Ratty said:
Hey, the Prophet can't be wrong about that, either.
Want to know why? Read on!
Ashmo said:
Well, the Islam -- as in, the teachings of the Q'uran -- is rather peaceful.
Peaceful, in the sense of co-existing along other religions?
2.90 – 2.91: Evil is that for which they have sold their souls -- that
they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah
should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He
pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath,
and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.
"And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they
say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what
is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they
have."
Please note that nothing in the Qu'uran really prevents or contradicts the Islamists from visitng Allah's edict that other religions are deserving of wrath upon them. Something they have been liberally doing so for well over a thousand years, including the Hindu, Christians, and pretty much everyone else who has had the misfortune to rub elbows with the unenlightened Islamic practices. Which basically means every other Arab religion, but those were threatened with death if they did not convert.
This, compared to the compassion that Jesus was trying to spread. Or a real peaceful religion, Buddhism or Taoism. Hell, from the above, I would have figured that Falwell and other Christian fundies somehow got the Qu'uran and the Bible mixed up and are reading from the wrong page, as they seem to be following it and not what Jesus taught. It isn't like they found out that Jesus was an incestuous child-fucker, which there is no basis for, which I can't exactly say the same about the Prophet and his child wife A'isha or his cousin Zynab.
Peaceful in the sense that a husband can first tell his wife to do something (regardless of how old she is, how mature she is, or even if she has some form of education), then deny her sexual satisfaction or some other aspect of a loving couple, as he goes to sleep with the other wives instead, and then beat her if she doesn't follow his wishes - as stated verbatim in the Qu'uran. Some people actually try to defend this sick shit by making really bad claims in regards to psychology. Unbelievable.
In this, and other Qu'uran dictations and hadiths, the man is the one who has any decision about sex. Except for where Allah says to not touch a menstruating woman, because it is considered a disease.
There's a lovely essay about the subject, and how the "Qu'uran as peaceful or kind to women (or anyone besides the Islamic male)" is total garbage.
Then you have this amusing little bit of apologist crap that while it claims that the religion isn't designed to be inequal (despite the Qu'uran specifically stating otherwise in many points) - that is how a glaring majority of the religion treats women. Just about every Islamic country ever known to man is empirical evidence of this.
(2) Islam encourages wife beating: On the contrary, Quran uses the best psychological approach to discourage this widespread abuse that is widespread in both Islamic and non-Islamic societies.
Oh, yes. A perfect way to treat a woman that doesn't want to do as you say; first talk to them, then if they don't do as you wish, deny or abuse them through other aspects of the relationship (and exactly how does this nettling solve anything? Or going to sleep with another wife? It doesn't do anything but breed contempt between wives and the husband), and THEN beat her when she is undoubtedly pissed off at you/scared of you and unlikely to change her mind, but is unlikely going to voice a contrary opinion again if it results in her getting beaten. Something made inherently worse when beating is the mildest treatment a woman could receive for many things in Islamic countries.
"The best psychological approach to discourage abuse", my ass. The best psychological approach if you want to develop and keep a woman with abuse co-dependency issues, rather, because it psychologically reinforces behaving the man through increasingly strict abuse. One that you can systematically train in varying degrees to control her from having anything contrary to say to your wishes, because the above does nothing to provide for a contrary desire - only the man's wishes and the obediance of the woman are the subject of this. I suppose it's "kind" and "peaceful" in that it says to talk to her first before you beat her. And when you don't want to be married anymore, IIRC, you only have to say so and kick her out of the house, but originally you had to provide for her for three moon cycles to see if she was pregnant and then the divorce is final. That is still the man's option, and the non-existent women's option has been further represented by common Islamic country law, by the effective legal rape that marriage has become.
In theory, it does make a bit more sense than the typical divorce we see in the US and other countries, but it seriously doesn't have much place in practice, except perhaps Turkey. I found it amusing that a Pakistani site would have these kinds of claims, when a common practice there and a couple of other Islamic countries is to stone a woman to death for getting raped, as she "obviously wasn't anonymous enough for a man to find her sexually appealing", or so the excuse seems to go.
