To date, my favorite gun ever invented

[Demonslayer]

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=xtY9rpg0Mdk[/youtube]

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=gMXlQqkpMzo[/youtube]

Ok, a bit cliché but..

 

[SuAside]

oh for fucks sake, a gold Desert Beagle...

 

[verwandlung]

I always found the H&K G11 pretty interesting:


http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPfBr_B78o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G11

 

[Ah-Teen]

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=gMXlQqkpMzo[/youtube]

Ok, a bit cliché but..

What would you bet he's never fired it. Which he should. Cause the D beagle is a fantastic weapon.

But hell gold plating? That is a little more than a bit cliche.

Provided the war would be fought at close quarters. Unlikely.

Iraq? Urban? I'd probably stick with a rifle if your in a hummer, but if your in a building, I'd totally go for a shotgun.

I do believe we already had a similiar thing produced, and it was caled Pancor Jackhammer.

it was never actually produced.

As for the shotgun in question. It looks great. I don't like how the magazine goes in and I don't like drums which are a total waste of space. but the internals look simple and simple is good in my opinion. Needs a shit load of rails on it and the sights look real flimsy.

Drums vs box: four 20rd drum three of which are somewhere on your person, most likely two on your sides and one on your back as to not get in the way too much. Thats 80 rounds in heavy containers placed in awkward positions. Box mag. Probably 10 rounds in a mag of similar width and length of an m16 mag. That is two in each mag pouch. four mag pouches on front in easily accessable places. 20 40 60 80 rounds of easily accessable ammunition in light weight containers. Only difference is your swapping magazines every 10 shots rather than every 20. But your swaping them in a third the time.

I hate drum mags.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

What would you bet he's never fired it. Which he should. Cause the D beagle is a fantastic weapon.

But hell gold plating? That is a little more than a bit cliche.

Provided the war would be fought at close quarters. Unlikely.

Iraq? Urban? I'd probably stick with a rifle if your in a hummer, but if your in a building, I'd totally go for a shotgun.

I do believe we already had a similiar thing produced, and it was caled Pancor Jackhammer.

it was never actually produced.

As for the shotgun in question. It looks great. I don't like how the magazine goes in and I don't like drums which are a total waste of space. but the internals look simple and simple is good in my opinion. Needs a shit load of rails on it and the sights look real flimsy.

Drums vs box: four 20rd drum three of which are somewhere on your person, most likely two on your sides and one on your back as to not get in the way too much. Thats 80 rounds in heavy containers placed in awkward positions. Box mag. Probably 10 rounds in a mag of similar width and length of an m16 mag. That is two in each mag pouch. four mag pouches on front in easily accessable places. 20 40 60 80 rounds of easily accessable ammunition in light weight containers. Only difference is your swapping magazines every 10 shots rather than every 20. But your swaping them in a third the time.

I hate drum mags.

Every infantry man wants a rifle weighing less then a pound, less then a foot long, good to 800 meters, and never runs out of ammo. You can meet some of these goals some of the time, but all of them, never.

That said, my personal preference for a CQB is a 10.5 - 12.5" M16, like the Mk 18 variant. It's good out to two hundred yards or more, easy to manuever in and out of a vehicle, and much easier to clear a room with then a 16" barrel.

Shotguns are nice, and I like the Saiga concept, but I really think they serve a limited role in squad-based CQB. Too much unaccounted lead. I'd rather have a high volume of aimed fire. One shotgun operator is generally plenty.

There are a lot of good shotguns out there, but the combination of rate of fire, capacity, and durability is severely lacking compared to other options.

In theory, I would think the bullpup would be the best configuration for infantry. More barrel, longer range, more compact size. Unfortunately, I've never seen one in mass execution that is significantly better then anything else out there. The closest was probably the Aug. More typical, though, is the abysmal performance of the SA80.

So, as "old" and "dated" as it is, I'd stick with my direct impingement M4 over anything else out there at the moment.

 

[Ah-Teen]

I've heard the L85 is a damn good rifle now that the bugs have been worked out. Sorta like the M16 when it first came out.

 

[SuAside]

That said, my personal preference for a CQB is a 10.5 - 12.5" M16, like the Mk 18 variant. It's good out to two hundred yards or more, easy to manuever in and out of a vehicle, and much easier to clear a room with then a 16" barrel.

performance of a SS109 out of such a short barrel (10.5") is pretty bad. hell, if you dont intend to use it outside 150m or so (and CQB with it a lot), you might as well go for a P90, giving you maneuvrability, high magazine capacity, extremely low recoil, high reliability and a clean running weapon to boot.

of course, at extended range it becomes useless.

In theory, I would think the bullpup would be the best configuration for infantry. More barrel, longer range, more compact size. Unfortunately, I've never seen one in mass execution that is significantly better then anything else out there. The closest was probably the Aug. More typical, though, is the abysmal performance of the SA80.

you should give the FN F2000/FS2000 a try. surpasses the AUG as far as i'm concerned.

