Estimated amount of critters in the fallout universe ?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Phil, Nov 28, 2005.

  1. Phil

    Phil It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 26, 2003
    This isn't a direct question regarding the amount of npc's in the fallout games. I'm currently wondering what the amount of people would be in the fallout world, in realistic terms - 50's, existance of vaults, limited alarming systems, public awareness, .. - about 100 years after a war.

    I'm interested in the numbers of the main ones (Humans, Mutants, Ghouls, Brahmin, geckos, rats, insects, etc ..).

    I was currently going for 110.000 humans, 10.000 mutants (includes supermutants, pets, etc ..), 15.000 ghouls, 240.000 rats, and so on, but to be honest, I'm thinking those numbers are a bit low (we're talking 1/3 of the current USA - yup, mmorpg) Nevertheless, I'm more interested in their shares than an actual number.

    Anyone care to provide me with some insights ?
  2. Finesse

    Finesse Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    May 2, 2005
    This should be in the general fallout discussion forum... it has nothing to do with modding.

    but if i had to guess... hmm, your pretty close
  3. Ashmo

    Ashmo Half-way Through My Half-life

    Jul 2, 2004
    The rats-to-humans ratio should be way higher than that. In the RPGs you'd even encounter them in the desert, so it's likely they adapted fairly well. Not all of them may be the size of the ones you encounter in the games, though (which would explain why you weren't overrun by them everytime you entered a semi-abandoned place).

    Considering that the more agricultural places depend on them, Brahmin should be quite numerous -- even the caravans need them.

    Since at least Gecko and Bakersfield were full of ghouls, I'd wager the lowest estimate would be twice the capacity of a vault, depending on how ghouls were created (if it's just radiation, there'll be LOTS of them), the highest estimate could become rather grotesque.

    I think the Super Mutant question was answered in Fallout 1 at some point, since the Master is the only source of Super Mutant production. Make an estimate on the number of humans (wastelanders and vaulters) encountered by the Unity, then maybe deduct a low percentage for failed experiments and test subjects, and maybe a higher percentage for people who resisted and got killed, or managed to escape, somehow.

    The lowest amount of humans would be the sum of the populations of all known vaults at the time they opened (ignoring those which broke in some way or another -- e.g. Bakersfield) -- as seen in the NCR, that number has likely increased after they opened, tho.

    Radscorpions and geckos are probably a local thing. Since the geckos seem to spread well in the greener areas rather than the mountains and deserts (where the radscorpions are), the numbers will probably not be as high as one would expect.

    I'd guess that the populations are ordered something like this by proportion:

    rats (as always) > scorpions (some regions seem to have big problems) > geckos (less widespread) > brahmin (mostly domesticated) > humans > ghouls (discriminated minority) > FEV mutants (originating from only one source).
  4. Kahgan

    Kahgan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 25, 2003
    And I think we can safely say that insects would exist in just as large amount after the war as before. Maybe not a year or two after, but five, ten years or so, they'd gro back extremely quickly I'd think.
    After all, insects have proven to be among evolutions' best creations of all time.
  5. Roshambo

    Roshambo Antediluvian as Feck

    Apr 3, 2003
    I detect a note of MMORPG in this, and while I am against that topic due to the MMOG mechanics interfering with basic CRPG aspects, not to mention what makes Fallout so dark, this topic does have some merit otherwise.

    Regardless of that, and back on topic...

    The best way to make a world come alive is to do as others have pointed out, by a proportional system. I would have to add that it would be much like real life, but with the science fiction twist to it.

    So...I'd guess you should take some wildlife statistics from the area you're going to "nuke", then replace species that might not have made it with mutated critters, adjusting accordingly for their new state (Radscorpions now reverting to the size of the great sea scorpions of eons ago), then twist the ones that would have made it. Even 80 years after the Great War, wildlife will have still flourished, but will have lessened quite a bit due to scarcer food. So then take those figures and drop them down a bit more. Then, make some species extinct, especially if their food supply doesn't naturally thrive or if they don't have the skills to fully scavenge in a post-apocalyptic wasteland on their own.

    Next, any critter inclusions should be rather dark, feral, and suited towards the post-apocalyptic world. They should also have a 50's sci-fi bent to them, and a background of some sort is preferable, but don't overdo it with a new mutation coming from a new flavor of toxic spill. They should also fit the location, for flavor purposes.

    These are in no particular order, but it is to demonstrate their position in the Fallout "ecosytstem" and how it parallels our own, to give a bit of background so that other critters may be included in similar style. Also remember the differences between FEV mutation and radiation mutation. MCA even hosed up the "Fallout Bibles" with that (which is generally why I didn't waste my time with them, because the lead developer for Fo2 was clueless even years after developing the game), in saying "Creatures not mutated by FEV probably did not survive the aftermath of the Great War, with the possible exception of cockroaches... and perhaps normal ants, though there are FEV-infected versions of these species."

    I guess MCA forgot the part in Fo1 where FEV was not airborne, but had to be injected or immersed to have any effect. Or that "radiation + FEV = death", as stated by...well, damn, even Zax itself, not to mention just about every FEV research tape found.

    Oh, and that the FEV experiments were moved to the Military Base before The Glow got nuked. Or that the presence of the FEV wasn't until relatively recent in the Fo1 timeline, as Harold and Grey didn't go into the Military Base and become separated until long after the Great War. It is also highly doubtful that creatures that wandered into the base and became mutated managed to wander miles away and widespread into human presence, like the brahmin, or even to the population of the other wasteland critters.

