League of Legends

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by The Sixth Ranger, Oct 15, 2013.

  1. The Sixth Ranger

    The Sixth Ranger It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Mar 10, 2013
    I play LoL casually, my friend got me into it, and he forces me to play it incessantly. I think it is decent, but it has a rotten core. The fanbase is quite possibly worse than that of Fallout 3, and it is one massive money making machine. Team Fortress 2 wishes that it could match the micro-economy that LoL has created. It's fanbase is also quick to attack every single person who doesn't like the game or voices criticism against it. How about this little gem: a player lists several issues with LoL, when a moderator appears. The moderater has a real winning argument: u ar lvl 10, stfu n00b.

    So, what do you think of the game? Do you play it? Do you love it or hate it?
     
  2. The_Onesin

    The_Onesin First time out of the vault

    Oct 3, 2013
    You are right about LoL having a rotten core. Guinsoo is known for his crappyass balancing he did in early Dota Allstars, and dat early LoL balancing with massively overpowered Twisted Fates.

    Pendragon is also known for his atrocities in Dota Allstars community. Plus Morello, the leader of balance team is infamous for having an empty head when it comes to balancing. A.K.A. Nerf Master Sucktown

    Anyways going to the actual gameplay, I would say it is an interesting AOS game with heavy emphasis on character skills and control. It is pretty fun to play with variety of champions and rune + mastery customization which adds to strategic depth in Ranked games.

    I would say that one really good point in this game is that the game makes sure you are prepared to get into more competitive ranked by forcing you to play hundreds of games to reach that level. Some people might disagree with my point here but seeing that I saw heaven & hell with all those players with 0 experience leaving after feeding, I really do love this system.

    A lot of people complain about LoL having scums everywhere, but the playerbase is ironically better than games like Dota 2 or HoN. You think LoL is bad? Check those games out and tell me how many actual 5v5s you played. 80% of the games I played in Dota 2 ended up with 4v5,3v5 (out of like 300 games) because people just leave, and generally have much worse manners.

    Another good point about this game is that it encourages team fights. Laning phases are over pretty quickly and as soon as that happens, teamfights take place and it really is fun. Games like Dota and HoN has longer laning phase with more emphasis on setting up better teamfights and careful map control, while LoL puts more emphasis on unpredictable teamfights and fast paced action with unlimited wards, extra 2 summoner spells, and clearer role divisions.

    Personally to my surprise, I found that I love this game out of all the AOS (or MOBA) games out there. Out of like 1000 games played for each Dota (total of allstars + 2), HoN, and LoL, I had more good times with LoL. I do like slower and careful gameplay so I give more credits to HoN and Dota for that, but if I talk about number of 'proper 5v5' games I had and happenings, LoL is just best out of them.
     
  3. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    I don't believe for a second that a mod wrote that. Riot is working very hard to create a sportsmanlike and all-around nice atmosphere around the game, and from my experience mods are generally very nice and chill.

    As for it being "one massive money making machine", how is that bad in any way? It's the one game with the absolutely fairest and most generous free-to-play model around. You aren't forced to buy anything, and you don't even feel the need to buy anything to improve your game. Yet its popularity and fun gameplay generates lots of money for the developers, purely out of cosmetics and convenience for its players.

    I've played a lot of LoL and still play a lot from time to time and I think it's generally very good. It can be a bit imbalanced now and then, but generally I think they do a good job of hamering out balancing issues. They make changes to champions and items all the time, and everything is for balancing reasons. If you watch their patch previews where they taljk about the upcoming changes, you'll notice that they always motivate changes with the aim of creating a more balanced and at the same time diverse gameplay.

    As for the community, yes it's absolutely horrible. I don't see that many fan-boys around though. It's much more common that people rage about the game, attacking Riot for what type of champion they will release next, cry about their favorite OP champion getting nerfed, the classic "stop making champions, give us more maps", and so on. In-game, it's a lot of hostility and I usually don't care about the chat anymore.

    The complaints I have are that Riot should be cracking down on bad behaviour even harder. Even if it might be unrealistic considering the amount of games played evert day, it wouldn't hurt if they had people monitoring games every now and then and taking action immediately when people don't behave. I also have a strong feeling that new champions are very powerful upon release for the sole purpose of selling them, and then nerfing them when the hype is over. But to be honest, I don't think this is a massive issue and speaks more of the people playing the game who fall into the trap and are willing to spend money on a powerful champion they can't even play just to feel good for a few weeks. In the end, a mediocre champion in the hands of someone who knows it in-and-out is so much better than a powerful champion in the hands of someone who hasn't played it before.
     
