Way to North - content and item balancing with some Q/A

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Flamer uses NONE arc And no damage radius, so it's hardcoded, i suppose...

Grenades use NONE arc (some of them STRAIGHT through ), but they have damage radius. Need to experiment with this..

Flamer would use no arc otherwise the projectile sprite doesn't show up. Damage radius is for splash damage from a single 'bullet', so with a radius of 0 only the target gets hit (presuming a successful attack) damage radius of 1 then anyone within 1 tile also takes damage. So you can throw a grenade at the ground and anyone within it's damage radius will take damage.

If BURST width would be really consistant, my guys would be dead many times...

You're not taking into account that each projectile must make a chance to hit dice roll, just because they are in the same spread arc and even if you are using duplicates of the same target doesn't mean that they will all get hit all the time. But yeah cone is definitely different from the other arcs. Say you fire a burst of 5 rounds, then you can only hit a maximum of 5 targets with 'burst' or 'spray' but I certainly remember hitting more than that with a burst from the Pancor. Maybe cone multiplies each projectile the further away the target is, but I definitely remember a test firing of a shotgun against a group of closely packed targets and seeing a definite V pattern of those that got hit. With those outside the narrow point of the V (closest to the pc) never taking any damage.

 

[jarekfall]

Flamer uses NONE arc And no damage radius, so it's hardcoded, i suppose...

Flamer would use no arc otherwise the projectile sprite doesn't show up.

I noticed in the game's executable code that flamer fuel ammo adds to a weapon a cone spread arc.

 

[TwoEyedYum]

Seems to be closer to reality And what is so special about 2mm EC, that it cannot be open in FT tools? BoS EE shows nothing special...

http://yfrog.com/jpfbos0001j

Now, let me explain - west guy carries Steyr and stays far from manekens, so he hits them all, targeting at BLUE dummy. Dummies here stayed in close lines, so first line were hit first (huh). All is logical.

Now for east one - HW guy stays close to dummies and... Shoots GREEN dummy (maybe, you see it killed but still green tinted) with M249 (45 range, burst arc). Bullets randomly hit 2-3 targets, but thos dummies near him NEVER get hit for around 50 bursts! BURST' arc width seems to be NOT same along range. It isn't hit chance dice or something else - they are just out of line'o'fire.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

All the ammo and enhancers that were patched aren't accessible in the editors. Either you'll have to make new versions from scratch or just (in your custom directory) make a dummy entity with the same file name and use that to place the item, and then delete it afterwards.

 

[TwoEyedYum]

Another test here. Now you can see state of things before any shooting - bunch of dummies, red ones used for targeting HWS' M249.

http://yfrog.com/b8fbos0002j

Something like 460 bullets used (46 bursts). Further shots did nothing, as i think other dummies still out of firing angle. Judge by yourself. Result:

http://yfrog.com/b8fbos0003j

On another start i took shotgun and spread arc was the same. But most dummies in V-arc (limited to 14 range) were killed in one shot.

So:
1) Spread arcs of BURST and CONE have same V-shape. Also they hit targets on several levels, while targeting same single target. The only difference is

...cone multiplies each projectile the further away the target is...

And that seems to be proven. Thanks for attention, Req. You are bright star who inspires me to make some testes instead of sitting and doing nothing

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Now, let me explain - west guy carries Steyr and stays far from manekens, so he hits them all, targeting at BLUE dummy. Dummies here stayed in close lines, so first line were hit first (huh). All is logical.

How far away? The image isn't showing up, but if he hit all the dummies did he hit the blue one? If not then you've encountered the burst bug. Where if the target's armour class is too high, or just out of range for the weapon then you'll miss the target but hit everyone else in a range of 6x6 tiles (iirc).

1) Spread arcs of BURST and CONE have same V-shape.

Is that a test weapon or one of the defaults? If the former what range is the weapon set at, i.e. short, long, scoped etc? I did have a test map set up similar and saw targets get hit much more randomly with burst and spray. I'll get my old pc down tomorrow and double check.

 

[TwoEyedYum]

In case of steyr you probably see, that metal-armored guy stays quite FAR from first line. If i've added more dummies to sides, we would see... Anyway, i made more clear test in last post. OH SHI, you can't see it cause i've fucked up first pictures... UPDATED

There used normal M249. It wasn't modded unlike other weapons in my WtN mod. 20-30 damage, BURST spread arc and 45 max range (short type). No burst bug, through Heavy Guy was not able to hit red targets, until main bunch in V-shape area taken down. I think it's normal, cause penetrating bullets weren't implemented in FoT

Also repeated tests with M249 and ithaca shotgun several times. Shotguns still kills many dummies in almost one shot (target dummy in that case doesn't have much AC, does it?)

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

In the second set of screenshots which is the target dummy? And are you stopping the test as soon as the target dummy is killed?

