_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_01HAnswB_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_Spc_02A = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswAdd_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_02HAnswB_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWait_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWDinComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswDinComp_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcWKidComp_03 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03HAnswKidComp_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_03TwoComp = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_04 = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswA_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswB_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_04HAnswC_ = {Nikos}
title_A00_Nikos_SpcEnd_05 = {Nikos}

You must target the Fallout tactics install directory

===============================================
Install Notes (Dec.04,2008) <Ryuga>
===============================================
Extract the files under Fallout Tactics folder. Run Tactics with the following path. Example is below.
F:\Games\FalloutTacticsModding\BOS.exe -path speechtree

The mission files are inside the Alpha folder and not at mission alpha folder.
Can you tell me if it finds the text without you to import it again.I tested at 2 PC the one has Fallout Tactics at D drive and the other at E drive and from one to the other PC the mission finds aytomatically the path.You dont need to open the tools and import again the text files.

The URL is:
http://rapidshare.com/files/171022843/speechtree.7z

Just removing one action from Reset timer trigger and the Humanis never mute,has always the ability to answer to the NPC even if he ignores the timer.
There are two missions in the 7-ZIP the one with no variables-click speech and the other with no variables-world text .
I like more the the no variables with world text.

 

[ryuga]

I removed the same one action from all Reset timer triggers.
Also i changed the Indiano to Indianos and i added to world text
file this at the bottom of it so at the Preview PIPBOY screen you have together NPC speeches and human answers to this NPC.

I checked out your changes. Looks pretty good. The problem with current implementation of human replies is that it pretty much doubles the number of branching triggers, which can be a lot for a decent size of speech tree. Maybe we can come up with a better implementation.

You must target the Fallout tactics install directory

===============================================
Install Notes (Dec.04,2008) <Ryuga>
===============================================
Extract the files under Fallout Tactics folder. Run Tactics with the following path. Example is below.
F:\Games\FalloutTacticsModding\BOS.exe -path speechtree

The mission files are inside the Alpha folder and not at mission alpha folder.
Can you tell me if it finds the text without you to import it again.I tested at 2 PC the one has Fallout Tactics at D drive and the other at E drive and from one to the other PC the mission finds aytomatically the path.You dont need to open the tools and import again the text files.

I had no problem running the mission file. Didn't need to import the speech text file. I ran with the exact path listed above.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

For me is very important not just a detail

Yes I gathered that, but in terms of designing the basic mechanics of a tree it is unimportant. What is important is that we have a method that presents the player with a multiple choice. That there is a method that allows the player to easily select an option from that multiple choice, without any confusion. And that the mechanic of choosing always always leads to the option chosen, not to the next choice not back to the first element but if they click for option a they get option a, and if they click for option b they get option b.

That is what the speech tree test map should show, what happens when the player makes their choice is purely down to the preference of the modder setting up the system. Be it giving rewards, displaying further text options, initiating combat, going back to the previous option, displaying a player reply. All that is irrelevant since FOT already can handle doing different things for different speech events, what it can't do by itself is allow the player to make the choice in the first place.

Once the modder knows the basics of how to trigger the choices then they can adjust the system to suit their needs. But first we need to have a foolproof system tested to destruction, and for that whether the player is mute or not is irrelevant.

In the Mission_Alpha_NoVariable_NoReply_WorldText.mis, I enlarged the timing for each answer to about 4-5 seconds each. Basically in the text instruction, it states such as below, but in the trigger, the ranges are 1-4, 5-9, and 10-12. I feel this maybe a little too long, especially when there are 4 answers. What do you think about 1-2, 5-6, 9-10, 13-14 text instruction with triggers at 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14? Are the ranges in text instruction too short?

To be honest I don't know, it depends too much on the player reactions. It's a fine balance between allowing for those with slower reactions without alienating those with lower attention spans.

Edit now that rapidshare has let me download the files, I think the overlap might cause some confusion if the player is clicking to soon for option b rather than too late for option a. I mean it's fine for this test with only two options the latter being harmless but for a more complex dialogue it could cause heartache. Perhaps a better idea is to have it with the timer matching the text but leaving a dead space of a second between options? Or would that cause confusion when nothing happens? This is the problem with using a speech tree based on a timer when there's a delay between the internal timer and the display. Perhaps it would be better to not show the timer and instead use the force speech to show floating text above the npc saying click now for option a etc.

Edit 2, nah that won't work I was forgetting that there's a bug which crashes the game if the condition is speech occured and the action is force speech.

 

[ryuga]

All right. I got this baseline version of timer speech tree that you guys can beat on it. Just as requiem suggested, two actors with basic lines. Let me know if anything breaks. This tree is quite big. 4 levels and first level started with 4 nodes with 2 parent nodes with 4 children each. Same pattern repeats at each level of the tree, and at the 4th level, there are 16 results which is 2 to the 4th power, .

I will remake same map with equipped items later tomorrow.

Getting late here. Thought you guys might love testing a system on a lovely Sunday afternoon.

http://rapidshare.com/files/171075615/SpeechTree_Timer_BaselineMap.rar

 

[Tsakonas]

Ryuga are you a programmer?


A question because the text is difficult i understand right or wrong your trigger because you use only one photo at your text.
Human has ability to answer or i cant see it because of the text.
Can you make a simple text like to understand it
For Example:
Which is the capital of Germany
Which is the capital of Italy

or anything simple and quick.