  4. The Sixth Ranger

    The Sixth Ranger It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Mar 10, 2013
    Riot should be cracking down on bad player behaviour, especially the behaviour of the senior players. However, if Riot starts cracking down on bad behaviour, I think the fanbase will become even more embittered. The threads will probably be flooded with posts like 'lol Riot = North Korea' or people who will complain about how Riot treats the gamers. Riot should indeed crack down, but not with Runescape type actions.
     
  5. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    DotA player for life. That ought to answer your question.

    Actually, the situation is much less cut-and-dry with me. I took ample time to give LoL a shot. In fact, LoL was the first DotA clone (which Riot would LATER dub "MOBA") I played after I initially took a break from DotA. I practically hated it from the start, despite trying my best to open up to it. The gameplay just felt "watered down" in every aspect. Specific examples that I could cite which appeared to negatively affect the game were the complete and utter removal of the deny system, and the game speed running at roughly 60% that of other RTSs and ARTSs like HoN and the original DotA (and DotA2). By itself, these aren't necessarily bad things, but everything has a context, and in context of where LoL originated, these were detriments. No deny system means your opportunities for leveraging lane dominance and the overall options present for players are strikingly limited, and it cuts the manner of play in half. Slower pace dulls the player's senses over time, whereas quickened pace heightens it, so the game softens players over time and renders them complacent and lazy. These are just 2 tiny examples, but on their own they create massive, detriment problems for the game, and I couldn't overlook them while playing it.

    It has its good qualities, but I chiefly found them divorced from actual gameplay. The soundtrack has some pretty incredible scores, and they take the effort to create a short, but unique theme associated with every Champion as they add more, which is commendable. But it goes without saying, as nice as music is, it's still not the actual game. I have a few links to some of the tracks on youtube, and that's enough for me. I don't need to boot up the game to play them.

    To put my feelings for LoL into the best perspective that I can muster... I played DotA, LoL, HoN, and DotA2, all in that order, and between them, DotA is the one I can't give up... and I've tried. I've "quit" DotA more times that I can remember, but I always come back to it. It's not because Valve has turned it into a cash cow, or because its numbers have beaten LoL's following (and it has), or because the graphics are better or because I like the music more. In fact, the original DotA's graphics are appalling by today's standards, and the "seams" show very prominently where original game assets end and modded articles begin. Yes, DotA2 is by far the prettiest of the four, but that's really just icing. I come back to DotA because of the depth of gameplay that neither HoN nor LoL have ever come within a shadow of rivaling. HoN is a tad closer to it because unlike LoL it has the same mechanics, but its overall balance pales next to DotA's. The overall picture of DotA is a masterfully balanced work of art with a myriad complexities, each as intrinsic and detailed to learn as the game itself. There's no shortage of tricks and tactics to learn and employ, and they are all fostered by a stable roster backed by a compelling set of mechanics and equally balanced set of items. Every hero has a role, every item has its place, and every strategy is hypothetically viable. The most recent balance patch yielded some of the most colorful games out of the professional scene that has ever been witnessed, and Icefrog intends to keep working towards perfection at all times. The game has always been a masterpiece, and it just gets better with time. I've tried to quit it, and it just keeps pulling me back in. I've got friends who want me to play LoL, and I've had friends who tried pulling me into HoN, or Smite, and it just doesn't work on me. DotA doesn't need any of that. The sheer quality is all the incentive I need.

    For relevancy points, let's just say it's like FO3 compared to FO2. One's just better, even though another may be wildly more popular. Can't help that FO2 is just far more entertaining and enjoyable, and much more well written, so it's FO2 that'll keep me coming back, not FO3. So it is with LoL. It's not a terrible game, but uh... sorry, it just can't compare to its estranged sire.
     
  6. PlanHex

    PlanHex Useless layabout oTO Moderator Orderite

    Nov 4, 2007
    Maybe if all the champions were free, yes.
    As it is, you're forced to choose between rune pages, runes and champs from a low IP pool.
    I've got some 50+ champs out of the 115 or whatever unlocked after 1½ years of playing semi-regularly and never spending money on the game. All except one is from the <3151 IP range. There's still a ton of runes I'd like to have too.
    This shit is pretty absurd.
     