Then there's this hadith, where the Prophet basically equates fucking your wife to absolution:
It is related that: The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) on entering the house of Umm Salama, smelled a strong perfume. He asked: "Is Al-Hawla here?" Umm Salama replied: "Yes, she is here complaining about her husband." Al-Hawla came out and told the Prophet: "My husband neglects me." He said: "Give him more, Hawla." She answered: "I leave no perfume without using it, but he still disregards me." He remarked: "If only he would know what he would get by approaching you!" She asked: "What would he get by approaching me?" The Prophet replied: "If he approached you, two angels would escort him and he would be like a man drawing his sword to fight for the cause of Allah. Then by having sexual intercourse, his sins would fall off him like leaves from a tree and when he takes the bath, his sins would wash off him."
So let's recap. Men can beat women for disagreeing with them, but not the other way around, and in practice that kind of husband would likely just use an "honor killing" to "divorce" his wife instead. Oh, and it doesn't matter what sins you as a husband perform, your wife is expected to be there so you can fuck her to absolve yourself of sin.
The wife has nothing of the sort, is expected to be essentially a paid concubine and breeder as written in the Qu'uran (despite supposedly saying men and women are equal, the man makes the decisions on just about everything but the wife's business or property of her own - THAT IS IT), which can lead to cases where an abused Islamic woman moved to Scotland with her husband, who beat her regularly, and is told by the local police that she is free to leave him whenever she wants, thus shocking the hell out of the abused woman as she wasn't aware of anything else.
Read the part about arranged marriages. Sorry, but the denigration of women started with the Qu'uran, and has only gotten worse. Christianity has it's ill moments, but at least many countries practicing it aren't subscribing to the barbarism of most Islamic countries, and have been working on bettering the life and welfare of all those in the Christian religion, regardless of how they act towards other religions. Turkey seems to be the only Islamic country actively (or one of VERY few) trying to do the same.
Equality of women in Islam is simply nothing more than a thickly-veiled lie, one many women have to wear on a daily basis if they want to live. You know, because the men in Islam can't be trusted to keep their desire in order, and the Prophet even married his own adopted son's wife after that marriage was ruined, because the Prophet "couldn't control his desire". So now millions have to suffer because he was a horny ol' goat that couldn't control himself, and therefore everyone else is just as incapable of holding back from sin. Some Apostle of Allah, huh? At least Abraham and the fellow visited with the boils after his entire family died followed instructions and did what they were told to do, and they weren't the son of Yahweh Elohim, either. At least Jesus showed the merit in self-control, versus the Islamic way of Submissing others because it might drive someone to sin. Hence why some Islamic countries punish the women for being raped, because they obviously didn't make sure that the person who raped them wasn't driven to sin. So why can an Islamic man fast of the stomach, but not fast of their desires? As man and women are held equal in Allah's eyes, as said in the Qu'uran (and contradicted heavily), then why couldn't the man prove his devotion to Allah by continually fasting of his lusts, as the wife is expected to in lieu of her husband's desires and punishments inflicted upon the wife for disobeying? Yes, the man can withold sex, but the woman is supposed to give it up every time the man desires, or he can beat her and THEN rape her, and it's perfectly fine in Islamic law and by the Qu'uran, because the wife is expected to be a sex object to begin with.
Some "enlightenment" and equality, when the sexual relationship basically amounts to rape or brutal rape, according to the word of the Qu'uran, where beating is considered to be love. Wait! There's more!
Not only did the Prophet write it thus, which
has it's own spin, but the wife he essentially took from his own adopted son, and married, was his own cousin. Hey, incest, too! Thus disowning the adopted son, as it clearly indicates that the forbidding of marrying your son's wife meant nothing if it was an adopted son - which the Prophet could have written otherwise, much like how he wrote that Allah told to thim that Zaynab was to be his. But didn't, because it didn't follow his desires. If he was flawed enough to let his desires corrupt him, then it will just as similarly been able to corrupt any divine message that is given to him. Which is exactly what happened.
