Can we honestly say Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3?

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by Sn1p3r187, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Well, 4 still sucks no matter how you look at it. 3 created the precedent (though 3 is not god-awful like 4) so I still can't say 4 is better than 3.

    Oh, I see Phipps is still raving on about Bethesda's raiders and how 'deep' they are again despite how ridiculous and generic they actually are? Some things never change.

    I suspect any argument in favor of Bethesda's raiders will be twisted to favor Phipps' position at this point no matter how contradictory it is before denying said contradiction. Meanwhile, I wonder how cheap the DS3 bundle will be during the next Steam sales?
     
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  2. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    I think my perspective confuses people because I think killing, murdering, and yes even eating people is a natural expected response in a situation where you're in a hellhole. I imagine Mad Max and the Road Warrior as a fairly realistic result of a large scale planetary disaster. My arguments are based around the Capital Wasteland being a horrific environment that produces people willing to do anything to survive.

    The games postulate there was a hidden power behind them with the Pitt DLC.

    For me, I want Raiders to exist because they're an iconic part of post-apocalyspe fiction and enjoy the idea that the true face of civilization will be those who will tear it down. If NCR is ever destroyed, I'd love it to be the hands of a massive Hun army like Lanius versus something with pretensions of organization like Caesar.

    *pause*

    I guess what I'm saying is I'm overtly fond of Raiders the way I am the Helghast, WOW Horde, and Zeon. :)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  3. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    One group of people would think that naturally. Others will be focusing on survival, rebuilding, suicide etc. So it's not natural to everyone, only you.

    Even Road Warrior had people wanting to rebuild and survive. Unless you gave yourself amnesia with regards to the people with the petroleum.

    Except the raiders of FO3 are not explicitly working with Ashur. Only the Slavers of Paradise Falls are (in fact, why aren't the raiders working with the Slavers? It would make sense and it would benefit both sides).
     
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  4. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    I thought the Raiders were working with the slavers. Why some of the people at Paradise Falls looked like Raiders.
     
  5. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    The factions appear to be distinctly separate though for the most part. They are repeat customers at best but nothing else at worst.

    If the raiders weren't too busy being 'raihderps', there could be a proper alliance between the groups but Bethesda logic, so what can you do?
     
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  6. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Still Mildly Glowing

    Dec 6, 2016
    You forgot the rotting bodies as decoration. Hey, you can even have your own rayder theme for your cozy little house in Megatown. (It's funny to imagine Moira Brown hanging the corpses all over the place.)

    Seemingly diseases and vectors is not something to worry about in our WAAAAAACKY Capital Wasteland.
     
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  7. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Also the raiders from Ashur's army are not Capital Wasteland raiders, they were local raiders from Pittsburgh. After Ashur founded the Pitt by using local scavenger groups, the local raiders decided it would be a good target for raiding. Ashur killed most of the raider leaders and took control of them.
    He also recruits the toughest arena battlers to bolster his army.

    Now, why would raiders from the Capital Wasteland happen to wander around in the Pitt when:
    As we can clearly see ingame, the raiders from the CW barely brave outside of their "turf" at all.
    Why would they venture so far when that would take more than four days continuously walking non-stop if the people walking are not carrying much gear or other weight and the terrain is flat and open. Put in eight hours of rest per day and you get almost two extra days, factor the dangers of the wasteland and have to fight for survival and find a good route between the land and we can probably add another day.
    So it would take a raider band around an entire week of walking if not carrying much at all with them and with good terrain conditions to reach the Pitt from the CW. If they managed to raid anything worthwhile it could take almost twice that long to haul the loot back home. So they would need almost a month just to go to the Pitt and raid it and then return (and they are so weak that I doubt any would return, probably would end up being yao guai dinner).
    I don't think they would do that.
     
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  8. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    It'd be interesting what sort of transports which Ashur has. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence here.
     