    Cockroaches = Well, maybe not well known in the 50's, nothing screams post-apocalyptic like these suckers still crawling around. Of course, they will mutate, and 1/4 of the population exposed to radiation will die off, due to being in the molting stage (and therefore vulnerable through split cells). They will still be plentiful, and will likely be found wherever there is dead.
    Rats = Plentiful, and generally how they are today. They also take to the ground and tend to have a good sense about their surroundings, so aside from a few at Ground Zero, I doubt the common rat population would go down. They would still inhabit around human dwellings first and foremost.
    Molerats = Radiation made these critters bigger, and in the general representation of the species in Fallout, they are like your medium-sized land predator, much like the wolverine or fox's place in Alaska. They still have the preference of the original species, to live in the dark and relatively near humans. I would say one of these for every hundred common rats, and varying for each flavor of mutant rat.
    Dogs = Perhaps the only untouched animal in the Fallout universe besides the common rat. It seems like about 1:50 dog:human, although some places might have a lot more given hunting preferences.
    Mantis = Perhaps similar insects like them could have survived and mutated, and I would even hazard a guess that like the brahmin, some herbivor insects may have survived. You would definitely see a lot more insects in the wasteland afterwards, because they are more resiliant.
    Mutant Venus Flytraps = Befitting Fallout, as this was a favorite toy plant for many people and classrooms in the 50's as a supplemental science teaching aid. Though, personally, have no damn clue how they originated in the Fallout universe, other than possibly a nursery got radiated with fertilizer and these things sprouted out.
    Geckos = Similarly showing the signs of both radiation mutation and Fallout's brand of sci-fi, in which the critter becomes overly aggressive.
    Wanamingos = Please just call and treat them like giant mutant ants. Please. :D
    Brahmin = The population is severely less than cattle previously, as the radioactive twisters miles wide have turned the cattle pens into the world's first and largest cyclonic neon barbecue, but about 1:5 to humans sounds right for brahmin in a farming community. I doubt you will find them elsewhere except for caravans.
    Radscorpions = Much like their normal counterparts, they tend to seek the dark places to hide, and may tend to be rare, surprisingly enough. You may run into them quite a few times in the wasteland, but with their body mass and preferences for caves to hide themselves in, they seem to be limited in where they live.
    DeathClaw = Grizzly Bear/Wolves, pack mentality and a great predator, even over mankind.
    Mutant Army = These freaks are made from everything else, apparently, and only come from one source. I'd say they should be limited in region, which seems to be a few square miles around the Military Base.
  6. Ausir

    Ausir Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Apr 20, 2003
  7. Phil

    Phil It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 26, 2003
    Ok, thanks a lot guys. I'll adapt the shares, and see how well the app scales. Would be great if I could truly make 20.000.000 rats, but that might just be a bit 'over the top'.

    About the MMORPG stuff: it's probably not what you expect: we're talking a Fallout pnp server here, asynchronously managed by a roleplaying website. It'll become clear in the future, but I prefer not to make too much noise (ref. the vaporware stuff). It's been in development for 1.5 year now, and I'm finally starting to get some stuff working.
  8. Roshambo

    Roshambo Antediluvian as Feck

    Apr 3, 2003
    Well, it still boils down to proportions. How many rats do you want each person to see? Is there an expected amount for them to kill? Then in MUD mechanics, I would suggest that you use a self-regulating population handler bot Imm in the MUD, to perform species balancing and to report general kill statistics to see who decides to kill what. It's a really handy way of doing things, and I have used them in the past on a couple of edumuhcashunal MUDs (it's so easy to alter a codebase for a new assignment, but with new application). That way, if the rats are killed a lot compared to the ratio you give, then the wild dog and possibly Radscorpion/Mantis population will go down as they attack people instead for food. The people (NPC hunters, sometimes, can be a neat way of handling species populations - have them go for whatever is considered to be overpopulated at the time, and they can also be used to simulate a player population as well) who are killed by the predators in turn are likely going to be the same ones who killed the rats, and it seems to work out. In return, the rat population will surge again, but during all this time you are tweaking the population ratios and how they respawn into the world, it gives the illusion of a rough ecosystem while also giving balance and disrupting a bit of tedium of gameplay, and eventually you will find a happily balanced medium. So if you kill off all of the predator's food supply - guess what? They are coming for you next.

    Ahhh, different brand of critter, then. :D I wholeheartedly support MUD and small multiplayer play, in non-commercial aspects when derived from a title, as it does allow people to roleplay in the universe, but it isn't so mass-produced there actually has hope of Imms operating in a storytelling capacity for more than 1% of the populace as in most commercial MMOGs. So it might actually resemble the universe in some part. Then the Imms can reflect the storytelling into their world, effecting changes upon the world, which is far more than what most commercial MMOGs ever have.

    I guess that is what gets me about Haris. The fool keeps trying to equate his little UOX server with validation for a Fallout Online made by Interplay. That also does explain why his mods just skullfuck Fallout's system and universe into MMOG play, just so he can prove that yes, Fallout can go the same way as Ultima. He obviously doesn't care about the RPGs.

    To be fair, it sounds like you know what you are doing, and have a good idea of what you are going for. That is a far cry from the vaporware attention whores like GameDev and SeanyD, who regurgitate a load of other games to hype their project and really don't have any other design down, as they linger on for years and years and only concept work can be shown for it. You're going for substance, I like that.