Why Fallout 4 craps all over Fallout 3's fans and lore

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by CT Phipps, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2017
    You were the one who looks really bad when you start to quote stuff from a site that has no law on anything. Yes, video games are entertainment, but trying to dismiss valid criticism by using stuff from a site says that has no law or anything over anything just makes me not take anything you say seriously. Now i really don't want to read any of your books if you take anything in that site as guidelines or at least just seriously.

    DC looking like it does in Fallout 3 after 200 years makes no sense, whatsoever. From a franchise standpoint, it makes no sense. And the tragedy of war? Fallout 3 talking about that? Don't make me laugh, game is more preoccupied with filling the game with too much stupid shit every 5 minutes and doesn't care about that.

    Fallout 1 and 2 and also New Vegas showing civilization being rebuilt is one of the points of the series. If you don't find that very interesting, just leads me to believe you shouldn't be playing this series because it's clearly not for you. This was just cemented when you complimented Mothercrap Zeta as a "fun shooting gallery".
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
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  2. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I'm sorry I lived down to your expectations by loving a website I've participated in for ten years. Clearly I must commit suicide. (If you haven't realized I'm not taking this conversation topic remotely seriously, this is a cue--I'm just screwing around).

    I used to teach on the college level and often used TVtropes as an example of an easy way to get people into literary criticism. Again, I'm just joking around and don't think you should change your opinion on my account but I have a great respect for the site and will not be changing my opinion on it.

    Yeah, well it was very moving to me when I played it. Your loss.

    And yet somehow it's stil one of my favorite series even if I prefer the scavenger portions and ruins over the "new community." There's a reason New Reno remains my favorite Fallout location in the entire series.

    (Washington D.C's ruins are my second favorite with Vegas as the third)

    Fans like different things in the series they like. But for me, it's the ghosts of the past than NCR (which I agree with Chris Avellone should be destroyed so civilization doesn't get too civilized).
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  3. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2017
    TVtropes should be used for anything other than fucking literacy criticism. Jesus Christ, what are they teaching people these days?

    There was nothing to be "moved" with Fallout 3. The game barely touches the subject of tragedy of war. The game, again, is busy just filling itself with stupid shit to care about any of that.

    I don't care if i'm sounding like a dick, but teaching people to use TVtropes of all forsaken things to get people into literacy criticism of all things is a sure way for me not take anything you say seriously. So yeah, i'm done.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
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  4. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    What's your issue with the site now?

    The nurse entries at the Super Mutant base at Bigtown were beautiful, I think.

    Good to know.

    Sorry we couldn't come to any sort of middle ground.

    (Conversation ended by the fact one guy really likes TV tropes and the other guy hates it)
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  5. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016

    Here's my reasons why I like Fallout 3.


    There's been a lot of people questioning why I love Fallout 3 so much. It's an interesting note because I used to be the fan of Bethesda but I only kinda liked Fallout while I think of Fallout 3 (and Skyrim to an extent) as one of the best video games ever made. Certainly, they're among my all time favorites like The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings and Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines.

    I should note Fallout 3 wasn't my first Fallout. That was Fallout 2 and I suspect that influenced my opinion of the series in a way which a lot of people who started with the original game weren't. In Fallout 1, the game is played very straight even up to the point where you meet the Master. In Fallout 2, things are much more firmly tongue-in-cheek. Things like marrying Daisy Duke, becoming a porn star, Myron, the somewhat racist caged boxer, and the fact I had a martial arts fight with Lo Pan after defeating Scientology. I've always internalized the idea of Fallout as a slightly tongue in cheek series.

    This helps, partially, explain why I'm a bit more tolerant of the silliness that goes on with the Bethesda material whereas other people I think have a much firmer idea that the series should be treated as a perfectly serious post-apocalypse series rather than a tribute to them.