  9. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Well we can always look at the only way of getting into and out of the Pitt. The Bridge that is full of car husks and mines... I don't think any kind of vehicles can pass there at all. We see train tracks but they are all full with empty and rusted train boxcars, so if he has any kind of train he can't use the tracks because they are blocked, we walk around all of Ashur's territory in the DLC and there is no brahmins or other vehicles, the door to the Pitt (past the wire fenced gate) is also too small for any kind of vehicle besides a bicycle, the road is also full of proximity mines, the river is too radiated and kills anyone near it in seconds so there is no chance of boats being usable either...
    Just because we don't see vehicles doesn't mean we can't assume there are no vehicles when everything about the accessibility to the location, dialogues, what we actually see, etc points there is no vehicles or the chance for vehicles in there.
    Assuming that there are vehicles is more of a stretch than assuming there are not due to all the factors the actual game shows and tells us. :shrug:

    By that logic we could start saying stuff like "The Enclave also has a Liberty Prime, because they are more advanced than the BoS and even perfected pre-war technology like vertibirds and power armor. We don't see it ingame but that doesn't mean they don't have it." for example. :confused:
     
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  10. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Except, of course, we know Ashur receives regular shipments of slaves at the very least and also potentially large amounts of raided supplies.

    How do they get there?

     
  11. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Regular shipments of slaves that are usually 4 slaves judging by his latest shipment waiting to be shipped via the handcart (which can probably carry around 2 standing up making the handcart move and probably 4 to 6 other people sitting on it).
    Also worth noticing that the shipments do not happen that regularly, in the time we spend on the Pitt no new shipment arrives and no new slave appears (even after we finish the DLC and return later).

    So yeah, the handcart can carry the slave shipments easily.
    It's logical


    EDIT: Also about slavers and raiders.
    I still can't understand why you think both are the same. Slavers do not wear the same equipment as raiders (raiders wear raider armor while slavers wear a range of armors, from merc outfits passing by metal armor and finishing with combat armor). Not even one slaver wears raider armors. They do not have bloody and gore parts (the common raider theme statics that can be found in any raider "base" in the game) anywhere in Paradise Falls as decoration or otherwise, they have their own different factions in the game code (all raiders belong to the "RaiderFaction" while slavers have different factions "SlaverFaction" "ParadiseFallsSlaverFaction" "SlaverMemorialFaction") and there are no slaver or raider NPC that belongs in both a slaver and a raider faction. You can enslave raiders and sell them to the slavers but you can't enslave any slaver at all, even if they belong to a different faction than the "ParadiseFallsSlaverFaction". Even their models are different, Slavers are usually clean while raiders are dirty.
    They really are totally different factions anyway you look at it.

    FO3 Raiders:


    FO3 Slavers:
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  12. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    The only situation where that kind of thing has happened in our recorded history are related either to ritualistic killings OR completely catastrophic situations, like strandings. And then it's for NECESSITY, survival, when there is abolutely nothing else in range of weeks. After a flood or a fire, which is more equal to this situation, people doesn't go "Oh wow, there's been a disaster! Let's go kill, steal and rape, and most of all, EAT PEOPLE!"
    ef00f24c-2b0e-461d-8d7d-f4a41e531dd2.jpg
    A-gain. Why don't you do that for the Legion, then? You are just embelishing "I have to make it all up", and you love it. That's fine and dandy, but don't pretend that near nothing you said ever passed the minds of Bethesda's writers, so it's not canon so you ARE dwelling in fanon, by definition. Thus, it's to be dismissed.

    @Risewild Is more informed about Fallout 3 facts, anyway :?
     
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  13. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    May 17, 2016
    Basically the Khans, in other words. An actual Fallout raider faction, the archnemesis of the NCR since its first day, sharing the same origin and yet, they turned into a Genghis Khan kind of horde. A faction that is logical, has reasons for what they do, an economy, a social structure, a past, a future and actual geopolitical struggles. Basically what most fans of the good old Fallout cheer and want to see again!
    Hell, even the Fiends have something that drives them. They fight for a future of their own, they feel like defending a clearly defined territory against a foreign invador that threaten to force them to abandon their "traditional" way of life or to die by their hands. They have an economy, and they tie alliances, make compromises for preserving their identity etc.