  7. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    LoL's F2P model favors grinding over paying. Skill matters most, but a player with a full runepage has a big advantage over a player with an empty win. Not to mention a much bigger roster of heroes. DOTA2 gives you every hero right out of the package.

    I used to play LoL a lot, but there are flaws within the gameplay that has caused me to slow it down. Summoner spells are a nice concept, but in practice not having Flash is pure folly, not having Ignite as solo laner is heresy, and not having Smite as jungle makes no sense. Runes, as I've said, favor grinding a bit too much, and some champions have been hit very hard by power creep, not to mention the clear imbalances regarding others *cough* fuckingamumu *cough*.

    It's still good for a game from time to time. But it's way too dependant on your team for me to ever play ranked like I do with Company of Heroes 2.

    And yeah, two months of uninterrupted playtime's worth of wins to access all champions? That's really absurd. But then, I still play World of Tanks from time to time and it's even worse.
     
  8. The_Onesin

    The_Onesin First time out of the vault

    Oct 3, 2013
    I would say that Ignite + Flash is not the only used summoner spells. I mean every games have certain build orders. Like in Starcraft all the races have different build orders in playing the game. Summoner spells are very similar in the concept. What you choose as summoner spells determine how you will play the game as well.

    I only use ignite for like 40% of the time. I use barrier frequently along with ghost. Ghost + Flash gives you unmatched mobility, sacrificing bit more of aggressive power of ignite.

    I do agree that they need to balance out the summoner spells though. Balance gaps between many of them are way too much.
     
  9. pyroD

    pyroD Still Mildly Glowing

    Aug 26, 2012
    Steep learning curve with horrible community that only put you down instead of teaching. All my friends play that game and force it on me but I hate it.
     
  10. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    There are 12 summoner spells, IIRC. How many do you see regularily (IE more than once per match per team) save for Flash, Ignite, Barrier, Ghost and Smite? Everyone uses Flash, it's mandatory, not using it is shooting yourself in the foot, period, and I'm not sure I like that kind of design. It's also all too useful of a potential get out of jail free card. I'd actually be an advocate of removing Flash, personally.

    On another note, I'm just curious, which champions do you guys play most? I'm becoming increasingly fond of Gragas myself. Good damage, mad sustainability, good mobility, and a killer ult. Middle is my favourite position, and he's becoming my main man there.
     
  11. The_Onesin

    The_Onesin First time out of the vault

    Oct 3, 2013
    Well I usually autolock Jungle and Mundo is my main champion. Although these days I'm having a lot of fun with Shen and Shyvana.

    Although I would say champions I used to play the most are: Kayle, Jarvan IV, Zed, and Anivia.
     
  12. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    So? No one's saying you need to unlock all champions. I have friends who are Platinum and Diamond who never spent a cent on the game and don't have nearly all of the champions unlocked.

    Besides, I've even unlocked champions and bought skins for free RP Riot has given away on several occasions. And they keep lowering the prices for old champions.

    In my book, if you're whining about the f2p model in LoL, you're pretty greedy.
     
  13. PlanHex

    PlanHex Useless layabout oTO Moderator Orderite

    Nov 4, 2007
    Well, lucky fucking you then.
    I've only gotten IP boosts on rare occasions.
     
  14. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    See, among many of the issues that LoL has, mechanical or otherwise, in the realm of the social dilemmas that plague LoL (toxic community the best example), the playerbase makes excuses for a lot of the problems, and that's a major issue in itself. There's plenty of examples of that in this thread alone!
    This is a good example of LoL apologist behavior covering for a bad mechanic. Summoner Spells aren't at all similar to Starcraft build orders, because all sides start with the same thing in SC, SC2, WC2, WC3, so on and so on. Maintaining your build on a schedule (make 3 Queens by x minutes, expand by y minutes) isn't GIVEN to you, you make it happen. Builds are a strategy, a skill, and a practice all in one. You don't "make" Flash happen, in LoL. The game gives it to you, and one other Summoner Spell, which you unlock via account leveling. Having 2 spells that are always there regardless of your ability creates the opposite effect of any build order, because they counteract the strategic element that games like LoL were born from. You don't get those spells by leveling your Champion and choosing to skip one level of another spell in exchange for Ignite. In HoN, a player who picks Scout with any brain cells will pick a level of his Wards before his other abilities, which will delay his own ability at the beginning of the game, but provide a vital scouting service for his entire team. The game didn't "give" the player that, he made a strategic choice, and his own skill- leveling despite being weaker early on, getting farm despite being a predictable melee hero that truesight will almost completely counter -will get him his skills. It's all a player's choice, because it follows the model that player skill determines ultimate success. Summoner Skills don't follow that model. They can't be compared to things that actually do.