For example, Zaynab bint-Jahsh was the daughter of the Prophet's aunt. She was married, at the recommendation of the Prophet, to Zayd ibn-Harithah, the freed slave and adopted son of the Prophet. This marriage was contracted to eradicate the discrimination against slaves and poor and to emphasize the Islamic equality and brotherhood, as Zaynab was from the family of Abd al-Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet and the Chief of Quraysh, whereas Zayd was a slave who was freed by the Prophet.
Unfortunately, Zaynab due to her family pride, did not get along well with Zayd despite Prophet's persuasions. The rift between the two culminated into divorce. Meanwhile, the system of adoption of children was expressly forbidden by Allah. So, when Zayd divorced Zaynab, the Prophet of Islam, at the express command of God, married Zaynab; and, thus, put an end to the then prevalent belief that adopted sons were like real sons and that wives or widows of adopted sons were like daughters-in-laws.
An interesting bit of spin,
but it neglects to note the more factual points of the event.
And then the Qu'uran has this specifically to say about it:
When thou saidst to him whom God had blessed and thou hadst favoured, 'Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear God,' and thou wast CONCEALING WITHIN THYSELF what God should reveal, FEARING OTHER MEN; and God has better right for thee to fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished what he would of her, THEN WE GAVE HER IN MARRIAGE TO THEE, so that there should not be any fault in the believers, touching the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished what they would of them; and God's commandment must be performed. S. 33:37
Wow, what better way to legitimize doing the same thing you just forbade people to do, in taking your son's wife as your own, than by writing that it was Allah who commanded you to play a role in Deliverance?
Some rather amusing quotes from
here. The rest of the page is a list of amusing ideals, but have little connection to reality or mainstream Islamic practice. I.E. This shit does NOT happen in an Islamic country, except for perhaps Turkey.
"The most detestable of the lawful things in Allah's eyes is divorce."
"There is no better structure founded in Islam other than marriage."
"Engage in marriage; because this is the tradition of the prophet." (Yeah, but does that include marrying your own cousin?)
"The greatest blessing in the world is a pious wife."
So it was detestable that Zayd and his wife Zaynab divorced, because the Prophet had desires of his own on Zaynab. It is Zaynab's and Zayd's dishonor in Allah's eyes to divorce, and the Prophet makes Zaynab "whole" in the religion again by marrying her, as well as making other points mentioned above.
See how they conveniently bend around logic to suit their own needs?
So if you can't trust the Prophet's own words and his own actions, then what is left? The current incarnation of the religion? No luck there, either, if you live in a location where that religion is common.
[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.
Islam: The Preferred Religion of Abuse Co-Dependent Women Worldwide
It's just the whole cultural cruft that's attached to it -- even if it contradicts it entirely -- that can become rather harmful.
The amusing thing between the Bible and the Qu'uran is that the Bible is the one more derogratory towards women, but the Qu'uran has been interpreted into worse things, even blatantly contradictory to the Qu'uran. It is this acceptance of misinterpereted scripture that is the most disturbing part about it, in either religion.
But many muslims don't even know the Q'uran. Many have been taught its verses without understanding the language (Q'uran schools only serve to prevent the loss of the Q'uran through physical means (which is an unlikely thing to happen anymore in the first place) -- they don't have much of a constructive purpose beyond that). Some only know versions that have been edited for certain means (IIRC the Taliban used to distribute their own version).
Dude...the Taliban rewrote the Qu'uran into something truly hideous and disgusting, but it's far from the only Islamic country that abuses women or has re-written it so. About the
only modern Islamic country that even begins to approach any sort of "peace, tolerance, and kindness" towards anyone in any amount across genders, other religions, and other cultures, is Turkey. And the Qu'uran also says something in regards to non-believers, which worked for a bit after the religion started, with Christians and Jewish able to openly worship under Islamic rule, where other Arabs were threatened with death if they did not convert. But that was twisted to mean that the non-believers are not people, and therefore you can attack the non-believers and then be rightly defending yourself against them in the eyes of Allah. That came about due to the denigratory passages in the Qu'uran, that were taken at face value once the Prophet was worm food.
