What happened to Shady Sands?

[Eternauta]

I am posting this in New Vegas Discussion because in NV we are able to see a most completed (so far) version of what the NCR was turning into in Fallout 2.

Why did they change so much, going from the Indian like culture of Shady Sands to an American Cowboy one?

I personally believe it's because of their contact with settlements which kept a more "western" (in terms of eastern-western civilizations) culture from before the War. Of course I mean contact during the NCR expansion which most probably meant the development of economic exchange and movility of people.

What is your opinion?

 

[pall]

Hmm....
Actualy we don't see complete version of NCR, we see only frontal part of them.
Not to mention that F:NV got cowboy fell and wild west like setting all over it.

 

[Iabimyshkin]

Well to be fair Shady Sands was just a village, a very small community. The NCR is a nation, a combination of towns which became states, hence the NCR is not just based on the small community from Fallout 1. Plus I think you've made too much of the 'indian' culture thing, Aradesh yes, but I didn't get that from the other residents. I think it's perfectly natural for them to have western culture, being from the west and all that................. .................................. ..... ...

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....................... ? ?

 

[Black Feather]

IIRC Shady Sands wasn't indian but generally multi-cultural (due to the nature of its vault) and buddhism was the dominant religion?

Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Eternauta]

Have you guys not noticed how much they changed? Just look at their monuments:

From the obelisk in the centre of the village with stories carved on it, in non-latin characters, to the "realistic" statue of the Vault Dweller, to the enormous sculture of the Ranger and the NCR soldier.

Hmm....
Actualy we don't see complete version of NCR, we see only frontal part of them.
Not to mention that F:NV got cowboy fell and wild west like setting all over it.

That is so, you're right, still I think the "cowboy" style is in NCR even in Fallout 2. I am thinking about the character Roger Westing and also the "Rawhide" Saloon.

Well to be fair Shady Sands was just a village, a very small community. The NCR is a nation

Are you saying that small communities are necessarily supposed to show a nonwestern culture while nations (or countries is what you meant anyway) are necessarily supposed to show a western culture? In case you didn't know, India is a country, so are China, Irak, etc... So sorry but I don't see any point in your reasoning.

Also remember that the Hub, Junktown, Adytum, they all were small settlements, which had "western" characteristics. Once again, I can't see what you are based on.

I think it's perfectly natural for them to have western culture, being from the west and all that................. .................................. ..... ...

................ ............. ...

....................... ? ?

Unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful? Or do you just take a lot of things for granted? Nothing about culture is "natural", especially because it's cultural

IIRC Shady Sands wasn't indian but generally multi-cultural (due to the nature of its vault) and buddhism was the dominant religion?

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Could be. Where did you get that from?

 

[Black Feather]

IIRC Shady Sands wasn't indian but generally multi-cultural (due to the nature of its vault) and buddhism was the dominant religion?

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Could be. Where did you get that from?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_15

"It was to stay closed for fifty years, was overcrowded, and contained occupants of extremely diverse ideologies and cultures. The situation caused by the experiment led to a great schism, during which four groups ultimately left the vault to brave the wastes during the spring of 2141. Three of these groups became roving gangs of raiders: the Jackals, the Vipers, and the Khans in the winter of the same year. The fourth group settled down a few miles west of the vault and founded the village of Shady Sands in the spring of 2142."

 

[Wintermind]

I think you're making something out of nothing; The 'cowboy' aspect of the NCR seems to apply more towards the rangers, who were always 'cowboys' in a sense, and only really applies to the NCR thematically, as the NCR's eastward expansion is similar to America's spread westward.

Secondly, most of NCR's 'indian' or 'tribal' culture was certainly from when they were heavily living off the land and had a much simpler lifestyle; now Shady Sands is the capital of the NCR and likely the closest thing in the wastes to a proper city. Of course it's going to change.

What Iabimyshkin was getting is that Shady Sands was a small town. the NCR is not a town, but a huge (especially by wasteland standards) nation, whose culture will become a mish-mash of the territories and cities under it's domain.

Additionally, the only bits of the NCR we know about are the ones in the Mojave, and the Mojave outpost is the very far eastern end of NCR territory.

