What'll happen if/when...

[ESpark]

Hypothetical situation.

A lot of people here and on other Fallout forums completely hate F:BOS, as if it was really something proper to 'hate'.

However - what if it sells? In a world where each product is "voted" for with sales numbers, what if the hardcore Fallout fans are outvoted?

Its happened quite a lot of times. Hardcore fans of Game X buy it, but 2 or 3 people in the general public buys it. Hardcore fans hate Game Y, but sells fantastically.

So, the question I propose is this - what will you do if you're outvoted? What if BOS makes a lot of Phat Lewt, saves Interplay, and encourages them to make more BOS titles, as opposed to Fallout 3/4/5/6?

Its enough to buy 2 or 3 copies

 

[Elissar]

Do you honestly expect to see that happen?
Even if it does sell (doubtful), i highly doubt it'll generate enough money to save interplay.

Lets face it... the ONLY thing that could save interplay now is an act of god. And my gods would never save such a place.

 

[ESpark]

Do you honestly expect to see that happen?

I see it being possible. Quite a few games have gone on to be popular games with strong sales, despite the braying and neighing of forums.

 

[Lord_Frodo]

Yeah, I suppose it's possible. It'll be another sad day for gaming if it ends up happening, though. BOS just seems like such a raping of everything fallout was about to me... I mean, it's like they've kept the enviroenments and the gore and tossed out the gameplay that MADE the games good. I think the final outcome will be based on the question "do we really NEED another hunter: the reckoning?"

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

i expect all the real fallout fans to boycott it. 1st because its going to be a piece of shit and 2nd because interplay doesn't deserve our money.

 

[Liquid]

Tell me of one game that has sold and hardcore fans boycotting it.
Just one and I will agree.
Lionheart?
No way.
Tactics?
Neither.

 

[Inskeme]

I think it may work in our favour, however improbable that it would happen. Think about it, drags Interplay's sorry arse from the gutter, they realise they have a half finished game that is garunteed to at least turn a profit, fallout 3 back on track

 

[Darque]

If it sells well, Caen will just keep milking his cash cow....

Not sure who originally posted this picture... but it's appropriate somehow...

 

[ESpark]

Tell me of one game that has sold and hardcore fans boycotting it.
Just one and I will agree.

Deus Ex: Invisible War. A great many hardcore DX fans said they'd boycott it, yet it is selling fantastically without their purchasing the product.

One thing I've learned in life is Forum Outrage Doesn't Work.

 

[DarkCorp]

Seems to be more and more gamers don't care what is put in their faces anymore.

From Deus X 2 to Fallout: POS, games like this come out because not enough gamers are hardcore enough to boycott. So instead, the game companies make all their cash off of the casual gamers who doesn't give a damn what they play as long as they can mash some buttons.

 

[Darque]

I'm not familiar with DX2 or it's flaws, are they on the level with what we are seeing in FOPOS?

 

[Liquid]

I'm not familiar with DX2 or it's flaws

me too.

Seems to be more and more gamers don't care what is put in their faces anymore.

From Deus X 2 to Fallout: POS, games like this come out because not enough gamers are hardcore enough to boycott. So instead, the game companies make all their cash off of the casual gamers who doesn't give a damn what they play as long as they can mash some buttons.

That's sad but true. Modern gamers don't care what they play as long as it's got the graphics, the engine, the sound and is exploiting a known idea.

 

[Roshambo]

Deus Ex: Invisible War. A great many hardcore DX fans said they'd boycott it, yet it is selling fantastically without their purchasing the product.

One thing I've learned in life is Forum Outrage Doesn't Work.

Nope. Sure didn't work for Fallout Tactics or a great number of other games that got killed by word of mouth. It also doesn't help that there's a good many other shooters, many done much better, shit for graphics (which will hurt it hard in console review scores because it is in a genre that demands high-end graphics), this game is coming out at a time that screams "sleeper, even if it was good", and a lot more factors included. It might do halfway decently or maybe a bit like BGA, and that's being optomistic to extreme. It doesn't make things better that the game is being cut in half (either indicative of a weak story or nothing much there to begin with in terms of design), nor that the developers have no clue about the setting, or that the online community doesn't like it. A surprising amount of console gamers don't like the title since it's really not much to look at. If it were an action game, as they claim it is to be, where's the innovative features that are supposed to make me go out and buy it over all the other shooters out there? Oh, none mentioned.