The main problem with the Qu'uran is in the writing. So much of it can be taken ambiguously, or can have supplements written into it that take what has been written before and pervert it, and the reader can be none the wiser. Damn, too bad both the Prophet and the founding fathers of the US didn't really count on people taking their ideals and twisting them for ill.
And those that know it? Don't think people would have their own thoughts about it just because they can read it -- just look at how strongly Christian fundies cling to their cults' interpretations of the Bible no matter how absurd or contradictive it may be, or how ignorant most other people are about its actual content despite having a copy of their own (and going to church a lot, where other people read the Bible for them).
Those who truly understand, but do not believe the religious text while taking part in the religion, are a danger, as they are the ones most likely to rewrite the religion to suit their own needs. Illiteracy and civil unrest only help it happen farther and faster.
There's not much to say against becoming a Muslim in the same sense many people refer to their selves as Christians -- it's just the actual "churches" that suck.
Sorry, but despite the Old Testament, Jesus and the bible had some pretty good teachings. Islam has some contradictory, derogratorily xenophobic, and often abusive things already written into it. Read some of the hadiths and actually think about the passages, and then try to say that Islam is fair to women. No way in hell. No fucking way. Even the Prophet was a misogynistic twit that basically put rape on the same level as sex in marriage, at least from an easy possible interpretation of the hadith:
"A wife should never refuse herself to her husband even if it is on the saddle of a camel."
So therefore, if the wife refuses, she is a sinner and can be beaten for not having sex whenever the husband desires. And in the US it's illegal to get a blowjob while you're driving, or while you're driving the presidential desk. Oh, what irony!
(At least it appears they had some imagination, the kinky bastards, but what else is there to do in the desert? I can imagine it would take some of the tedium from a "long ride".
)
Then further:
"A woman cannot fulfil her duties towards god without first having accomplished those that she owes her husband."
This, along with many other hadiths and passages of the Qu'uran, arranged marriages that were even quite common in the Prophet's time, the dowry the husband pays his wife - marriage in Islam is essentially a form of prostitution and slavery mixed into designed control and abuse, effectively treating women as objects that can be bought for sex as long as you can take care of them, effectively giving them the same living condition and treatment as pet animals.
And yet women are equal in Islam. Well, pardon my Orwellian, I just have to note that the men seem to be a little bit more equal than the women in Islam, even in the Qu'uran and by the Prophet's own actions, which are widely considered qawly (spoken) or fi'ely (acted)
fatwa, holy edicts, in themselves. Except for one thing, that the Prophet's /does/says/silently approves/was like/ were held as fatwa in themselves, to be specifically named hadiths. Some regions attribute them the "uncontestable" or with the same or higher "power" or "truth" as fatwa made by current religious leaders. Much like how Jesus' words are considered holy scripture.
But the Prophet hardly practiced what he preached, and I think that is the fundamental flaw in Islam. You can't expect people to follow the apostle's message faithfully when he wasn't able to do so himself, and he was Allah's go-to guy. Yes, the Prophet was human, but humanity generally has something called discipline and willpower, which the Prophet lacked. Humanity also has hypocrisy and dishonesty, which the Prophet fell ill to in leagues.
Including the fi'ely hadith that it is perfectly fine to be promised a wife when she is only six years old, and consummate the marriage when she is nine years old (and he probably only waited that long because A'isha's father asked the Prophet to wait three years before consummating the marriage), including rumors that it was while she was still playing with her dolls. And he also carried out and ordered raids against unguarded caravans for women and spoils, during the holy month. Peaceful religion, my ass, when the Prophet is a brigand, a murderer, a thief, a wife stealer from his own adopted son, an incestuous cousin-fucker, and a prepubescant child rapist. Wow, INSPIRING!