The maximum arc might be that same for burst, cone and spray, with the same range. Burst though is more likely to be more closely grouped along a shallower arc while spray is more spread out and cone is uniform. Plus with cone, a single projectile can hit every target within it's arc (if pass armour class).

 

[TwoEyedYum]

which is the target dummy?

Red ones, they all stay in same direction, so guy fired in same direction all the time.

And are you stopping the test as soon as the target dummy is killed?

Well, when all RED targets died, i just CTRL-RightClicked on ground between red dummies to maintain firing angle. Test stopped after 46 bursts, as i said already. I didn't added more than that amount to map

Burst though is more likely to be more closely grouped along a shallower arc while spray is more spread out and cone is uniform.

In my test BURST spread looks like exact V-shape, not U (shallower) or Y (more spread out). Isn't it? Shotgun CONE sometimes spreads like Y, but in 9/10 of all cases it makes V-shape spread. SPRAY is only arc i didn't tested, so i'll do now.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

That's not exactly how I'd do the test, you can't guarantee that you are clicking on the exact same space each time and after each burst you are changing the test parameters since there are less and less targets each time.

I dug out my old pc with FOT installed and set up a test, I placed out one target per tile and set up a test weapon with the same range, bullets used etc but changed the fire arc for each mode. I loaded the map and entered TB combat mode and saved the game. Then I made one attack took note of which targets were hit and then reloaded to my save point and attacked the same target entity again and repeated the process.

With cone one shot would repeatedly kill most of the targets in a wide V spread similar to your screenshot. But each firing of burst would give a cluster of dead targets along a shallow path with very few wider targets being hit.

Burst looks like this, with the results tightly grouped. (P is the position of the PC, the red 0 is the target I aimed at each time, the rows in cyan were empty tiles with no targets).

00000000000
00000000000
00000000000
00000000000
00000000000
00001000000
00000320000
00008770000
00000800000
00000000000
00000P00000

This is the spread for Spray, it's a lot wider covering the full arc.
00000000000
00000000000
00000000000
00000000000
00000000000
00054675000
00005560000
00008750000
00000700000
00000000000
00000P00000

 

[jarekfall]

This topic is very interesting. May I make some suggestions? You should have as many constant factors as possible. For example, yuor PC should have weapon skill set to maximum value, 300%. PC shouldn't have any perks nor traits. Dummies' AC should be set to 0. That way you will reduce the randomness to minimum value.
You are testing at long ranges, but you use only 10 bullets per shot, try using 50 per shot, you should see how the bullets are placed (less randomness). Use only bullet ammo, other ammo types have hardcoded special meaning. If you want to see spread arc shape, your dummies should have their hit points set to 1. As requiem_for_a_starfury said, you should also point at the same target each time you shoot , you can make the target indestructible.

Seems to be closer to reality And what is so special about 2mm EC, that it cannot be open in FT tools? BoS EE shows nothing special...

These files are corrupted. You can download a patch from my website. I fixed these corrupted entities (not created them), so they are original, also komodoPelt.ent is original.

 

[TwoEyedYum]

Oops, double post.
Hit quote instead of edit

 

[TwoEyedYum]

Requiem, at that point we did nothing contraversing

I talk about the whole hit area - "these targets in V-shape are in danger, man, let get them out before they cut half "

And you talk about possibilities of first shot. You can see yourself, that most hits made against CLOSER targets. Continue and it will look like:

0000000
0ddddd0
0ddddd0
00ddd00
00ddd00
000d000
_______
___P___

(CONE makes same picture for FIRST shot - AC already set to 0). There you are, cone bullets multiplied

Same did my guy (i didn't want to publish a whole bunch of graphic files for every step, too small traffic limit)! Another - about my precision. I made another version with "snow tile" which have 2 stones, one of them small enough to target. And in RL i have rather high PE BTW, i didn't moved mouse after each shot, so... Nevermind.

Now we know, how bullets make their way in BURST and SPRAY. BURST bullets can't ignore obstacles. Spray hits more randomly, but it looks like... Hm... Some acidic spray painter? I can't imagine weapon, that shoots like that.

This topic is very interesting...

Thx, but that what i've feared. This test became more interesting than mod... Well, it's ok, cause mod need to be done first...

Good suggestion about 300%, i've set all this about dummies, but did nothing to shooting guy (taken 76%BG BoS actor from default list).
---NEW---
SUDDENLY! Realized that Avenger and Vindicator are so cumbersome... And not every man can endure those metal things, flying away after every shoot, if i remember it's mechanics right! Adding EN6 requirement for each of these miniguns, while increasing damage, and decreasing range of Vindi to 40. Now there will be a reason to use Avenger after Junction City...

 

[Ardanis]

And what is so special about 2mm EC, that it cannot be open in FT tools? BoS EE shows nothing special...