    For me, Fallout 3 is the quintessential example of what I want from Fallout and I think of almost all the games in the context of, "How could they be more like Fallout 3?" It's easily the most second immersive game I've ever played after Skyrim and while I think of Vampire: Bloodlines as better and New Vegas as more polished--I feel like Fallout 3 really managed to have the biggest emotional reaction from me.

    For me, the game became something magical when I first exited out of Vault 101 and I saw the blasted wasteland of what used to be Washington D.C. and it is still one of the most effective moments I think of in any video game. The sense of the vast bleakness, the austerity, and the sense of the unknown that I'd never felt before in gaming. What was in here, what would I encounter, and who would I meet? Too many open world games, essentially, don't reward exploration while Fallout 3 made every new encounter unexpected. The first time I'd ever felt that was Wasteland on my computer when I found murderous rabbits, killer robots in Vegas, and the Blood Cult.

    I think what really worked for me in this game was the sense, for once, that your heroism in the game actually mattered. The game did a job of showing that the Capital Wasteland would NOT be fine without the Lone Wanderer but was actually on the verge of going extinct. The Raiders, Super Mutants, and worse would kill off the entirety of the population eventually--but you can singlehaedly reverse that. Three Dogs praises were a bit overblown but when he says you've restored his faith in humanity at the final level--I felt it was meant.

    I think what works best about Fallout 3 is the sense of loss which is everywhere. Washington D.C. is familiar enough that the devastation will strike any American with a sense of patriotism. Things like recovering the Declaration of Independence, Lincoln's clothes, and so on have meaning even in game. But also things like the fact slavery has returned to the United States and they're even occupying the Lincoln Memorial. The Raiders may be generic but I think Paradise Falls really became a hateable set of villains just all the ambient storytelling.

    There's some truly classic moments in the game with Tranquility Lane probably being my favorite adventure in the game. The sheer WTF nature of going into unspoiled and becoming either Van Braun's puppet or his downfall was a great thing. But I also loved the introduction of the Enclave because they really use the villains well as they represent the worst of America against the people who may represent its best (in you). The BOS don't really necessarily work here and it would have been better, perhaps, to have somehting like the Minutemen but I loved John Henry Eden and the Enclave as antagonists. Liberty Prime was a hoot as well and the only way it could have been improved was if you drived it.

    The Brotherhood of Steel's portrayal in the game was controversial but they've been treated as a "good guy" faction by fandom for awhile then as the Tactics and GAME WHICH MUST NOT BE NAMED all had you as Brothers. I liked Elder Lyons and Sarah Lyons a lot as well as the fact they were FAILING at doing good. The Super Mutants had them on the ropes with the Citadel/Pentagon all but under siege. The Lone Wanderer can save them but the fact they tried to do good more or less destroyed Lyons' chapter, reforms or not.

    I think of Fallout 3 as one of those games that really got me to love the characters. Moira Brown, Three Dog, and the people of both Megaton and Rivet City were individuals that I wanted to protect as well as see succeed. I think the game made a brilliant decision making your Megaton shack such a crappy place to live but something you really felt was HOME versus the luxury of Tenpenny Tower which was beautiful but only gained by an act of mass murder.

    I even liked James.

    Did the game have flaws? Yes. The Ending before Broken Steel, the fact the Raiders didn't have a backstory, the Relic Hunter easter egg, Little Lamplight, and a few other details but this was still a game which really made me feel like the medium could say something while not diminishing gameplay.
  6. Boggins

    Boggins First time out of the vault

    Mar 1, 2018

    Where did he say that he hated TV Tropes? He basically just said that you shouldn't use it as an instruction manual for story-writing (and you shouldn't). It doesn't mean he hates it. I mean, I'll even go on there occasionally. Though, it's always for entertainment purposes rather than educational.

    When I notice something happening a lot in different stories, I'll think to myself, "Gee, this thing sure is happening a lot. It seems like it may be a trope. Maybe TV Tropes has a page for it!" Okay, that's not 100% accurate to what I actually think to myself... but you get the point.