 

[Iabimyshkin]

Well to be fair Shady Sands was just a village, a very small community. The NCR is a nation

'Are you saying that small communities are necessarily supposed to show a nonwestern culture while nations (or countries is what you meant anyway) are necessarily supposed to show a western culture? In case you didn't know, India is a country, so are China, Irak, etc... So sorry but I don't see any point in your reasoning.'

- This is drivel, absolute drivel. Simply a retarded attempt at understanding what I said. Also it's 'Iraq' you imbecile.

'Also remember that the Hub, Junktown, Adytum, they all were small settlements, which had "western" characteristics. Once again, I can't see what you are based on.'

-This is partly you misunderstanding me and partly you inadvertently making my point. Why are we reading so much into an obelisk in one town of the NCR anyway?

I think it's perfectly natural for them to have western culture, being from the west and all that................. .................................. ..... ...

................ ............. ...

....................... ? ?

'Unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful? Or do you just take a lot of things for granted? Nothing about culture is "natural", especially because it's cultural '

Jeus, pretty much didn't understand a thing I said really eh?

No, I meant nation- when a community come together and become one territory and share a government it is a nation. As the ending credits of Fallout 1 say 'the basis of a new nation'. So nice attempt at being patronising but you just look stupid. When the NCR expands over a larger geographical territory and assimilates other cultures into it, separating into states, it is a country.

The NCR did not just begin as Shady Sands either, Shady Sands is one town that becomes a state of the NCR. As does the Hub, Redding etc. So obviously it is going to be multi-cultural, why would the culture of the entire NCR be based on a few elements of the settlers of Shady Sands?

Also, I was saying that it is natural for the NCR to display many of the cultural traits of the American west, because it is the American west. I'm not a troll, not entirely sure what that entails but if it's when you post nonsense trying to provoke people then no, because i'm an adult and I have better things to do and say. I really just don't get the puzzlement at why NCR displays western cultural traits, I only really saw it in Aradesh and a few other things. Shady Sands... what about Junktown? A sheriff run western town, the Hub? These are all part of the NCR too. Reading too much into small elements of Shady Sands, perhaps these other cultural traits simply faded away? Cultures do change over time....

I simply pointed out that it isn't that surprising that the culture of the American west is so evident in the NCR, albeit a little sarcastically but it was playful really, you talk to me like an idiot (and talk idiotically) and call me a troll? Yawn.

 

[Iabimyshkin]

I think you're making something out of nothing; The 'cowboy' aspect of the NCR seems to apply more towards the rangers, who were always 'cowboys' in a sense, and only really applies to the NCR thematically, as the NCR's eastward expansion is similar to America's spread westward.

Secondly, most of NCR's 'indian' or 'tribal' culture was certainly from when they were heavily living off the land and had a much simpler lifestyle; now Shady Sands is the capital of the NCR and likely the closest thing in the wastes to a proper city. Of course it's going to change.

What Iabimyshkin was getting is that Shady Sands was a small town. the NCR is not a town, but a huge (especially by wasteland standards) nation, whose culture will become a mish-mash of the territories and cities under it's domain.

Additionally, the only bits of the NCR we know about are the ones in the Mojave, and the Mojave outpost is the very far eastern end of NCR territory.

- Yes, all of this I agree with. I should have read this before my hasty post, all correct points. Thank you. Indeed, the NCRs expansion majorly reflects the nineteenth century expansion of the United States across the untamed, hostile west; hence why I love the story of New Vegas. It appeals to central theme of Fallout, history repeats itself. War never changes etc.

 

[Eternauta]

contained occupants of extremely diverse ideologies and cultures.

Ah, you mean that. Vault 15 indeed was multi-cultural, but that doesn't mean the Shady Sands community was as well. I admit it would be the most probable situation, however, it is possible that minor groups got absorbed by the "Indian" culture of the majority.

Iabimyshkin, I am sorry I spelled Iraq wrong, but English is not my native language so I don't understand why you call me imbecile. You clearly show a very negative attitude for no reason and I see no point in wasting time reading the rest of your reply.

