WW2 Discussion

[Superman]

As I am heavily interested in World War 2, I thought I might start a discussion thread on the subject.

I'll start off with a question for any German members:

When learning about history in school, how was your countries involvement during WW2 taught? Hopefully this is appropriate to ask, but I've always wondered how the subject of WW2 was taught in Germany.

 

[SuAside]

I'm not german, but I've been told that the normal german curriculum fails to go into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918–19 after WW1, which can partially explain why many germans were easily manipulated into thinking the jews were to blame for so many of their troubles.

Obviously not making any apologies for the nazi supporters, but if you miss the revolution of '18-'19, your outlook on the manipulation of the german population before and during WW2 is likely very different. It's almost as important as the Treaty of Versailles when it comes to setting the stage for WWII.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

A recording sure to be interesting to WWII fans.

 

[Hassknecht]

I'm not german, but I've been told that the normal german curriculum fails to go into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918–19 after WW1, which can partially explain why many germans were easily manipulated into thinking the jews were to blame for so many of their troubles.

Obviously not making any apologies for the nazi supporters, but if you miss the revolution of '18-'19, your outlook on the manipulation of the german population before and during WW2 is likely very different. It's almost as important as the Treaty of Versailles when it comes to setting the stage for WWII.

Actually, at least in my school* WWI and the post- and interwar periods are extensively covered, culminating in an extensive treatment of the Third Reich and WWII.
That obviously includes the November Revolution, and the causes of growing antisemitism and so on.

*there are different forms of school, so maybe some other schools don't cover it that much. But all german schools are notorious for going into detail about WWII and the time leading up to it.

 

[comscar]

I did a bit of researching on WW2 a few years ago. It's amazing just how much was lied about, and how it relates to just how messed up the world is today.

It's really true what they say, history is written by the victor.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Do I even dare to ask what kind of lies you're talking about ...

I'm not german, but I've been told that the normal german curriculum fails to go into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918–19 after WW1, which can partially explain why many germans were easily manipulated into thinking the jews were to blame for so many of their troubles.

Obviously not making any apologies for the nazi supporters, but if you miss the revolution of '18-'19, your outlook on the manipulation of the german population before and during WW2 is likely very different. It's almost as important as the Treaty of Versailles when it comes to setting the stage for WWII.

Actually, at least in my school* WWI and the post- and interwar periods are extensively covered, culminating in an extensive treatment of the Third Reich and WWII.
That obviously includes the November Revolution, and the causes of growing antisemitism and so on.

*there are different forms of school, so maybe some other schools don't cover it that much. But all german schools are notorious for going into detail about WWII and the time leading up to it.

If you ask me, sadly the schools leave out lot of important historical informations, which are needed to understand that the antisemitism, which culminated into the persecution and killing of jews in concentration camps, was actually present in many western nations at that time. It is not a very popular opinion with schools, but what happend in Germany, is in my opinion, just the culminating point of a very old and long tradition of European/American antisemitism. Pogroms and not just against jews have been very common in Europe. The Holocaust simply was one of the worst cases so far. And antisemitism, was widely accepted and tolerated, even before WW1. And not just in Germany. You have cases like the Dreyfus affair, the false conviction of a French officers which was heavily based on his jewish origin. Or the antisemitic book, the international Jew, which was founded and published by Henry Ford. It was Ford who received a lot of praise and recognition by Hitler and the NSDAP after all. The situation in the east, like the Sovietunion was hardly better.

Jews, have been extremly well assimilated into Germany, which explains as well why so many actually remained in Germany after 1933, as they saw themself as Germans, many of which also fought in WW1 for Germany, and they could not fathom why the nation they fought for, is treating them like that.
To many people think WW2 and the Hollocaust was something special, so special that there is no way it could repeat it self. But I fear, that is a very huge error. I see people today thinking very positive about Jews, due to their suffering from the Holocaust and all those images, while at the same time having racist opinions, hating homosexuals or displaying a huge irrational fear from all sorts of immigrants.

 

[comscar]

You might find this documentary interesting. It's actually what got me interested. Mostly because when I first saw it, it baffled me why a Jew would look into such a terrible thing in history in a different manner.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

You might find this documentary interesting. It's actually what got me interested. Mostly because when I first saw it, it baffled me why a Jew would look into such a terrible thing in history in a different manner.

Your arguing is pointless, even if he agrees with you it's illegal for him to say it since he's German.

Do I even dare to ask what kind of lies you're talking about ...



If you ask me, sadly the schools leave out lot of important historical informations, which are needed to understand that the antisemitism, which culminated into the persecution and killing of jews in concentration camps, was actually present in many western nations at that time. It is not a very popular opinion with schools, but what happend in Germany, is in my opinion, just the culminating point of a very old and long tradition of European/American antisemitism. Pogroms and not just against jews have been very common in Europe. The Holocaust simply was one of the worst cases so far. And antisemitism, was widely accepted and tolerated, even before WW1. And not just in Germany. You have cases like the Dreyfus affair, the false conviction of a French officers which was heavily based on his jewish origin. Or the antisemitic book, the international Jew, which was founded and published by Henry Ford. It was Ford who received a lot of praise and recognition by Hitler and the NSDAP after all. The situation in the east, like the Sovietunion was hardly better.

Jews, have been extremly well assimilated into Germany, which explains as well why so many actually remained in Germany after 1933, as they saw themself as Germans, many of which also fought in WW1 for Germany, and they could not fathom why the nation they fought for, is treating them like that.
To many people think WW2 and the Hollocaust was something special, so special that there is no way it could repeat it self. But I fear, that is a very huge error. I see people today thinking very positive about Jews, due to their suffering from the Holocaust and all those images, while at the same time having racist opinions, hating homosexuals or displaying a huge irrational fear from all sorts of immigrants.