    We could take examples of many raider factions here and there, even cartoonish ones to illustrate the point. Mad Max 2 raiders may be cheesy, but lord Humungus (my hero) has a good reason why he's brutal and why he's raiding forts : an immediate resource. And the movie is not very subtle at showing that in any other context, he'd be a civilized, intelligent man.
    Immortan Joe is a raider warlord, not because he's twisting his mustache and eating orphan puppies, but because he imposed his rule during the oil wars, took control of a rare resource and established a working trade triangle with gastown and the bullet farm, where he made sure his own family rules. And he's not a civilization destroyer. One generation after the apocalypse only, he actually BUILT his own civilization, with its own social, religious, political and military structure. Give him just one more generation and his army could become an actual, proper society like Caesar's Legion.
    The Helghasts are a very interesting faction. Killzone may be a brainless console shooter, but the antagonist faction is very, very well written, and the ending when you finally get to Scholar Visari clearly shows that the writers made researches on the complexity of actual geopolitical situations, and why tyrants can turn themselves into necessary evils for their own gain. And it gets better with every title, with the Helghan struggles with their private/public takeovers of the military, their refugees crisis etc.

    In other words, having warlords wearing tight leather and twirling their evil mustache is perfectly fine in Fallout. But in all these examples, these factions still have depth, logic, a reflexion on the time they're in, a past, a future and a logical resource. Basically, they're believable.

    I already said before that the Pitt raiders are the exception to the rule, in my opinion. They may be simple but they make sense, just like Skyrim's brigands make sense. They represent something, they have an economy, a resource and some sort of history. But when you compare them to Fallout 3 or 4 raiders (not slavers), I really have trouble finding even a quota of the depth of the previously mentionned raider factions.
    What's their story? What's their motive? What unites them? What are their beliefs, their goals, their past and the future they want to write? What do they represent? What power drives them?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  14. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Still Mildly Glowing

    Dec 6, 2016
    Fallout 4 has some raiders in a metallurgical industry. I don't remember very well if they have a complex origin or at least a origin, but I remember to thinking "uou, finally an interesting place in this game". There some cool terminals there and you can even talk to their leader, which is about the BGS, it is a impressive thing (in a Fallout, but in a TES is common).

    If I'm not mistake, you can also side with them.
     
  15. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    The Forged who are a break off faction of the Gunners who are maybe-possibly Vault Dwellers.
     
  16. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    WRONG

    The Forged are not a break-off of the Gunners, they are a group from outside the Commonwealth that got in to a conflict with the Gunners, and due to successfully repelling them, were admired by local Raiders who took there harsh trials to join up with them.
     
  17. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    What? That's not what the game said.
     
  18. rockitten

    rockitten It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jan 22, 2017
    Off-road campers usually make 16km MAX per day. 8 hours of sleep, 8 hours to set-up camps, collect food/water/firewood, make meals, and many rest in-between. So the 190+miles (305+km) journey from Pitt to DC would take you 2 MONTHS. And that is, if you are physically fit, with proper footwear, and do not get wounded or sick on the journey.

    I did that with friends once, from dawn to dusk, we made 18km off-road with many up-hill down-hill. My feet was killing me for the next 2 days. Yes, we were bunch of desk-jockeys so we were not that fast, but that's a single day trip so we skipped the camping part too.

    IMHO, by the way those slavers treat their slaves in FO3 and Pitt, most slaves would died on the journey and those who reached Pitt would be physically too weak to do any labor work at all. Feed them a few days of those radiated crap and they would all gone within days........
     
  19. naossano

    naossano Vault Fossil

    Oct 19, 2006
    They could use brahmin carts. Not faster, but it saves some strenght as they don't have to carry everything nor have to make everyone walk. Or they can make a longer trip. Or Ashur has other, closer, suppliers.