Fallout Tactics had a surprising number of pre-orders from the Interplay online store, yet the game's sales dropped down fast after release. So fast, it was suspicious. It seemed that a lot of fans were suspicious of the game and other games developed with the name of Fallout, as well as being wary. A condition, it appears, that was caused by the buggy and disjointed Fallout 2.

So, yes, fans being upset does have a result. It gets the foolish and hopelessly optomistic to wake up. Eventually. And even some of them don't bother to face reality as there's some kids out there who think that Fallout Tactics was a wild success.

Also, does it surprise anyone that most console players have computers of their own and do look into these things? Then talk to their friends? It's amazing how that works to the naive eye, but that is in fact the industry's strongest force, word of mouth.

 

[ESpark]

From Deus X 2 to Fallout: POS, games like this come out because not enough gamers are hardcore enough to boycott. So instead, the game companies make all their cash off of the casual gamers who doesn't give a damn what they play as long as they can mash some buttons.

Indeed - the casual gamer is becomming more important than the 'hardcore' gamer, as gaming becomes more mainstream and 'normal'. They want things that differ from what you want, they're willing to pay money for it, and they outnumber you 10 to 1.

Glory to the Mass, as a character in System Shock 2 says. Yet another game, mind you, thats sold great to the 'hardcores', and sold pathetically to anyone else.

I'm not familiar with DX2 or it's flaws, are they on the level with what we are seeing in FOPOS?

Down to a tee. Very vocal, hardcore minority complaining about 'their' game being ruined, saying they'll boycott the game, praising negative reviews while making up conspiracy theroys on the positive ones (much akin to the news at NMA lately), while a great many number of people are making the product sell fantastically without them.

The DX2 situation, in fact, inspired me to make this thread. See, as soon as the sales figures came in, and the reviews came in, the haters tended to grow silent and quiet. When a review came out that actually said the game was crap, they embraced it greatly, but nobody else cared - for every 1 bad review, there were 9 others who loved it. Got me wondering if that'll happen here too.

which will hurt it hard in console review scores because it is in a genre that demands high-end graphics

*chuckle* Good joke. Need I remind you of which console is currently #1? Hint - it doesn't have 'high end graphics'.

It might do halfway decently or maybe a bit like BGA, and that's being optomistic to the extreme

Its not 'optomistic' to believe an action-based console game will sell far more than an RPG-based computer game.

the online community doesn't like it.

The 'online community' couldn't make Fallout or Fallout 2 a blockbuster hit, what makes you think their inaction can doom BOS? You'll have to convince the Gamespys, the IGNs, the Gamespots of your opinion. A Fallout Hater on NMA can influence 5, maybe 10 people. A gamespy review can convince millions.

that is in fact the industry's strongest force, word of mouth.

Obviously not - assuming you consider Fallout's community to have a strong 'word of mouth', how can you account for no Fallout game being any sort of major hit, sales wise, when it was released? Quite a lot of things are more important than the braying and neighing of online forums.

Of course, a completely opposite thought - If BOS tanks, Fallout will never have another game. Do you guys want Fallout games? You'll have to make the franchise a profitable one.

 

[King of Creation]

Very vocal, hardcore minority complaining about 'their' game being ruined, saying they'll boycott the game

The thing is, though, we're not a minority. There is a VAST amount of people on pc forums, in gaming magazines, console forums, even console websites that say they don't like the look of the game. The general consensus of almost everyone is that this game won't sell. The game isn't really intriguing anyone at all. The only good things I've heard people say about it are "Hey it looks kinda like BG: DA. It can't be that bad." It really has nothing to do with a fanboy rebellion. Its the simple fact that people don't like the idea of this console game.

