Western Feminism
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Feminism is bullshit. Feminism is the entire situation with switched sides.
Equality on the other hand is good.
If you want to be allowed into the army as a soldier, allow making the draft gender independant or let them drop it altogether.
You can't just ask for rights without giving anything in return.
I'm all for gender equality and anti-discrimination, but Feminism is something completely different and only leads to reverse discrimination once it's reached the point of near-equality.
There's still an awful lot of details to fill in, but counter discrimination isn't going to lead us anywhere desirable.
Not every woman that loses a job or promotion to a man does so simply because she's a woman. Women, too, can fail to meet requirements.
Just like negroids and Jews, too, can be assholes and not every crime against a person representing a minority is a hate crime.
Equality on the other hand is good.
If you want to be allowed into the army as a soldier, allow making the draft gender independant or let them drop it altogether.
You can't just ask for rights without giving anything in return.
I'm all for gender equality and anti-discrimination, but Feminism is something completely different and only leads to reverse discrimination once it's reached the point of near-equality.
There's still an awful lot of details to fill in, but counter discrimination isn't going to lead us anywhere desirable.
Not every woman that loses a job or promotion to a man does so simply because she's a woman. Women, too, can fail to meet requirements.
Just like negroids and Jews, too, can be assholes and not every crime against a person representing a minority is a hate crime.
Feminists should get back behind the stove where they belong.
The joke's wearing off by now.
The joke's wearing off by now.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
In the US race and gender equaliity is essently a reality nowadays. The only needed law for such things is a generic antidiscrimination law, and nothing else, as anything further would be regulating morality and personal beliefes.
What ironic is, here in the US we have federal laws basicly saying that if when commiting a crime, you do so because the victim is of a certain ethnic group, its a hate crime and therefore a federal offense (in US there are local laws which apply localy, and federal laws which are national).
The irony is the first person convicted under the law was a black guy............ so the minority hates too.......
Ashmo said:
What ironic is, here in the US we have federal laws basicly saying that if when commiting a crime, you do so because the victim is of a certain ethnic group, its a hate crime and therefore a federal offense (in US there are local laws which apply localy, and federal laws which are national).
The irony is the first person convicted under the law was a black guy............ so the minority hates too.......
Western Feminism is bullshit, always was. Equal sharing of hardship breeds equality. Russia has had a pretty good grasp of this for a long time (Although there have still been problems). There will always be discrimination, but thats because there will always be morons.
Although I have to admit, especially in the United States, I was initially rather shocked at how... well I don't know how to describe it. "Underpowered" isn't really the right word. I guess how, trapped by petty things, women were. Of course there was alot of that at home too but I notice it more here. People, in general, are softer here. I can see why alot of women here just arn't made for fighting. In my mind, thats a mixed blessing. I am glad a place exists where that sort of suffering is not required or normal, but at the same time I'm disappointed that it makes people weaker and more petty. It applies to men too.
Although I have to admit, especially in the United States, I was initially rather shocked at how... well I don't know how to describe it. "Underpowered" isn't really the right word. I guess how, trapped by petty things, women were. Of course there was alot of that at home too but I notice it more here. People, in general, are softer here. I can see why alot of women here just arn't made for fighting. In my mind, thats a mixed blessing. I am glad a place exists where that sort of suffering is not required or normal, but at the same time I'm disappointed that it makes people weaker and more petty. It applies to men too.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Ive really got to agree Lauren, this country needs a good kick in the nuts to wake it up to reality, so itll stop stupid bullshit from bogus lawsuits to the use of racial politics.
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
I`m sorry to dispute the common sense thoughts already put forward, but what Feminism are you talking about?
Liberal Feminism?
Post-Modern Feminism?
Marxian Feminism?
Radical Feminism?
Feminist Stand Point?
Eco-Feminism?
Pacifist Feminist?
Conservative takes on Feminism?
The one that wants equal rights and equal representation, the one that just wants a voice in public matters, or the Gendered centered critical one, that tries to understand the power relations between genders? The one that wants to discuss a biological Sex related discussion, with different forms of essentialist interpretations, or the Gendered centered critical views, wich want to discuss not Man and Women as biological beings but gendered relations as social constructions with systemic results? The Feminism that wants to focus on the Domestic, on family, violence and sexuality, or the one that says there is no separation between the Domestic and The Public, the personal being therefore political and the necessity for the political to be affected by the personal?
