Hulk'O'Saurus
Still Mildly Glowing
Their concept is great. Their implementation is not.
Why I like Fallout 2 more than Fallout 1
- Thread starter ElloinmorninJ
- Start date
Still Mildly Glowing
Their concept is great. Their implementation is not.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
It's not great but I wouldn't say it is poor. It's satisfactory. I think if they didn't do a decent job at establishing their presence early on and throughout to make them into this looming shadow they'd be pretty crap, but 2 despite not having the same narrative pull that the first game has still has a feeling of building up to something big in the last "act".
ElloinmorninJ
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
San Francisco could’ve easily been made a great location if
a) the Scientology jokes, Kung-Fu and stereotypes were taken out, and the factions were made seriously, and
b) if it was more connected with the rest of the world.
I’m gonna make a mod one of these days.
a) the Scientology jokes, Kung-Fu and stereotypes were taken out, and the factions were made seriously, and
b) if it was more connected with the rest of the world.
I’m gonna make a mod one of these days.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
There's a throwaway line in the Fallout Bible about the Shi trading in fish from the bay. I feel like if they were a more serious faction that would have more play.
Hulk'O'Saurus
Still Mildly Glowing
San Fran was just severely under-developed. They didn't have the time to put in the effort.
ElloinmorninJ
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
The only actually interesting settlements in Fallout 2 are Necropolis and the *maybe* Boneyard, along with the super mutant locations and the BoS. Other then that they’re all super generic and lame.
Like, you have a basic farming town, dungeon, bandits setup with Shady Sands, Junktown is just...a regular town, and the Hub, nothing to even say about that it’s basically just Junktown but bigger.
Like, you have a basic farming town, dungeon, bandits setup with Shady Sands, Junktown is just...a regular town, and the Hub, nothing to even say about that it’s basically just Junktown but bigger.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
This is such a shit take it hurts. No wonder you like Fallout 3 if your value in Fallout town design comes down to how gimmicky and superficially wacky they are. Pro-tip, being reductionist isn't a good arguing method if you're trying to lay out a point. Try again.
ElloinmorninJ
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
It’s not the wackiness or gimmicks of Fallout 2 that drew me in, it’s the fact that there’s more to do.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Sure but saying that Fallout 1's settlements are lame is very unfair to the strength of their design. They aren't as uniquely "characterful" as Fallout 2 or New Vegas but I would make the argument that Fallout was primarily focused with attempting to establish a picture of a new world of which the towns in Fallout do very well, and as such the latter two games would have more of an onus to branch away from what had already been done. Secondly, Fallout's strength of town design is in the intended flow of place to place. IMO Fallout has maybe one of the strongest main quest flows of any game I've encountered.
Shady Sands is a very simple town with not much going on in terms of quests but it is great because it's the first town you come across and its an entirely "New World" settlement that is seemingly a self-sufficient agricultural community rather than "survivors" living off scraps. The towns buildings are these newly made, odd adobe buildings, there's an Egyptian style hieroglyphic pillar in the centre of town, the townsfolk wear robes and talk about "Dharma", speaking of the world around them with an air of mysticism and the backing track to the village sounds like something you'd hear in a lost middle eastern temple. It is very far from your typical post-apocalyptic survivalist community. Apocalyptic southern california is suddenly an entirely new world.
This serves to immediately and interestingly juxtapose the world from the introduction you've just recieved (The Old World intro with the Ink Spots, the art-deco and Cold War bunker style vault with sci-fi jumpsuits) to the world of the Wasteland. Rocking up to Shady Sands feels alienating and contrasting, achieving immediately the goal of making the Old World and the Wasteland visually distinct from one another. It also shows that this is a world where civilization is rebuilding, even if its only to a small extent. It also serves lots of nice small gameplay purposes (The story of Vault 15 a warning for your own Vault, recruiting Ian, using Skills in-gameplay to help their farm and heal the radscorp victim, realizing you need to use your head when you're warned about the elevator being out - and implicitly needing a rope) it also leads into the Khans quest which is IMO still one of the best Raider-centric quests in the series.
If Shady Sands is a contrast from Vault 13 and the Old World, then Junktown is equally a contrast from Shady Sands. Here we see the other end of the Wasteland coin, the first thing we see is the towns walls and gates which are made of scrap-metal, hastily put together with old hulking wrecks of Old World cars. The places name is simple and literal "Junktown", its utilitarian and not very pretty. The soundtrack fits the places description as a hazey, dreary place that smells like burning rubber and trash. This place is living in the shadow of the apocalypse in more ways than literally living within the pre-war world's junk. You aren't greeted by a friendly man in robes and a happy greeter, you're met by a guard wearing football armor slinging a shotgun and being pretty shirty with you, especially if you arrive at night past curfew.