 

[Roshambo]

which will hurt it hard in console review scores because it is in a genre that demands high-end graphics

*chuckle* Good joke. Need I remind you of which console is currently #1? Hint - it doesn't have 'high end graphics'.

Has your reading disability allow you to grasp the concept of "context", or do I need to spell it out? If the game looks like shit compared to other games of it's genre, even on the same console, then what does that mean? Yes, that was the entire point of me writing what I did, is that compared to others of the same genre, it looks like pure unadulterated shit.

Thank you for building a straw man argument, but as you can see, I have some skill in taking them down. Don't post any more.

It might do halfway decently or maybe a bit like BGA, and that's being optomistic to the extreme

Its not 'optomistic' to believe an action-based console game will sell far more than an RPG-based computer game.

You certainly ARE naive as hell. I know many crappy console shooters that have come out over the years

Are you familiar with Run Like Hell, or are you clueless in that department as well? You know, the game in which Chuck and others of his team did and it was said to be uninspired and I recall it only sold 5 digits on release. Which is a lot less than either Fallout on their own. The ones who know what Fallout is haven't really cared for the game since it doesn't stick to the setting and backstory. There are console gamers who do know what Fallout is, but mainly since they both play PC and console games.

So then I think your statement of sale guarantee for a console shooter are, frankly, so full of shit it's incredible.

Then also take a look at when the game is coming out. Jan 13. Are you familiar enough with the game industry to understand how much of a bad thing that is? Well, I guess I'm wasting my time as you've not clued in on anything else just yet. But there's hope. I think.

Good job for resembling a stupid little Interplay marketing mokey and not being able to see the big picture with all the facts. I would also like to point out that the "casual gamer" is in fact a myth. The definition has become so altered over the years, it's now become indicative of anyone who doesn't follow games closely. Which, since the gaming industry has been turning to shit, especially on Interplay's effort, and since the internet has made gaming news a bit more available, gamers have become much wiser on looking into where to spend their money.

Returns are also not counted in sales, and neither are sales back to places like EB. Run Like Hell, Dungeon Siege, and Lionheart all decorate the local EB. They have almost 30 copies of each (except for Run Like Hell, more like 6) at dirt cheap.

The 'online community' couldn't make Fallout or Fallout 2 a blockbuster hit, what makes you think their inaction can doom BOS? You'll have to convince the Gamespys, the IGNs, the Gamespots of your opinion. A Fallout Hater on NMA can influence 5, maybe 10 people. A gamespy review can convince millions.

You certainly are clueless, aren't you? Especially about the history of Fallout and why it wasn't a wild commercial hit that it could have been. I will give you one more chance, and if you can't post what the reason really is, you may either edit out your own idiocy or leave.

You also fail to understand the concept of word of mouth. It is something that SPREADS, even offline. I'm surprised you tote out GameSpy, as you might be one of the few left who hasn't figured out that they are used for the downloads and some news, but their reviews and editorials are usually uninformed brain dead garbage.

Also, if it didn't occur to you, there's bitching of Fallout 3's cancellation on console forums. Kind of makes you go "Hmmmm..." when you think about it carefully, doesn't it?

Obviously not - assuming you consider Fallout's community to have a strong 'word of mouth', how can you account for no Fallout game being any sort of major hit, sales wise, when it was released? Quite a lot of things are more important than the braying and neighing of online forums.

More of your clueless idiocy, mainly again with the history of Fallout and why it didn't do so well initially.

Also, it's pretty hard to have as a strong word of mouth at Fallout's initial release, but it DID spread. Fallout has sold quite a bit, but only when the word of mouth spread. Now there's a much larger community with connections all around, especially to other news sites (and not the shit ones you used as example). Thank you for proving you know little, if anything at all, of Fallout's history.

Of course, a completely opposite thought - If BOS tanks, Fallout will never have another game. Do you guys want Fallout games? You'll have to make the franchise a profitable one.

Some moron also thought to try that argument for when Fallout Tactics was said to be a bomb and turned out that way. Again I have to say that at best you are ignorant (in reality, stupid for arguing about that which you demonstrably know nothing about), in both how gamers would look at the franchise and there's the possibility that someone else could obtain the license and do another game, though the quality of said game may be suspect in itself but that is an uncertainty at this time. You DO know why Fallout is called Fallout and designed the way it was, right?