You see people having positive opinions of the Jews despite being "evil racists" because the negative ones are illegal, obviously. If German courts can send 87-year old grandmothers to prison for Shoah-denial, they obviously wouldn't be merciful towards your average Hans either.

 

[Hassknecht]

If you ask me, sadly the schools leave out lot of important historical informations, which are needed to understand that the antisemitism, which culminated into the persecution and killing of jews in concentration camps, was actually present in many western nations at that time. It is not a very popular opinion with schools, but what happend in Germany, is in my opinion, just the culminating point of a very old and long tradition of European/American antisemitism. Pogroms and not just against jews have been very common in Europe. The Holocaust simply was one of the worst cases so far. And antisemitism, was widely accepted and tolerated, even before WW1. And not just in Germany. You have cases like the Dreyfus affair, the false conviction of a French officers which was heavily based on his jewish origin. Or the antisemitic book, the international Jew, which was founded and published by Henry Ford. It was Ford who received a lot of praise and recognition by Hitler and the NSDAP after all. The situation in the east, like the Sovietunion was hardly better.

Well, dunno what school you went to, but ours covered the roots of antisemitism in detail. And my year was the first to get centralised Abitur in NRW, so it was not special treatment from our school.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Eh, we learned a lot about the Nazis and how they came in to power. But in class it was most of the time about the effects of fascism and antisemitism, like Yo! Progroms are shit! But that doesn't encourage people to think about the subject, the cause and effect, that it's not so much about jews, but simply a general part of human nature.
For example, we never explored the economical ties between the Third Reich and industrials of nations like France, Britain and the US in particular, who despite of the obvious fascism supported German industries pretty much the day before the war started. American petrochemical industries continued to sell Tetraethyllead to Germany for their planes up to 1941, or the involment of IBM with Hollerith machines and the concentration camps.
But I think you're right, it depends a lot on the teacher you have and how they treat the subject. It's pretty silly anyway if you ask me. How much time do they spend with WW2 anyway? I remember we had it for a couple of weeks, but that's all in all just a few hours, when you consider that we had what 2 hours of history class per week?

But I am not sure how to explain it english. I am sadly not a historian. However, as someone who has spend a lot of time with WW2, the politics behind it and all that, I feel there is way to much focus on the big crimes, like the visuals, the schock value. That's all nice and dandy, but I feel it is loosing a lot of its effect. WW2 and the Holocaust happened 70 years ago. People today are getting tired of it. And despite the fact that many people think, it can never happen again, you see the exact same kind of rhetoric, tactics and resentment making their way back in to democratic societies, like France, the US and also Germany. And the Balkan has shown very nicely that it CAN happen again. Just that it's not about Jews this time. But Immigrants, Refugees and Muslims. It's interesting you know, just recently I had a very good discussion with a teacher, who just had fascism as topic with his class. And we talked about concentration camps, antisemtism and islamophobia today, how it resembles a lot what happend 100 years ago in the 1920s and 30s, how political groups can so easily use irrational fear in their advantage. And I told him, for me Omarska in Serbia, was a concentration camp. His answer, he agrees with my opinion, but he is not allowed to say something like that in class, because he would loose his job, because the Holocaust and concentration camps are special. You're not allowed to make such comparision, particularly not as German teacher - his words!

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

And the Balkan has shown very nicely that it CAN happen again. Just that it's not about Jews this time. But Immigrants, Refugees and Muslims. It's interesting you know, just recently I had a very good discussion with a teacher, who just had fascism as topic with his class. And we talked about concentration camps, antisemtism and islamophobia today, how it resembles a lot what happend 100 years ago in the 1920s and 30s, how political groups can so easily use irrational fear in their advantage. And I told him, for me Omarska in Serbia, was a concentration camp. His answer, he agrees with my opinion, but he is not allowed to say something like that in class, because he would loose his job, because the Holocaust and concentration camps are special. You're not allowed to make such comparision, particularly not as German teacher - his words!

Duh, what did you think, that you can actually compare the suffering of the chosen people to that of filthy goyim?

But viewing the Muslims as "the opressed" in the whole Balkan scenario is just ridiculous, they were just as bad as everyone else, if not worse.
As for the refugees, there is a lot more sympathy for them in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia than Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic or Poland. Even Slovenia is doing way more to keep them out than the countries that actually had wars in the 90s.

 

[Crni Vuk]

But viewing the Muslims as "the opressed" in the whole Balkan scenario is just ridiculous, they were just as bad as everyone else, if not worse.

I ... never said other ethnic groups and nations havn't comitted war crimes. But I am not a Croat, Slovenian or Bosnian and my parents are neither. I am well aware about the fact that you probably won't find a nation on the Balkan that is completely without blame here. But it is not on me to tell a Croat how his nation has to deal with their crimes, because that's not where my roots are from. As a Serbian, I want to see Serbian war criminals facing trials and the consequences of their actions. Omarska was a camp run by Bosnian Serb forces, the ethnic clansing in Prijedor was done by said Bosnian Serbs, and Serbian soldiers and paramilitary groups have comitted crimes and attrocities in Sebrenica, Vukovar and other reigions of former Yugoslavia. The crimes and attrocities of other groups and nations, won't make those crimes less of a shame for Serbia.
It was always my opinion, if you want to start somewhere, it is always best to clean your own house first, before you start to lecture others about their crimes. Or you will never get out of this You are the worst! - No! You are the worst! cycle of violence and blaming, which is very common on the Balkan. And as far as that goes ... most Serbians won't even acknowledge the fact that we had a lot of generals, officers and politicans who did a hell lot of bad stuff.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

It was always my opinion, if you want to start somewhere, it is always best to clean your own house first

You mean clean it from kebab, right?

I see through your disguise.