    This is another great example. I know LoL isn't an ARTS game, but it was based on one. The idea that you can just withhold the total Champion Pool from any player, an absolutely vital resource for a player's overall strategy, is just absurd. Supporting the concept is just ignorance. "No one's saying you need all of the Champions" you say? What ridiculousness. Of course, the game gets by through promoting a model where player ability is muted next to other resources, thereby creating a strong Cash Store economy for Riot, but "getting by" does not make it a fantastic game. That's a sign of a problem, and not only does Riot choose to ignore the problem, but players apologize on behalf of the game's problems, because..... well I don't know why. The apologist mindset eludes me. Just like Summoner Spells, the game not allowing you to have all Champions available inhibits the overall strategy for players to have. Their curious answer is to not restrict Champion choice across teams (if one side picks Draven, the other side can pick Draven to "counter" him), but that doesn't really answer the vacancy of overall strategy, either. Picking Earthshaker in answer to Magnus is a strategic choice, because you can't just pick another Magnus. Picking Chipper in answer to picking Deadwood is a strategic choice, because you can't just pick another Deadwood. If half of the Hero Pool was just not available in HoN or DotA2 (and for beginners, a large chunk IS unavailable in HoN, but it unlocks automatically the more you play, and NOT through "buying" them) then those choices would just be withheld from you, and that inhibit strategy, which begs the question "Then what's the point of the game?" The encapsulated 30-60minute average game where you start with a low level character and grind them to higher level and work with a team to overcome another team and finish the game is central to the entire design of the game. You get from game start to win or lose by the culmination of your own abilities. You don't "unlock" some kind of advantage at the start of the game; skill is central to everything.

    Don't make excuses for a flaw in the game you love. Own it and address it. We don't ignore the flaws in the engine that FONV runs off of, even if we love the game. We don't ignore the infestation of game-breaking glitches in FO2 just because we love FO2. I don't excuse the NIGHTMARE of imbalance issues that plagued DotA2 during the dark days of 6.77, even though I loved the game. Own the problems, don't pretend they don't exist. They don't get better by just ignoring them. We didn't get killap's work by pretending FO2 worked perfectly, and 6.78 didn't address the balance problems because fans just pretended DotA2 was perfectly balanced. Making excuses on behalf of the game you love will only perpetuate the state it's in, and that means maintaining a bad design as long as you don't accept that it's bad.

    As a totally unrelated aside, a few days ago while watching one professional match of DotA2, the game was paused for such an extended period that the casters started looking up DotA2 jokes. They found a few gems like "Yo mama so fat, Tiny can't Toss her", but one of the best was: "A DotA player and a LoL player walk into a bar. The DotA player says, 'LoL sucks!' The LoL player could not deny." XD
     
  15. PlanHex

    PlanHex Useless layabout oTO Moderator Orderite

    Nov 4, 2007
    Just gonna address a few things here.
    I think in his comparison to build order, he meant very early build order (otherwise it makes no sense). Like, whether you're going for early/later aggression/defense or whatever.
    Spells can be an indicator of overall strategy for the game and can be used as a slight counter to certain match-ups. Like, you pick Ignite if you're going for early kills or up against a champ that heals a lot, Teleport for mid-game map dominance or to counteract champs with built-in teleportation, Cleanse to specifically counter an enemy team with heavy CC, Barrier if you're up against someone with a lot of burst in your lane. That sort of thing.
    Usage is strategical (for high-level play anyway), because cooldown of summoner spells can easily be timed since they have a static cooldown that can only be slightly lowered by certain items and masteries, and every player knows that using a spell leaves them more vulnerable / less effective for the duration of the cooldown and signals this to enemies as well.

    Not that I think it's even close to perfect, mind you.
    The spells need a lot more variety to allow for more strategy and some rebalancing to make some spells less mandatory for certain roles and champs (and making Flash less mandatory for basically everyone), but your view of it as being completely without strategy is a misrepresentation. There's still strategy, player skill and team coordination involved. Stuff like fnatic's heavy use of teleport comes to mind.
    This is only true for blind pick where you can't see what the other side has chosen, which means there's no countering going on anyway.
    All the other stuff was pretty much right on the mark. I can't counter a Twisted Fate by taking Fizz when I don't own Fizz. Paying something like €10 just to be able to counter specific match-ups is insane.
     