Fact is, most people do their research into a game before they buy it, it's becoming a necessity for the industry of late.

 

[APTYP]

Err, if action spin-off for a console succeeds, it will only tell Interplay that people want more console arcades, NOT that people want a complex CRPG that will take two years to develop and cost millions of dollars.

So if FOBOS will sell well, we'll just get FOBOS2 instead of FO3. That's just how business works.

...

Oh, I just forgot that this was your original question in all the rhethoric that followed. My answer is that while I don't own a console and have no plans on owning it in the future, I might rent the sequel in the unlikely event that Interplay won't file for bankrupcy, and if FOBOS2 will show some merit other than being loosely based on Fallout. I'm not married to Fallout, so if FOBOS2 will happen to be a good game, I won't be boycotting it.

 

[ESpark]

My my, such vitriol.

There is a VAST amount of people on pc forums, in gaming magazines, console forums, even console websites that say they don't like the look of the game.

If you'd like to provide proof of that, feel free. Its nice that you say everybody agrees with us!q1!11!1oneone, its another thing to provide actual proof of that.

Looking at NMA's news for this month, I discoveredGamesdomain seems to think semi-favorably about the title, and same thing with gamespot. , UGO, as well, says 'the graphics look great, the gameplay will almost surely rock'.

You'll forgive me if the whole "vast amount of people agree with us" tidbit doesnt seem to resonate with me. People who love System Shock 2 say the same thing. You don't, however, see anyone interested in making System Shock 3.

If the game looks like shit compared to other games of it's genre, even on the same console, then what does that mean?

It means you're seeing BOS as ugly because you want BOS to fail. You're seeing ugly because if its ugly, BOS has no chance of selling. Is BOS art? No. Does BOS look as horrible as you say? I don't believe so. Review sites, too, aren't saying the graphics look 'like shit'.

The ones who know what Fallout is haven't really cared for the game since it doesn't stick to the setting and backstory

Considering the nature of current Fallout cames is not to stick precisely with F1 and F2, it would seem that 'sticking to the setting and backstory' is not as important as you might think. Fallout = Post Nuke World. Thats really all that matters.

Are you familiar enough with the game industry to understand how much of a bad thing that is?

Of what point does Jan 13 have? If it does, in fact, have some point, please tell me. The only thing I could think of is that you mean to imply that "didnt sell on Xmas, so it sucks". Quite a few games miss Xmas, and tend to do well.

Using your words, I could make up something too - You know what color pants I wore when I bought Deus Ex 2? BLUE! you familiar enough with the game industry to understand how much of a bad thing that is? Well, I guess I'm wasting my time as you've not clued in on anything else just yet.

I would also like to point out that the "casual gamer" is in fact a myth.

Well, if that were true, The Sims (and its expansions) would not be at the top of the chats. 2 out of the top 3 games sold in November are Sims products, an expansion and a bundled set. If the casual gamer is a "myth", many of the games the 'hardcore' gamer would want would be at the top. Surely you are aware that most 'hardcore' gamers cannot stand The Sims, and its myriad of Expansions?

The casual gamer exists. If that weren't true, BOS would be cancelled and Fallout 3 would still be in production. If that weren't true, BIS would have been churning out hardcore-based hits left and right. If that weren't true, Looking Glass would still be around, based on the profits of System Shock 2 and maybe even System Shock 3.

But they are not. Those that didnt pander to your supposed 'myth' are now dead.

To deny the casual gamer is to deny the gamers that will pay for things you dislike.

Returns are also not counted in sales,

Ah, 'returns'. I remember this line of thought when Black & White came out. Black & White 2 will not happen! Even if B&W sells wonderfully, the returns will be so great that they won't make any money!. Returns happen, but to assume that a game sells "but everyone will return it" is hoping a bit too much.

Returns aren't factored in because they very very rarely cause a major shift in profits.

