Fallout 2 Lore is garbage too...

R.Graves

R.Graves

Confirmed Retard
We bitch and moan about fallout 3 & 4's shitty lore a lot here. Let's talk about fallout 2's lore. I find a lot of lore to be objectionable.
-@Tagaziel pointed out coffin Willie. Who survived being buried alive.
-Then there is the rat god. Too out there to go unexplained imo.
-Hakunin and sulik's psychic abilities. Lessens the significance of the masters psykers.
-seymour (ref to little shop of horrors?)
-intelligent radscorp

That's all I got off the top of my head.
I'd love to hear NMA's full list of objectionable lore in fo2.
Links would be appreciated.
 
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Actually wasn't the rat god just a molerat that got infused with FEV and grew intelligent? Just like the intelligent deathclaws. I don't have a problem with it because it's canon thanks to the intelligent deathclaws that, if done a certain way, FEV CAN make you more intelligent. I mean, look at the Master, he's probably one of the most intelligent creatures out of all the games, and all because of FEV. I could be wrong about this of course, I haven't played Fallout 2 in a long time, but the rat god is completely plausible to me thanks to beings such as the Master and intelligent deathclaws.

I also personally don't have an issue with the psychic powers or the ghost. Things like this may or may not actually exist in real life, we'll never know for sure, but I don't mind the game dabbling in it. A lot of people irl believe in both psychic abilities and ghosts, so the fact they're in the game doesn't bother me that much because it's something millions of people believe in outside of the game.
 
Guys.. for future posts please list specific bits of lore. Not factions. Characters. Ill fix my post.
 
Question, why exactly is it bullshit that Coffin Willie survived? I mean, how long ago was he buried exactly? He could've been buried just a few hours ago before you get to Golgotha (as to returning to Golgotha a week after you've first been there and he not being dead? I dunno, oversight?) and since he's a ghoul his heart-rate could be slower or maybe he doesn't need as much oxygen or fuck man, maybe the sadistic fucks who buried him alive left some kind of small tube leading down so that he wouldn't die out of lack of air but rather out of lack of food.

I mean, we don't really get any details at all about it as far as I can remember. Simply that he was buried at some point. When was that point exactly?

As to why I think that it is bullshit that there are "talking" molerats? IIRC they don't talk. They use telepathy. Meaning Psyker. Psyker Molerats. Sounds pretty shitty to me.
 
Mr Fish said:
Question, why exactly is it bullshit that Coffin Willie survived? I mean, how long ago was he buried exactly? He could've been buried just a few hours ago before you get to Golgotha (as to returning to Golgotha a week after you've first been there and he not being dead? I dunno, oversight?) and since he's a ghoul his heart-rate could be slower or maybe he doesn't need as much oxygen or fuck man, maybe the sadistic fucks who buried him alive left some kind of small tube leading down so that he wouldn't die out of lack of air but rather out of lack of food.

I mean, we don't really get any details at all about it as far as I can remember. Simply that he was buried at some point. When was that point exactly?

As to why I think that it is bullshit that there are "talking" molerats? IIRC they don't talk. They use telepathy. Meaning Psyker. Psyker Molerats. Sounds pretty shitty to me.
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A lot of what you're doing with coffin Willie feels like handwaving imo. It's a lot of "for all we know" and i hate that defense but tgats just me....
 
Just clarify, I've yet to really play F2, but from what I can gather, the reason why people overlook the "stupid" parts of the lore is because the game still gave us more good stuff.
Think of it like this;
The Fallout series is a TV show, F2 is Season 2.
If there are 24 episodes, at least 18 of them would be very good.
The rest may be meh at best, forgettable at worst.
But there's still more good than bad.

Now if Fallout 4 was season 5 (or 4, depending on your viewpoint) and it also had 24 episodes, yet most episodes consisted of shit that didn't make sense or were just down right lore breaking. You're going to focus on the bad a lot more, as there's a lot more of it and it's rather noticeable.
(Not the best comparison I know, but I hope you see my point)

I've read up on what F2 gave us, there's a lot of weird shit in it, but they at least explain it. And if it isn't, you're not meant to take it seriously.
I've said before, I wouldn't have a problem with the Kid in the Fridge quest, if they acknowledged that it was stupid and just there for laughs. Instead they try to make a huge thing out of it and make it a special reunion.
(Personally, I like to think the Sole Survivor is deluded from leaving the Vault and just handed the parents a dead kid).
 
Millim said:
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I can see what you're saying and normally is agree But can we not handwave bad lore because the good outweighs the bad? Isn't that goal for all games? I'm not sure we should give fo2 a pass just got meeting a basic requirment (one of many) to be a good sequel.
 
When the fuck is it said that he has been in that damn coffin for what? A week? A couple of days? You do realize you can survive for a while being buried alive right? Panic sets in and you breathe faster as your blood flows faster and you run out of oxygen. So, he's alive. Okay, well logically if he's still alive then he was recently buried. Since he didn't run out of air he was probably knocked out so that they could stuff him in there without him squirming too much, slowing his heartbeat as he wouldn't be panicked. Chances are that they also didn't dig too deep a grave as they decided to bury him alive on a whim.

I don't see it as handwaving at all. All we know is that he got buried, we don't know when. If he's still alive then there are a number of factors that could ensure his survival. It's simple logic. He may be the dumbest fucker ever alive but his Luck stat must be damn high.
 