    Basically, TV Tropes is a site for tropes; nothing more, nothing less. It's a site based off of a gimmick. It's still a very entertaining site, mind you, but gimmicky nonetheless. If you like it, fair enough. Using it to educate, though... that's different. Us telling you this is rather useless, since you're done teaching. I'm basically telling a death row inmate that murder is wrong. Whatever the case, the point still stands.

    I'm going to be honest; you made a mistake with this thread. You're entitled to any opinion you have, of course. It's just that you're proclaiming your love for Fallout 3 on NMA, of all places. This is a site where 99% of the userbase hates Fallout 3&4. Since you've been here since 2016, you should already be aware of this... wait, I've barely been here for a few months. Why the hell am I telling you this? Bah, that doesn't matter... my point is this:

    this thread was doomed the start

    Edit: I have an important question that will determine something important: What do you think of Bioshock: Infinite?
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  7. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I know but where else am I going to talk about Fallout?

    And yes, I know the people hate it here but Bethesda shut down their old forums because...apparently....people discussed too much lore and stuff unrelated to gameplay issues.

    So, it was here or nothing and I'm not afraid of a good argument.

    Maybe I'll change my mind, maybe I'll change a mind.

    Re: TV tropes

    I think it's a good thing to exist as it helps students of writing get a sense of the components that make up their work and how they relate. You can understand the difference between cliches and tropes as well as the organic flow of old ideas into new situations. It's not a scholarly site, just an expression of fandom but gives a sense of people "I know how a cake exists, how about cake ingrediants?"

    I also find it good shorthand for reasons like why Y and X exist in a story.

    Just me, though.
  8. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Dec 6, 2016
    shocked that someone really cares about Sarah Lyon.

    Like.....it's just Sarah Lyons, ffs. can hardly be considered a character.
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  9. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016

    How do you figure?
  10. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    I think there's a difference between something that is implausible (radscorpions) and something that is illogical or inconsistent to the lore.

    TV Tropes isn't an authority. I don't think anyone is claiming that it is. However, that doesn't mean that its content is wrong. Tropes are pattterns. Patterns can be observed. A bunch of people who observed these patterns put them online in the form of TV Tropes. Gurren Lagan follows the rule of cool from start to finish. It's also one the best animes ever made. The rule of cool can certainly go wrong. If a hard sci-fi has one glaring element that exists only because it's cool, obviously that would moronic. No one is saying that anything cool is okay. Tropes are being referenced because it's easier to do that then to break into some kind of lecture on critiquing art, than it is to just use a phrase that is practically self explanatory.
  11. Daniel The NCR Veteran

    Daniel The NCR Veteran I'm NCR and Proud.

    Apr 9, 2018
    Hahaha I agree so much. She's the best thing about doing the Enclave ending for Broken Steel. She can be killed and I liked to shoot her goddamn brains out.
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  12. JDogindy

    JDogindy Tribal with a Baked Brain

    Feb 20, 2015
    Yeah, let's be realistic; Moria, the Tunnel Snakes, Tenpenny Tower, and Lyons Pride are arguably the most liked aspects if you poll many people about 3. Sierra was a "Uh?" moment than anything else, especially when meeting the creator of Nuka Cola would have been more... I dunno, grandiose? Shit; "Open Season" would have been more fun if you were wresting control back to the head in a jar instead of doing something that morally feels good, but does bupkus in the long term.

    My issue was how they dumbed down their own story about the Commonwealth. Like, the C.I.T. created the Institute, but there's little in history for them until Father takes control & synths, for example. Who led before him? Who invented the first Synth?