Especially about the history of Fallout and why it wasn't a wild commercial hit that it could have been

A lack of pandering to the appropriate audience. Others might like to blame failures on external sources, but I perfer to blame the failure itself.

their reviews and editorials are usually uninformed brain dead garbage.

Reminds me of the DX2 haters. If the review is not akin with your beliefs, its 'brain dead garbage'. If Gamespy came out right now and said what you believe, would you still say they were 'brain dead'?

there's bitching of Fallout 3's cancellation on console forums

Proof? Links? Examples?

Fallout has sold quite a bit, but only when the word of mouth spread.

Please provide some sales figures to convince me of that. Hell, I'll even make it easier, find me sales figures for Fallout 2. Its a newer game, might be easier to find them.

Fact is, most people do their research into a game before they buy it,

Well, sales figures for games prove you wrong. Only 'hardcore' gamers do research on the games that they want to buy.

Err, if action spin-off for a console succeeds, it will only tell Interplay that people want more console arcades, NOT that people want a complex CRPG that will take two years to develop and cost millions of dollars.

So if FOBOS will sell well, we'll just get FOBOS2 instead of FO3. That's just how business works.

Very true. Complex CRPG that will take two years to develop and cost millions of dollars tend to get cancelled about halfway through production, or don't sell well.

 

[Montez]

Ok Espark, a few questions:

(1) Why do you care what the people here think of BOS?

(2) Since almost every post you've made has to do with BOS, why aren't you posting in the forum dedicated to it?

(3) Most people here have acknowledged that BOS might sell well, and the "Buying BOS will lead to Fallout 3" statement has been answered and debated many, many, many times here, so why are you harping on it?

(4) Did you play Fallout 1 and 2, and did you like them?

(5) You stated in your last post "Fallout = post nuke world. That's all that matters". So, in your opinion, the gameplay, dialogue, combat mechanics, and story line aren't important to Fallout? All that matters is that it's set in a post-nuclear world? It doesn't sound like the game impressed you too much, so why did you join a community that is centered on the game?

(6) This thread already exists in the BOS forum, under the name "What if the WORST thing will happend...". - why didn't you just post your comments in that thread?

 

[ESpark]

Why do you care what the people here think of BOS?

I suppose part of my wonderings is based on an idea of "Its the only Fallout product you're bound to get, why complain?"

Although, I'm primarilly interested less on *what* they think, its more of a batter of *why* they think what they think.

Since almost every post you've made has to do with BOS, why aren't you posting in the forum dedicated to it?

A cursory search has yielded that most of my posts have been about the nature of gaming, and why Fallout 3's demise is not something totally horrible or unexpected.

Most people here have acknowledged that BOS might sell well, and the "Buying BOS will lead to Fallout 3" statement has been answered and debated many, many, many times here, so why are you harping on it?

Got me there. I suppose it was due in part with my recent experiences with Game X Haters becomming mute after sales figures completely invalidate their opinion of the aforementioned game.

Did you play Fallout 1 and 2, and did you like them?

Both, and I'd say I enjoyed them. A few... oddities, however, remind me why the game wasn't adopted by a larger group.

So, in your opinion, the gameplay, dialogue, combat mechanics, and story line aren't important to Fallout?

Gameplay - I don't mind if Fallout is put into non-RPG enviroments. I don't know if that goes into Gameplay or not - more a genre thing, technically - but I think Fallout is malleable enough to withstand tinkering to its 'core' gameplay, even expanding into alternate genres.

Dialogue - I never noticed any dialogue that truely screamed 'Fallout' to me.

Combat mechanics - Again, Fallout can survive a few non-typical combat schemas. Fallout with real-time action? I can deal.

Story Line - Innocent Person From Secure Town Ventures Out To Get Something For His Secure Town, Finds Big Enemy In Process, Destroys Big Enemy. I wouldn't flip if it changed.

It doesn't sound like the game impressed you too much,

Very true. Fun game, but not extremely impressive. Neither were the F3 shots, but thats a whole new issue.

This thread already exists in the BOS forum, under the name "What if the WORST thing will happend..."

My apologies. I should've searched.