File header reads ~A.m.m.o.~ instead of ~Ammo~. Removing nulls in hex editor fixes the problem. Same for Flamer's Fuel.

1c) Sniper rifle - +1 AP cost. Reasons are obvious. For me. Feel free to argue.

Same here, but I let it use two modes - in normal it's just a rifle like any other, and in scoped in provides farther reach, crit chance and AP cost.

 

[TwoEyedYum]

File header reads ~A.m.m.o.~ instead of ~Ammo~. Removing nulls in hex editor fixes the problem. Same for Flamer's Fuel.

I've already downloaded patch from Jaroslaw's site. You see, Doctors bag and some other items were corupted too. On other hand, i don't like HEX-editing (so never cheated in Fallout 2 with PC save edititng ).

Same here, but I let it use two modes - in normal it's just a rifle like any other, and in scoped in provides farther reach, crit chance and AP cost.

Interesting, through i've already made this for unique weapon based on Barret M82.
By the way, misterious *DKS-501* desigh assumes that you can't even properly fire without looking into scope
If you add some crit chance to sniper rifle, it will be overpowered weapon. Aiming at eyes will result in constant deaths, even against robots. I prefer to add this second unaimed mode with 4 AP cost but LOWERING it's accuracy by 10-20%, or damage by 30-50%

ADD
I've messed up with sprite creating. While i take very nice and simple pictures of, let's say, M82 Anti-Material, after all preparations in 130x52 it look like shit... Yes, there is resizing which would matter and other things, but is it so unreal to make clear small sprite for weapon in FoT? Maybe some additional adjustments in PS to not lose quality while reaizing?

If someone can help me and create some adorable Barret M82 sprite for me, i will be very-very-very glad But better are instructions on HOW to do adorable sprite in such case

 

[jarekfall]

Send me the image, I will check what can be done.

Making images smaller from original image must always produce worse image because of image data loss.

 

[TwoEyedYum]

EDITED

Wrote that post without looking into Tools. Character animation is set by option within every armor (e.g. Metal or Enviromental), so no need to bother myself with it. Now i just change Brahmin to Env... and Brahimn Armor becomes another "normal" armor. Icons are remade, so it will look like Enviromental Armor with perception enchancers (PE+2, LK+1, maybe).

Complete remake of Enviromental OR Power armor into somewhat "stealth" armor still may be appreciated, but i realize how much work it needs.
Also, FT Improver would be needed for inserting new character-in-armor animations, am i right?

 

[jarekfall]

You can create any new armour with any new item sprite, it's not hardcoded.

Would you like to change PC's appearance and armour sounds? Then you will have to use FT Improver.

 

[TwoEyedYum]

Thanks again, Jaroslaw, these sprites are nice. Can't wait to finish new XM110 weapon idea and design.

Managed (how? i don't know ) to make some simple M82 sprite. XM82 heavy rifle ready to use, lying in Sent-Louis chest.

Overall changes to "design document":
1a, 1c and 1d updated - weapon adjustments made them more divercing.
(ACP .45 caliber will be JHP or FMJ (not AP) variant, so Colt pistol and Tommy-Gun will live longer)
2a: updated, new Recon armor finished and ready to use. Now i will decide, where to place it... It should be quite unique.

Work started on filling new village with tiles. Sioux Falls will be small, but well guarded village, where ghouls allied with tribals calling themselves Sioux Tribe. They can't remember why it's named so, but welcome no intruders. And they don't like idea of BoS' patronage...

While tired of tile-placing, i will redo some existent maps. Enemies with most crappiest weapons will be improved. Brahmin Wood already became quite dangerous - there more than one man with Spear Gun, added more bandits with Hunting Rifles. Woman near bridge will not more cause you laugh at her Zip Gun... As it replaced by something more reliable...

 

[TwoEyedYum]

Sioux Falls on its way to filling with tiles...

Some thoughts...

1) I've decided, that all scoped weapon can be fired without looking into scope. Sure. But try to fire Barret M82, holding it like shotgun - will you hit anything? Unique XM82 and normal sniper rifle now both have secondary mode. In this mode you fire faster (4 AP instead of 6), but get -10% to accuracy and range is shortened. You can't aim in this mode.

2) Gauss projectile looks weird... I want to justify all three gauss weapons so they show same FX. As i know, burst mode disables projectile. Does it disable also Light FX (shown at player) and Hit FX (shown at target)?

3) Gauss projectile might be used in another weapon, maybe Rail Gun (single shot Big Weapon) or ASMD (Shock rifle from Unreal). I remove it from M72 and PPK gauss weapons.

4) Question: How laser or plasma missile speed is specified? Is it hardcoded?

5) Question: 3D max with some plugin - is this the only way to create new missile sprite?