None of this means I hate or dislike Islam or its worshippers on a whole, as ther ARE plenty of good people despite the common representation; I just dislike what some rather loose wording and pre-existing abuse has led to an even greater level of abuse, in the name of enlightenment, and this abuse is regularly excused and apologized for. It is certainly a great case study for psychology, sociology, and religion, but in showing all the wrong lessons. Mostly, it's in denial. People have turned a blind eye to the core negative aspects of the religion, which are disgusting and numerous, and that is beyond the scope of cultural diversity, because they have been fully embraced and even enhanced under Islamic influence - which still doesn't make them right. They even go so far as to excuse it by saying it isn't in the Qu'uran or that the Prophet didn't do any of the things modern Muslims do. BULLSHIT, in cartloads.
But it must be excused, because like when any other cult comes under fire, threats and cries of bigotry are issues, threats and claims that nobody has yet to prove
how objecting to child rape and other abuse is bigotry. I really don't think it's bigotry to dislike the ill psychological effects of child rape, and what kind of message that sends to the woman about the future relationship, that they are a sex object like A'isha or Zaynab bint-Jahsh were to the Prophet, and the woman is expected to willingly do this. It also has been happening as far back as the Prophet himself, because he's the one that gave his blessing through both word and practice that this was acceptable standards in the religion, even to the point of gross hypocrisy of writing in a specific passage that excuses him from the same thing he said others were ungodly for, marrying the daughter of his son. He claims that Allah told him to do this, despite the fact that the Prophet saw his adopted son's wife half-naked and grew enamored with her.
Actually, come to think about it, the Prophet seems to be the Joseph Smith of the Mid-East (especially in the "making shit up to save his own ass from claims of hypocrisy" dept.), with A'isha playing his Helen Kimball, and Islam appears to be the Mormonism based upon Judaism instead of Christianity. Even down to the part of touching little kiddies, and if touching choir boys is bad, what about the effective purchase of an underaged sex slave? The difference is that in Islam, even by fthey don't even have to be sexually mature or sexually capable. How the FUCK can that be considered fair treatment, or even barely acknowledging the wife's wishes? No, sorry, she was a sexual object when the Prophet married her. I also have to note that, on his deathbed, he enacted a qawly hadith about "The curse of Allâh falls upon the Jews and Christians for they have made their Prophets’ tombs places of worship." And there's nothing better to bring the "curse of Allah" like the hands of the Islamic, right? Such
great words for inspiring peace. Oh, and many versions of the Prophet's death like to write her out from his side at his deathbed. You know, that whole unpopular "married for 12 years to a woman who was 18 when he died" that becomes evident to anyone capable of basic math, covered up by most Western Muslims because they see how well kidfucking is working for the Catholic Church, and is in fact used as a marriage guideline by other Islamic factions. In particular, the Taliban.
So far, I have seen little to suggest enlightenment or any of the other bullshit attributed to the Cult of Islam, especially when those who aren't in a controlled environment like many of the Islamic countries try to cover up the more unpopular aspects in clear attempts of history revisionism, and instead it appears to be merely a more sophisticated form of barbarism used to cheaply exploit people through lies, hypocrisy, and veils, much like any organized religion that involves itself in politics. Perhaps with wiser people ruling the religion, then it might have evolved into something more suitable towards enlightenment, truly making men and women equal and teaching peace through the Submission before Allah. But that could be said the same for nearly every religion. The sad thing is, none of the big three religions could be considered to be particularly enlightened, as their behavior as a whole suggests otherwise, contrary, and twisted from what is written by those held to be enlightened in any of the religions. It doesn't help when Allah's prophet acts like the red-headed step-child of the world's spiritual apostles. At least Yahweh Elohim's son and associated prophets acted a bit better, and they were in the Mid-East, too. Hell, only Judas stabbed someone in the back, and in many modern Islamic places and especially in the Prophet's time and in the Prophet's trade of killing unguarded merchants to terrorize the Meccan, that's business.
A similar meaning for Submission is Control, and that is EXACTLY what Islam was designed to do - bring the people into Submission before Allah, and in direct proxy, before the religious leaders. I believe a common phrase is "whips of the mind lash harder than whips on the back", or something to that effect, and it cracks true.