I think you're making something out of nothing; The 'cowboy' aspect of the NCR seems to apply more towards the rangers

I think we can actually agree here. However the cowboy aspect was there in Fallout 2 (because of what I already said) although you are right in that it was not so important.

Still, the NCR culture in Fallout 2/New Vegas is a lot more western than that of the Shady Sands from Fallout 1.

Secondly, most of NCR's 'indian' or 'tribal' culture was certainly from when they were heavily living off the land and had a much simpler lifestyle; now Shady Sands is the capital of the NCR and likely the closest thing in the wastes to a proper city. Of course it's going to change.

First of all, Indian and tribal are not the same. Also, I might be wrong but it seems you are saying that eastern culture is for smaller communities (with a simpler lifestyle) while western culture is for bigger communities (with a "proper" city), which is not so. Chages were obvious, but not necessarily towards a western culture, unless it

will become a mish-mash of the territories and cities under it's domain.

Which is the explanation I suggested in my original post.

 

[Wintermind]

maybe we're all misundertanding each other here. I'm not saying that size of a community dictates what sort of culture it's going to have. I'm saying that as it grows, it's going to change. What exactly do you mean by western? Do you mean a more modern culture or a more "Old West" culture, ie, a sort of cowboy john wayne clint eastwood sort of thing?

The simpler, tribal or 'native american indian' (which is what I meant and mean by indian because that's how I was raised), is present in shady sands because it's a smaller, simpler community. It's primary concerns are survival, and it's culture reflects that; a small self sufficient town that doesn't really do anything other than try to survive. It hardly interacts with other groups in the wasteland, only making small amounts of trade with caravans, probably exchanging food for medical supplies and ammunition.

Shady Sands, a few generations later, is pretty much a city. It has a large, uniformed police force. specialized gates that block off sections of town from undesirables or risky elements. It regularly has large cattle drives, it has a complicated form of government, it's own army, it's own spec ops division of that army (the Rangers), etc. More over it also reflects the level of the development of the community both in infrastructure and it's general state, resembling the United States in it's time westward expansion, an appearance that is also present in FO:NV.

Also, I don't really think that Shady Sands appearance matters that much in FO1 until FO2, where we get to see how much it's grown as a community (into a nation) and how it's changed.

By the way, a more apt title might be "What happened to Shady Sands?" And the answer would be "It was absorbed into the NCR, like countless other wasteland towns."

 

[Eternauta]

What exactly do you mean by western? Do you mean a more modern culture or a more "Old West" culture, ie, a sort of cowboy john wayne clint eastwood sort of thing?

I do not mean "western" in a "old west" sense, but West opposed to East (the old division which originated between "European" and "Asian" cultures).

The simpler, tribal or 'native american indian' (which is what I meant and mean by indian because that's how I was raised), is present in shady sands because it's a smaller, simpler community.

But that is not what I mean with "Indian". When I used the word "Indian" I meant the Indians from India, not the native Americans who are by an old mistake called indians.

That is why I personally don't think their "complexity" is the final reason for their culture to turn so wester, or if you like, American-like. Ancient eastern cultures such as China have become "well developed" societies but they have not developed a completely western culture because of that.

In the particular case of the NCR, I believe, the important detail is the western culture of the territories that Shady Sands has joined with to form the NCR (which has been said before and in the very first post).

As the society grows, changes will obviously happen, but the deep cultural changes from F1 to F2 did surprise me. Their monuments ARE important, it shows how their society understands representation, and they have gone from the carved monolith (which by the way didn't even have Latin characters) to the "realistic" humanoid statue.

By the way, a more apt title might be "What happened to Shady Sands?" And the answer would be "It was absorbed into the NCR, like countless other wasteland towns."

You're absolutely right, I will follow your suggestion

 

[pall]

should it be more like... " It transformed into NCR"?

 

[Iabimyshkin]

It is important to note that Shady Sands was founded and initially populated by the residents of Vault 15. This vault was purposefully multi-cultural as part of the experiment therefore it is clear that the people of Shady sands have diverse cultural backgrounds. I see Indian culture in the character of Aradesh and the aforementioned obelisk, also in Agatha, but this is not a majority of the population of Shady Sands.