 

[Carib FMJ]

Kimber Custom II... I love that gun.

 

[SuAside]

Kimber Custom II... I love that gun.

do you have one?

i've long looked at those (and the more pricey Kimber Eclipse Custom 10mm), but they're simply too expensive out here to justify their purchase.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

Only thing that doesn't kill you is a shot in the foot.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

performance of a SS109 out of such a short barrel (10.5") is pretty bad. hell, if you dont intend to use it outside 150m or so (and CQB with it a lot), you might as well go for a P90, giving you maneuvrability, high magazine capacity, extremely low recoil, high reliability and a clean running weapon to boot. Of course, at extended range it becomes useless.

Meh, SS109 may not be too great, but M855 is fine. Plenty of my friends in the sandbox doing just fine with the 10.5s. Fragmentation isn't everything.

I've used the P90 and PS90 quite a few times. The recoil characteristic is excellent, making it quite controllable on full auto. I like the capacity as well. I just don't like the little tiny bullets. Our local swat team had 'em, and liked 'em well enough until they had to use them for real. The number one complaint was the number of rounds fired before the perp stopped. Not that the round isn't lethal, just that it took too long for the perp to know it. They subsequently switched back to the M4.

My only other gripe about the P90 is the damned integrated optic is no where near bright enough, and the rail for mounting a better optic is way too high off the bore. However, I do think that the P90 is a fine gun, and if someone other then FN ever starts pumping out 5.7 in more then novelty quantities, I will pick up a PS90.

One of my best shooting buddies has one, and loves it. Thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

you should give the FN F2000/FS2000 a try. surpasses the AUG as far as i'm concerned.

Yeah, I've played with the FS2000 quite a bit, and thought long and hard about purchasing one. The things I don't like about it are that the mags don't drop free, it feels too bulky, and the accuracy, while good, isn't what I'd like it to be out of a 20" barrel. It will probably rank up there with the SL-8 as space-aged plastic guns I will vaguely regret not having purchased in a few years.

Hopefully, I got all the snippets of your post correct and didn't misquote you on anything. If I missed something, let me know.

 

[GreyViper]

Anybody know how M16 compares to G36? I have heard that G36 should be somewhat better then M16, but that might be hearsay.

 

[Ah-Teen]

it is better. Thats what the XM8 was all about. But it was failed because HK didn't want to build a factory here. Thankfully, since in my humble opinion it held like crap. URGanomics FOR THE WIN!

 

[GreyViper]

Really I thought the XM8 flop was all about the low grade polymers used on the weapon. So when used on full burst the plastic would start melting. Hmm but the factory one makes more sense.

 

[fallout ranger]

Our weapons are fine, I just think there should maybe be a designated marksman with an M14, instead of an M16. even that isn't necessary though, and complicates the ammuniton situation.

 

[SuAside]

I just don't like the little tiny bullets.

you do realise that the bullet of the SS190 (the military/LE 5.7mm round) is just as big as the M855 or SS109? you can use light 5.56mm bullets to reload your 5.7mm brass.

Our local swat team had 'em, and liked 'em well enough until they had to use them for real. The number one complaint was the number of rounds fired before the perp stopped. Not that the round isn't lethal, just that it took too long for the perp to know it. They subsequently switched back to the M4.

i'd expect to hear that from normal police officers, not a SWAT team.

SWAT should know that shotplacement is everything. a great many of the reported shootings with the P90 or the FiveseveN were finished with a single shot. this of course mostly because the people using it are extremely highly trained (and both FiveseveN and P90 lend themself well to accurate shots).

it's obvious that the P90 will fail if you treat it like an M4.

My only other gripe about the P90 is the damned integrated optic is no where near bright enough, and the rail for mounting a better optic is way too high off the bore.

didnt FN USA start selling another sight for that in the US? i believe they call it the USSS sight, because that's what the US Secret Services uses.

the whole integrated optics thing appears to be simply because we have less hard lighting conditions in europe, thus arent bothered by your gripes.

However, I do think that the P90 is a fine gun, and if someone other then FN ever starts pumping out 5.7 in more then novelty quantities, I will pick up a PS90.

novelty quantities?

it's produced by 3 large suppliers atm, and is far less likely to experience a shortage than 5.56mm, as it has already proven.

One of my best shooting buddies has one, and loves it. Thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

personally i dislike the PS90 because it just beats the purpose of the P90... the weapon just requires a 2 stage trigger (semi + auto), short barrel,... i dont see the use as a carbine (other than novelty).

Yeah, I've played with the FS2000 quite a bit, and thought long and hard about purchasing one. The things I don't like about it are that the mags don't drop free, it feels too bulky, and the accuracy, while good, isn't what I'd like it to be out of a 20" barrel. It will probably rank up there with the SL-8 as space-aged plastic guns I will vaguely regret not having purchased in a few years.

well, it's simple military grade accuracy, not Match AR15 accuracy. simply wasnt meant to be.