The attitude and content of this place juxtaposes Shady Sands, an almost tribe like community where everyone knows eachother, supports eachother and the only violence is against those outside of their walls who try and hurt them. Here, you've got to buy (barter) what you need, there's guns everywhere, a very scuzzy casino, a hotel with a local gang and prostitutes, and there's a war going on within the town's community itself. A "war" that involves backstabbing, sleight of hand, and hired killers even from someone who is reportedly a stand-up guy for these parts. Here you can see the shadow of the world before with its vices of sin and human darkness have still managed to filter through the end of the world. You also get your first meaningful choices that really determine what kind of man/woman you are in a very scuzzy scenario. Within the first two towns, though not particularly gimmicky, a very strong picture of the post-atomic world has already been established and you've used your characters skills, your own intelligence and made your own decisions.
However, these two places are both very small communities and they have a feeling of isolation to them not too dissimilar to your own Vault, especially Shady Sands. But both towns have mentioned trading...is there a wider civilization out there, or is humanity reduced to cinders and isolated desert villages? Well not quite. There's the Hub, the furnace of post-war civilization and almost a marriage of the two sides of the coin we've just seen. By raw comparison this places feels huge. A veritable city full of life and a feeling of progress like Shady Sands, but it still has that atomic shadow and edge from Junktown. Here there is a huge amount of content to do. Barter at the countless stores, bars, armories, drug dealers, casinos. Work for the caravans as a guard. Uncover a hidden guild of thieves and work for them. Take on a street gang and save a hostage. Uncover the Hub's shady underground and work as a hired killer. Help the town guard clear up shop and bring down the scuzz factor, help one of the city's farmers retake his homestead, find out why that iguana vendor's meat tastes so weird, uncover the mystery gripping the traders of the city: What mysterious monsters are disappearing our caravans?
There's a history to learn too, this place has been around long enough and is important enough to have a history to recount. Water Wars, family feuds. An insight into the economy and society of the Wasteland. Not to mention, you've got your own quest. The feeling of filtering through a busy bazaar searching for your quest, discovering plot threads and intriguing secrets. Harold and his story, the Super Mutants and the Deathclaws. Why doesn't Necropolis bend to the Water Merchants like everyone else? The Hub is the core of Fallout's worldbuilding in that it represents everything the Wasteland is about: New civilization in the shadow of the old, building out but suffering from the same problems of humanity that have existed in so many places and forms throughout our history. Life, bloody and violent as it is.
That's just the first three towns. Alls I'm saying is that you are doing a major disservice to Fallout 1's design by ignoring its excellent world flow, quest flow and the establishment of the setting, world, themes and style that have carried an entire franchise. The towns may not have a giant dinosaur or chinese kung-fu fighters, but they are each excellently designed.
T
TorontoReign
Guest
Fallout 1 doesn't have a giant aircraft carrier as a main location so it's super boring dude. Forget like the most iconic PA town of all time.
ElloinmorninJ
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Fallout 1 doesn't have a giant aircraft carrier as a main location so it's super boring dude. Forget like the most iconic PA town of all time.
You ever think of becoming a writer?Sure but saying that Fallout 1's settlements are lame is very unfair to the strength of their design. They aren't as uniquely "characterful" as Fallout 2 or New Vegas but I would make the argument that Fallout was primarily focused with attempting to establish a picture of a new world of which the towns in Fallout do very well, and as such the latter two games would have more of an onus to branch away from what had already been done. Secondly, Fallout's strength of town design is in the intended flow of place to place. IMO Fallout has maybe one of the strongest main quest flows of any game I've encountered.
Shady Sands is a very simple town with not much going on in terms of quests but it is great because it's the first town you come across and its an entirely "New World" settlement that is seemingly a self-sufficient agricultural community rather than "survivors" living off scraps. The towns buildings are these newly made, odd adobe buildings, there's an Egyptian style hieroglyphic pillar in the centre of town, the townsfolk wear robes and talk about "Dharma", speaking of the world around them with an air of mysticism and the backing track to the village sounds like something you'd hear in a lost middle eastern temple. It is very far from your typical post-apocalyptic survivalist community. Apocalyptic southern california is suddenly an entirely new world.