As Aradesh founded the town you would have to presume he was responsible for the obelisk as he was the biggest influence on the town. You could also deduce from this that he perhaps influenced some residents to follow his religion and cultural ideals. However, this culture is not evident in all of the residents by any means which would make sense considering the different cultural backgrounds. Other NPCs and Ian display no aspects of Indian culture.

Essentially it is notable that Tandi displays no Indian cultural traits and never mentions 'Dharma'. It is Tandi who is the most important figure in the development of the NCR, not Aradesh. Furthermore in Fallout 2 Tandi makes it clear that she doesn't want to encourage any religions which may create problems and conflict. Tandi displays that very American desire for adventure and curiosity for the frontier which reflects in the NCR. She does not seem to have have inherited her father's cultural background and has not encouraged it in the NCR.

Again, as previously discussed, The Hub, Vault City, The Boneyard, Redding, Modoc, New Reno, Arroyo, Klamath, Maxson, Junktown are all cities of the NCR and bring a diverse range of people and culture. Although these are not all officially part of the NCR by the beginning of Fallout 2 they are still clearly important cultural influences and obviously some people from these cities are likely to have lived in the NCR. The obelisk could be considered important in Shady Sands in Fallout 1, but in the grand scheme of things? On a larger scale, how important is this obelisk to the New California Republic? Not particularly I would suggest.

Also, this is nothing to do with snobbery but it really should be clear to see that western culture was always likely to have won over and become the most prevalent. Post war or not it is still America and people with a western cultural background are clearly in the major majority. Western land, western cities, western history, western people.

Finally, speaking outside of the actual game, the series simply evolved. Fallout 2 wasn't all the same designers and writers I believe and so in some instances the direction has changed. One part of Fallout 1 that the writers latched onto was the NCR. This has become one of the central and most important parts of the story of post-war America in Fallout- the frontier thesis of the California Republic. Which obviously reflects the frontier thesis of the United states, this historic argument of Frederick Jackson Turner. It has become the Republic's 'manifest destiny' to expand eastwards and explore and 'civilise' the untamed lands beyond the frontier line. Hence the slight change in direction in the writing and design of the NCR? This was most definitely the right way to go because it is one of the most interesting parts of the Fallout story. It also ties in with the repetition of history that Fallout is all about. This has obviously been taken even further in Fallout: New Vegas, (which is why it is the true sequel to Fallout 2).

 

[Makenshi]

the frontier thesis of the California Republic. Which obviously reflects the frontier thesis of the United states, this historic argument of Frederick Jackson Turner. It has become the Republic's 'manifest destiny' to expand eastwards and explore and 'civilise' the untamed lands beyond the frontier line

I wish some other comunity in the east (maybe in Texas?) managed to develop and expand, so that it would clash with NCR in the future, but instead of being stomped and hated like the Legion, it would be as admired and strong - despite it's flaws, like NCR as well -, and both would have to accept each other.

Something like "Damn, we from New California Republic won't be able to absorb the Texas Plutocracy; better set an ambassy, become allies and expand north".

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

A stupid question regarding the NCR that's bugging me since I played the italian version of New Vegas: it's the "Republic of the New California" or the "New Republic of California"?

 

[Wintermind]

I'd go with 'Republic of the New California'. Because other wise it would make more sense as "New Californian Republic" as opposed to "new California Republic".

 

[theprophetgamer]

I think We'll see more NCR in the next Fallout title. I call Alcatraz!

 

[Dr. Croccer]

Well, the NCR has expanded and taken over major settlements like Vault City and Hub, so by this point Shady Sands would only a be a fraction of the total NCR population. The NCR is also supposed to be federal, so it would've shifted from the very Eastern identity from Shady Sands to a more common one for the entire country.

 

[Courier]

A stupid question regarding the NCR that's bugging me since I played the italian version of New Vegas: it's the "Republic of the New California" or the "New Republic of California"?

Neither, it's "New California Republic".

Edit: Nevermind, I think I misunderstood the question.