PS: FS2000 is 17", F2000 is 15" (give or take)

it is better. Thats what the XM8 was all about. But it was failed because HK didn't want to build a factory here. Thankfully, since in my humble opinion it held like crap. URGanomics FOR THE WIN!

the project failed because:
1) the polymers used melted under heavy stress
2) the accessory rails did not fit any known standard (HK wanted to make some extra money)
3) the design was nothing spectacular at all

 

[JohnnyEgo]

Well, SuA, I can only tell you what I know. I know I sold the M4s to the Jacksonville Sherriffs Office. I know they told me they bought them to replace the P90, and I told you the reason why.

Our SWAT team is made up of local officers, and is not a dedicated team. However, they are good shooters, and I trust the opinion they have of their gear, since they trust it enough to stake their life on it.

I realize quite well exactly what caliber the 5.7 is, and exactly how much powder it has behind it. Doesn't matter what the FPS or penetration is if the energy is not conveyed to the body. The 5.7 has a lot of penetration. Great. It does not have a tendency to tumble, yaw, or fragment on impact. It goes in quick and comes out quick.

Furthermore, 5.7 is not available in the states in great quantities. You can get it at a couple of gun ranges, but it's not everywhere. Whereas, despite the fact that 5.56 is in such demand, I can walk into any of the 32 Walmarts in the city and pick up a box of it.

The Secret Service sight is indeed a big improvement from the stock sight, but it still leaves a lot to be desired compared to the EOTech, Aimpoint, ACOG, and other battle proven illuminated sighting systems. You can incorporate those much better sights, but they still sit way too high off the bore. And I've been all over Europe, and you have just as many bright places in which to experience washout as we do.

While I do have a precision AR, I can shoot my 16" stock Colt 6920 with a higher degree of precision then an FS2000. You could say that is because I am more familiar with the M4 family. Fair enough. But I can also outshoot the guy who owns it with that same M4. And as much as he loves his FS2000, he agrees with me on the accuracy issue.

Regarding the PS90, it was produced by FN to meet our civilian requirement of a semi auto rifle with 16" barrel. Our civilians are not allowed to own a full auto firearm made after 1986, and having a sub 16" barrel requires a permit that most do not bother to get.

Generally when it comes to guns, I try to stick to my own experiences, and I state them as such. I certainly like FN's products. I have both the PSS and SLP Winchester clones, as well as a High Power. I even like both the P90 and the FS2000. However, in my country, they both compete directly against the M4 for the same role. I, and most of the professional users I know, prefer the M4. For civilian shooting, though, they are all great guns.

 

[SuAside]

I realize quite well exactly what caliber the 5.7 is, and exactly how much powder it has behind it. Doesn't matter what the FPS or penetration is if the energy is not conveyed to the body. The 5.7 has a lot of penetration. Great. It does not have a tendency to tumble, yaw, or fragment on impact. It goes in quick and comes out quick.
Furthermore, 5.7 is not available in the states in great quantities. You can get it at a couple of gun ranges, but it's not everywhere. Whereas, despite the fact that 5.56 is in such demand, I can walk into any of the 32 Walmarts in the city and pick up a box of it.

you're wrong on that:
- penetration is not great. yes, it penetrates bodyarmor like a hot knife through butter, but it does not act the same way in flesh. it stops quite early compared to other similar rounds (and thus dumps all the energy inside the body, instead of exiting it). it was specifically designed to do so in an attempt to minimise collateral damage dude to overpenetration. as such, it never 'comes out quick'.
- the SS190 is a tumbler, but does not fragment at all.
- various shortages of 5.56mm have already been reported, causing LE to cut back on their training to save ammo! this has never been the case for 5.7 and it is always available. sure, not every supermarket and gunstore stocks it, but that's not the issue as far as i'm concerned. it's general and continued availability.

And I've been all over Europe, and you have just as many bright places in which to experience washout as we do.

well, even in spain (which is probably the "brightest" place in europe), no one seems to have a problem with the standard sight. and a shitload of police and special forces units use it, so it seems it works just fine for us.

either way, i just gave you the official FN reason as to why the sight doesnt seem to be adequate for americans.

While I do have a precision AR, I can shoot my 16" stock Colt 6920 with a higher degree of precision then an FS2000. You could say that is because I am more familiar with the M4 family. Fair enough. But I can also outshoot the guy who owns it with that same M4. And as much as he loves his FS2000, he agrees with me on the accuracy issue.

i didnt deny this at all.

inherent accuracy is higher in an M16 and an AR15 is much more easily accurised. but that wasnt my point. while far from being so extreme as the AK that shoots "minute of capitalist", the F2000 trades a tiny bit of accuracy for added reliability (and other things). i'm sure the much heavier trigger does not help accuracy when pitted against the AR15s, but it wasnt meant to be a DMR, it's a G.I. weapon.

 

[Cromlech]

Very nice shotguns, those.

All this talk of firearms brings back good memories from the Cadets. I enjoyed using the L86A1 once I got to three-star training level, the accuracy with that thing is just phenomenal.