    I know circling back to New Vegas seems inappropriate, but at least there most of the components fit and there were ramifications for everyone, not just Diamond City and your settlements as in 4. And it's partly due to ignorance.
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  13. Jassassino

    Jassassino First time out of the vault

    May 12, 2018
    The worst point of follow up which Fallout 4 enacts is The Institute and Commonwealth to be honest. The synth situation is awful, Fallout 3's hints and sidenotes in quests, Dr. Zimmerman's comments and stuff you learnt about the railroad seemed to be much more of a grand thing on a larger scale. The idea seemed to insist upon a confusion of identity in general and a loss of the self on a scale which infiltrated a lot of civilisation, yet they seemed to forget about that other than some shoddy sidequest in Diamond City. The commonwealth was also made out to be a technological marvel, and whilst the Institute was, the Commonwealth was just Capital Wasteland 2.0. There's nothing unique about that game, even the final stage of the main quest is just stomping with Liberty Prime. Honestly they may as well have ported 3 over to current gen consoles and given it a settlement building DLC.
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  14. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Dec 6, 2016
    I have no patience whatsoever to dig deep into the lore of Fallout 3 and 4, but they were almost exterminated by the Institute, who had a spy who point their location. Has this happened between Fallout 3 and 4? I do not know, but if that's the case then it makes sense for them to be a small organization.
  15. Jassassino

    Jassassino First time out of the vault

    May 12, 2018
    I must confess, I have no desire to retread the lore of either game and I'm going largely by the information I gathered from past play-throughs so I think you may be correct. Though I expected the railroad to be more interconnected with multiple terrorists cells so to speak. As a team of less than 10 it's hard to believe they can fight for liberation like they do without any connections to the wider wasteland, especially considering they somehow muster the resources to escort various replicants as far as Washington to insure their safety.
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  16. Sn1p3r187

    Sn1p3r187 Carolinian Shaolin Monk

    Apr 7, 2014
    You know, it's strange you made this thread. I've been thinking about this topic all week at work. Even I was curious as to why. But then again Bethesda is total shit, so I can see why they'd do it to begin with.
  17. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    I definitely expected something above ground, with the heart of the Commonwealth being this high tech core or outlaying community. While the rest of a major city would be fairly standard, and probably quite desolate (though hopefully with plantlife growing over the buildings). I thought I'd find communities where synth slaves are the (horrifying) way of life, not unlike bondage slavery in American history. I thought maybe it would be treated as voluntary, because the Institute could just program them to be unflinchingly obedient, but that there would be heartbreaking stories of slaves gaining self awareness of their situation. Not simply having two stripes of synths, their stories basically absent or completed behind the scenes, i.e synths who are gun ho freedom, and ones that are servile (with only two outliers from that). I thought I'd be playing detective, as with The Repilicated Man quest, when it came to escaped synths.

    I don't even know how to describe what Fo4 provided other than to say it's shallow and full of holes. Like a single slice of swiss cheese...that got stale, really, really quickly.
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  18. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Doctor Zimmer said the Commonwealth was a radioactive Hellhole but the Institute was beautiful.
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  19. LoL NooBs

    LoL NooBs First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2018
    It's not the game that shits on you, it's the company. I used to like Bethesda too. As far back as Morrowind, I remember reading an offline guide/walkthru (useful too) where the author just wouldn't stop bashing them on the side for some reason, and I had no idea why. When Fallout 3 came out, I knew.

    People tell me I have high standards. This does bother me; but what bothers me more is, what if these "high standards" of mine now are lower than what people's standards once were, and how that came to be. In retrospect, I often wonder how much better TES1 and TES2 were in comparison to Morrowind. How furious that guy must have been at gamers accepting without a second thought whatever new BS Beth pushed on us, and there being nothing he could do to wake us up.

    As I am furious now. And so are you. Welcome.

    The situation with TFA and TLJ is similar. One movie is objectively inferior to the other, but that doesn't mean either is objectively even above average. It's all about the people's standards. The lower they get, the more BS corporations can push on us.

    The day you truly understand why F3 is an insult to F1 and F2 fans is the day you will know the answer to your own question.
  20. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Fallout 3 remains my all time favorite fallout game and is objectively superior in themes, storytelling, and presentation.

    I can explain why too