This serves to immediately and interestingly juxtapose the world from the introduction you've just recieved (The Old World intro with the Ink Spots, the art-deco and Cold War bunker style vault with sci-fi jumpsuits) to the world of the Wasteland. Rocking up to Shady Sands feels alienating and contrasting, achieving immediately the goal of making the Old World and the Wasteland visually distinct from one another. It also shows that this is a world where civilization is rebuilding, even if its only to a small extent. It also serves lots of nice small gameplay purposes (The story of Vault 15 a warning for your own Vault, recruiting Ian, using Skills in-gameplay to help their farm and heal the radscorp victim, realizing you need to use your head when you're warned about the elevator being out - and implicitly needing a rope) it also leads into the Khans quest which is IMO still one of the best Raider-centric quests in the series.
If Shady Sands is a contrast from Vault 13 and the Old World, then Junktown is equally a contrast from Shady Sands. Here we see the other end of the Wasteland coin, the first thing we see is the towns walls and gates which are made of scrap-metal, hastily put together with old hulking wrecks of Old World cars. The places name is simple and literal "Junktown", its utilitarian and not very pretty. The soundtrack fits the places description as a hazey, dreary place that smells like burning rubber and trash. This place is living in the shadow of the apocalypse in more ways than literally living within the pre-war world's junk. You aren't greeted by a friendly man in robes and a happy greeter, you're met by a guard wearing football armor slinging a shotgun and being pretty shirty with you, especially if you arrive at night past curfew.
The attitude and content of this place juxtaposes Shady Sands, an almost tribe like community where everyone knows eachother, supports eachother and the only violence is against those outside of their walls who try and hurt them. Here, you've got to buy (barter) what you need, there's guns everywhere, a very scuzzy casino, a hotel with a local gang and prostitutes, and there's a war going on within the town's community itself. A "war" that involves backstabbing, sleight of hand, and hired killers even from someone who is reportedly a stand-up guy for these parts. Here you can see the shadow of the world before with its vices of sin and human darkness have still managed to filter through the end of the world. You also get your first meaningful choices that really determine what kind of man/woman you are in a very scuzzy scenario. Within the first two towns, though not particularly gimmicky, a very strong picture of the post-atomic world has already been established and you've used your characters skills, your own intelligence and made your own decisions.
However, these two places are both very small communities and they have a feeling of isolation to them not too dissimilar to your own Vault, especially Shady Sands. But both towns have mentioned trading...is there a wider civilization out there, or is humanity reduced to cinders and isolated desert villages? Well not quite. There's the Hub, the furnace of post-war civilization and almost a marriage of the two sides of the coin we've just seen. By raw comparison this places feels huge. A veritable city full of life and a feeling of progress like Shady Sands, but it still has that atomic shadow and edge from Junktown. Here there is a huge amount of content to do. Barter at the countless stores, bars, armories, drug dealers, casinos. Work for the caravans as a guard. Uncover a hidden guild of thieves and work for them. Take on a street gang and save a hostage. Uncover the Hub's shady underground and work as a hired killer. Help the town guard clear up shop and bring down the scuzz factor, help one of the city's farmers retake his homestead, find out why that iguana vendor's meat tastes so weird, uncover the mystery gripping the traders of the city: What mysterious monsters are disappearing our caravans?
There's a history to learn too, this place has been around long enough and is important enough to have a history to recount. Water Wars, family feuds. An insight into the economy and society of the Wasteland. Not to mention, you've got your own quest. The feeling of filtering through a busy bazaar searching for your quest, discovering plot threads and intriguing secrets. Harold and his story, the Super Mutants and the Deathclaws. Why doesn't Necropolis bend to the Water Merchants like everyone else? The Hub is the core of Fallout's worldbuilding in that it represents everything the Wasteland is about: New civilization in the shadow of the old, building out but suffering from the same problems of humanity that have existed in so many places and forms throughout our history. Life, bloody and violent as it is.
That's just the first three towns. Alls I'm saying is that you are doing a major disservice to Fallout 1's design by ignoring its excellent world flow, quest flow and the establishment of the setting, world, themes and style that have carried an entire franchise. The towns may not have a giant dinosaur or chinese kung-fu fighters, but they are each excellently designed.
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
The settlements you mentioned are in Fallout 1. Dumbass.
You ever think of shut the fucking up?
Ugly Kid
Still Mildly Glowing
Dang fellas, it's not that serious.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Hey I actually personally prefer Fallout 2 to 1 but on a technical level I view the first game as better
ElloinmorninJ
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
It’s a video game, what are you getting worked up over?