Well understanding these concepts can help for a much wider and less dogmatic discussion, but i understand if you were just thinking about the general simplifications that are carried by the not so savvy media. I`m not going to stand on that path of course, but if you`re interested in these matters i advise you to stay way from the media sources and try all the academic discussions about these issues, the level of complexity and the sheer amount of different discussions and schools of thought is indeed haunting though.
Good discussion and if at least one of you goes out and find something more than the usual media blabber about Feminism(s) i`ll be happy, if not it`s your lost, not mine, so it`s ok too
Liberal Feminism?
Post-Modern Feminism?
Marxian Feminism?
Radical Feminism?
Feminist Stand Point?
Eco-Feminism?
Pacifist Feminist?
Conservative takes on Feminism?
The one that wants equal rights and equal representation, the one that just wants a voice in public matters, or the Gendered centered critical one, that tries to understand the power relations between genders? The one that wants to discuss a biological Sex related discussion, with different forms of essentialist interpretations, or the Gendered centered critical views, wich want to discuss not Man and Women as biological beings but gendered relations as social constructions with systemic results? The Feminism that wants to focus on the Domestic, on family, violence and sexuality, or the one that says there is no separation between the Domestic and The Public, the personal being therefore political and the necessity for the political to be affected by the personal?
Well understanding these concepts can help for a much wider and less dogmatic discussion, but i understand if you were just thinking about the general simplifications that are carried by the not so savvy media. I`m not going to stand on that path of course, but if you`re interested in these matters i advise you to stay way from the media sources and try all the academic discussions about these issues, the level of complexity and the sheer amount of different discussions and schools of thought is indeed haunting though.
Good discussion and if at least one of you goes out and find something more than the usual media blabber about Feminism(s) i`ll be happy, if not it`s your lost, not mine, so it`s ok too
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I only know one thing about feminisms: Tehy have teh tittays.
Briosafreak, I don't know what in the world you are talking about. Suffice to say I think the purpose of this thread was to lump it alll together in a simplified form. Although the fact that feminism can be digested into so many kinds leads me to believe that part of the problem is lack of clear definitions that allow people to discuss apples to apples, and not mix their definitions with other kinds of feminism, muddying the discussion.
As no PS, women have breasts, but not alll feminists are female. Unless you are using this as an opportunity to come out of the closet.
And as far as I'm concerned women in the US will always be shackled with an inferiority complex as long as they idolize Paris Hilton and Britney Spears.
As no PS, women have breasts, but not alll feminists are female. Unless you are using this as an opportunity to come out of the closet.
And as far as I'm concerned women in the US will always be shackled with an inferiority complex as long as they idolize Paris Hilton and Britney Spears.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Anybody that idolizes Paris Hilton and Britney Spears is a dumb bitch that isn't worthy of polishing my knob in the first place.
Its not simply a matter of these idolizations existing, its that they exist because people are stupid as Hell. Just look at Britpop for a non-American example.
Its not simply a matter of these idolizations existing, its that they exist because people are stupid as Hell. Just look at Britpop for a non-American example.
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
Murdoch said:
There are clear definitions, the concepts have much work put into them, the problem is that there are so many of them...so my idea was to say to everyone to discuss this over simplified view of feminism as it is portrayed generally, but i wanted to leave the suggestion that going further and finding more on the subject, one of the richest in the academic world, could be rewarding. And it would show how limited the discussions on Feminism on the media generally are.
Yeah i`m male and my breasts are bigger than the ones from Paris Hilton
And the fact someone already said something that isn`t very recognisable in todays`s media, the fact that not all feminists are women, and many women are indeed against feminist views is quite right, good point to bring to this discussion.
Briosa is right I suppose. I have a cunning ability to lump a great deal of Feminist groups into "Western" feminism. Of course, Feminism for basic equality of rights a good thing. The "Marxian" Feminism you had on your list (Good form on that, by the way), I am not a fan of. Saying that so long as there is marriage women will be enslaved seems a rather rediculous stance to take. Reminds me of other kinds of radical feminism, which I am also not particularly fond of. Of course, it brings up the issue of social institutions and how often times people do not see they are trapped in them.
I do not consider myself a slave to the institution of marriage. If there was no such thing as marriage I would still prefer to be with my single partner and no one else. I think in some cases (And my Aunt and Uncle are a good example of people guilty of this) people, without thinking, slide into old habits of social order. My Aunt, for example, is a very fearsome woman, she is very headstrong and determined (like all of her sisters and her mother and many women of the area). Marriage has mellowed her some, and motherhood has mellowed her even more. However she has not "Lost her teeth" or become some unwilling servant. She truly does enjoy many of the "traditional" things mothers and wives do. Her husband will sometimes say something like "Woman, do this" which, quite typically, will result in him getting an earful then, and even more suffering later. He does this very rarely now, and usually its more as a joke then anything else.