  16. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    You're taking the context of my criticisms out to try and say they have a flaw in them. In context of the fact that you don't MAKE Flash happen based on your skills as you either have the ability unlocked or you don't, the comparison is totally invalid. In the context of the problem with counters, Champion picks allowing for doubles is a problem on all modes. If anything, it's not "only true for blink pick", but rather "blind pick is the only exception" BECAUSE you'd only pick a double by coincidence. I also NEVER said LoL is without strategy. I said that the absence of certain mechanics, or particular aspects of its mechanics, directly negate elements of strategy. Sure, there's strategy going on, but particular strategies are wholly absent as a direct result of parts of the game's design.

    By all means, point out any errors you see in any statement I make, but at least be correct about them. You were mistaken in what you said of mine needed to be addressed. =/
     
  17. PlanHex

    PlanHex Useless layabout oTO Moderator Orderite

    Nov 4, 2007
    Fair enough, I guess I misunderstood your point there.
    I'm not sure why the active abilities from spells are so different from the passive abilities from runes and masteries in this line of thinking though? When compared to items with passive stat increases and/or active abilities I mean.
    In draft pick mode, the only mode available for ranked play and the only mode where you can see what the enemy picks, you can't pick a champ that's already been chosen by the enemy team.
    As we've established, blind pick is irrelevant to countering.
    All random mode is blind too and even then I'm pretty sure you can only get doubles by rerolling a champ you didn't want. There was even some talk about fixing this on reddit I think. Also, it's random.
    That covers the 3 pick modes available in the game.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    :hatersgonnahate:
    :smug:
     
  18. The Sixth Ranger

    The Sixth Ranger It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Mar 10, 2013
    SnapSlav, I agree with you fully. The champion roster is actually a brilliant move on Riot's part.

    ''Only have bad champions? Getting frustrated because other champions annihilate you with a single sneeze? Well, buy them with Real Money then! What's that, you say? That's paying to win? Nonsense, you can unlock them all for free!''

    I imagine this could be the answer of Riot's marketing team to complaints about the champion roster. The roster also cements Riot's economy, because they prey on the frustration and boredom of the players by tempting them with new, expensive champions. The sales also help Riot's economy, as the people who binge buy during sales bump up Riot's bank account fast.

    The toxic community has destroyed this game for me. Only today I was playing with four of my friends on a two versus two map. I played with my best friend, with a character I had never played, against two expert players. We lost, of course. I then switched places with one of the expert players. My friend promised not to aggresively kill me or chastise me, but he started laughing at me and practically said 'lol u could have dodged that n00b'. It made me rage quit, and for the time being, I am NOT going back to that game.
     
  19. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    As a Free Market Capitalist, I take exception to the usage of any consumer-harming corporate strategy being called "a brilliant move". Whimsical greed only hurts you in the long-run, otherwise LoL would not be falling behind DotA2 increasingly more as time goes on, a large part of which is contributed by their market strategy. A bad idea like Riot's LoL economy should never be praised, even if said praise is ironic, sarcastic, or scathing. Their business model may rake in considerable money for them in the short-term, but that doesn't make it brilliant if the vast majority of players recognize that it's nasty and despise it, and if the natural response to the business isn't to fork over money because you feel convenienced. By contrast, Valve makes money hand over fist unlike its console competitors by periodically slashing prices on digital downloads, and that's a direct result of the instinctual reaction to their sales being "This is so awesome, I'm losing out if I DON'T buy these!" This is furthered by their non-sale prices being competitively cheap, as well. What's bad for the consumer is bad for the supplier; most just don't realize it until it's too late (i.e. Bernie Madoff).

    And PlanHex, I don't get what your usage of those GIF/emote combination imply.

    That being said... That... was fast, The Sixth Ranger. You started this LoL thread and within a week you're expressing burning hatred for the way the players act and a resulting decision to not play the game. That's kinda like making an account on this forum only to never use it after a week. XD
     
  20. The Sixth Ranger

    The Sixth Ranger It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Mar 10, 2013
    Read the last paragraph of my post, I just had a really bad game with my friends. I mainly wanted to find out what people on this site thought of LoL, and it still is this threads' purpose, but I just switched my own opinion.

    I also didn't try to praise Riot's system of earning money, but I just find it clever of them that with a system this rotten, they still have the largest amount of play time per week of a multiplayer game.

    Oh, and my name is The Sixth Ranger :D