Still, I imagine if for whatever reason, she outlives her husband, she will continue to do the things she has always done. She enjoys them. I myself also enjoy (to a degree) the trappings of being a wife, although I am a bit more independant minded then most of my Aunts, which stems mostly from my own self reliance.
Its a cultural difference to be sure though and varies a great deal from region to region. In many places women are not considered equal in many ways and some live as second class citizens.
Russia has carried social equality for a long time (at least with regards to the sexes) for some pretty basic reasons (Everyone needs to work, everyone needs to fight). In fact the October Bolshevik revolution was triggered by women Factory workers rioting. Although in the days after World War Two, there was some undoing of what had been accomplished in the area of equality. However, men tended to naturally look at women as equals , so things pretty quickly balanced back. (Not all, obviously, and that will always be a problem). I am very used to being considered an equal. I can only imagine how zealous women would become when they had to fight for it in the first place.
I do not consider myself a slave to the institution of marriage. If there was no such thing as marriage I would still prefer to be with my single partner and no one else. I think in some cases (And my Aunt and Uncle are a good example of people guilty of this) people, without thinking, slide into old habits of social order. My Aunt, for example, is a very fearsome woman, she is very headstrong and determined (like all of her sisters and her mother and many women of the area). Marriage has mellowed her some, and motherhood has mellowed her even more. However she has not "Lost her teeth" or become some unwilling servant. She truly does enjoy many of the "traditional" things mothers and wives do. Her husband will sometimes say something like "Woman, do this" which, quite typically, will result in him getting an earful then, and even more suffering later. He does this very rarely now, and usually its more as a joke then anything else.
Still, I imagine if for whatever reason, she outlives her husband, she will continue to do the things she has always done. She enjoys them. I myself also enjoy (to a degree) the trappings of being a wife, although I am a bit more independant minded then most of my Aunts, which stems mostly from my own self reliance.
Its a cultural difference to be sure though and varies a great deal from region to region. In many places women are not considered equal in many ways and some live as second class citizens.
Russia has carried social equality for a long time (at least with regards to the sexes) for some pretty basic reasons (Everyone needs to work, everyone needs to fight). In fact the October Bolshevik revolution was triggered by women Factory workers rioting. Although in the days after World War Two, there was some undoing of what had been accomplished in the area of equality. However, men tended to naturally look at women as equals , so things pretty quickly balanced back. (Not all, obviously, and that will always be a problem). I am very used to being considered an equal. I can only imagine how zealous women would become when they had to fight for it in the first place.
Oh, I'm not following the media. I know that they only show the extemists. I mean the www.ifeminist.com definition.
Women have full equality of law. The only reason it hasn't really been followed is because a lot of the senior company people are older males, who grew up with "values" like women being weaker.
Basically, once all these people die then there will be
a) only plain discrimination (as there always is), and not related to the old society values
b) a shitload of reverse-discrimination laws which help no one
Women have full equality of law. The only reason it hasn't really been followed is because a lot of the senior company people are older males, who grew up with "values" like women being weaker.
Basically, once all these people die then there will be
a) only plain discrimination (as there always is), and not related to the old society values
b) a shitload of reverse-discrimination laws which help no one
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
What needs to be done is have basic anti discrimination laws, ones that cover ANY type of discrimination, and nothing else. Anything else would foster reverse discrimination.
LOL! New sig.
Briosafreak said:Yeah i`m male and my breasts are bigger than the ones from Paris Hilton
LOL! New sig.
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
I have to agree with Lauren a lot on this one.
While Women have all they've wanted legally all thats feminism is only practiced as a way to stop the past from coming back. Feminism already achieved what it wanted...full equality. Not that there isnt a bias, but like others have said its a cultural problem. Its quite sad really. Why wouldnt men want women to be as "tough" as them? Probably since it derails their power. I would think though that seeing someone as an equal means there wont be a power struggle such like those that destroy marriages.
Hm,
The Vault Dweller
While Women have all they've wanted legally all thats feminism is only practiced as a way to stop the past from coming back. Feminism already achieved what it wanted...full equality. Not that there isnt a bias, but like others have said its a cultural problem. Its quite sad really. Why wouldnt men want women to be as "tough" as them? Probably since it derails their power. I would think though that seeing someone as an equal means there wont be a power struggle such like those that destroy marriages.
Hm,
The Vault Dweller