R.Graves said:
I can see what you're saying and normally is agree But can we not handwave bad lore because the good outweighs the bad? Isn't that goal for all games? I'm not sure we should give fo2 a pass just got meeting a basic requirment (one of many) to be a good sequel.
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It's something that sometimes needs to be done.
With a game as big as Fallout 2, we're going to get some bad lore in parts, it's just the nature of things.
Yes, we need to call out when a game we like does this, we can't just go in kissing the game's ass or we will end up like MrMattyPlays.

But I do feel it's not a major concern.
Again, there are aspects I didn't like in F1 and New Vegas, for one, how the hell did the Master crawl from one side of the State to the other without anyone noticing? (I'm not sure if this was explained or not...)
We should point out when a game does do something stupid, but it was more to answer your initial question (as in why we pick on F3&4 so much when F2 is just as guilty).
 
@Mr Fish I am not questioning you. I just hate that old "for all we know" defense. Is there dialogue with wills wherin you can ask him about what happened?
 
Not that I can think of, he's kinda miffed and walks away.

The "for all we know" defense is fine depending on the event that is unfolding.
For example, there's a cave full of radscorpions. There's a recently deceased woman in there.
For all we know.... She got stabbed by a radscorpion.

That's a weak defense? How? What else do you think happened? Frank Horrigan played kickball with her as the ball? Wannamingo's gave her a hug full of so much love that her heart couldn't bear it and broke? That she fingered herself with razors glued to her fingers?

No, chances are that she died from a radscorpion sting.

Coffin Willie is buried, we get no information on 'when' he was buried, but if you dig him up he's still alive.
Logically, Ms Dead Woman In A Cave Full Of Radscorpions was probably stung by a radscorpion and Coffin Willie was probably buried recently and knocked out since he's still alive.

Simple logic. Not everything needs to be handfed to the player.
But most importantly, you know why there isn't a huge questline that details the struggles of Mr Buried Alive and gives us amazing insight into his very soul and all of his major life decisions that led him to that day going especially deep into his very character when he details what he perceived as being the last moments of his life were?
It's because it was a joke.
Because it is Fallout 2.
It's an event that is merely meant to be a simple joke that can easily be explained through the simplest of logic. It is not a dumb joke like a plant talking because "lol, reference!" No it is a joke that can easily be explained through simple logic. You can survive being buried alive. Panic increases blood-flow which makes you breathe heavier which makes the air run out faster. He's alive so obviously he was buried (very) recently and he was most likely knocked out and just recently came to.

I got a big one that I honestly don't think I've personally ever seen anyone bring up.
San Fransisco.
No no no, not the hubologists and not The Shi and not their technology or anything like that.
Fuck all of that.
What I wanna bring up is how on the map it is extremely close to Mariposa.
Remember the vast area of the map in Fallout 1 that was hounded by super mutant patrols?
How the fuck did San Fransisco survive that? Wouldn't they have been the first target of Unity?
And you'd think that a huge army of big ass super mutants would be something that the people of San Fransisco remembered and would talk about constantly but while I admittedly never cared for exploring San Fransisco all that much I don't remember many people there mentioning the super mutants spreading like locusts from Mariposa.
 
Mr Fish said:
Not that I can think of, he's kinda miffed and walks away.

The "for all we know" defense is fine depending on the event that is unfolding.
For example, there's a cave full of radscorpions. There's a recently deceased woman in there.
For all we know.... She got stabbed by a radscorpion.


No, chances are that she died from a radscorpion sting.
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No dip son. That's a situation where the event prior are heavily implied or easily inferrable.
And Im not asking to be handfes an explanation. But the fact is the dude's alive for questioning and we can't question him on what happened or how it happened or even why. And I'm my opinion that is bullshit. I should be able to ask this man dude wtf happened. And I am denied even a flimsy explanation. That doesn't sit right with me.
 
-San Fransisco and New Reno as a whole are way too over the top.

-The ghost in the Den.

-The Temple of Trials makes no sense, and I'm not a big fan of Arroyo being a tribal village either.
 
R.Graves said:
No dip son. That's a situation where the event prior are heavily implied or easily inferrable.
And Im not asking to be handfes an explanation. But the fact is the dude's alive for questioning and we can't question him on what happened or how it happened or even why. And I'm my opinion that is bullshit. I should be able to ask this man dude wtf happened. And I am denied even a flimsy explanation. That doesn't sit right with me.
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Then you're expecting far too much from an event that was designed to be a humorous joke.
Doesn't matter if it doesn't sit right with you how the event was designed.
The question is if it is a piece of bullshit lore. And it isn't.

We could argue about how well designed it is and then I'd agree with you that we should be able to talk to the guy and maybe help him get retribution even but that ain't the purpose of the thread. The purpose of the thread is calling out bullshit Fallout 2 lore. I see nothing that is bullshit about Coffin Willie. Quite frankly, all I see is excessive nitpicking.

I think that ultimately the difference here is that I'm fine with it being designed rather scant when it was meant to simply be a quick one off joke and you're not and would've wanted it to be more fleshed out. I think you're taking it too seriously. It's like the "Fuck You" door in FO3, I personally don't see how it makes any sense for the doorway to have been cemented off so neatly but I don't really care. It's meant to be a joke. I don't know if the raiders did it or someone else post-war or if it was even done pre-war but someone at some point decided to make that satellite array station even more tedious to walk around in and sealed off the exit perfectly with cement. I'd like an explanation but at the same time I'm fine with not being given one because, well, it's a joke. It shouldn't be taken too seriously. It'll only ruin it.
 
Seriously? The ghoul in the new reno graveyard may be a bit silly but is just a joke. Compared it with the kid in the fridge quest which is much more idiotic yet we´re supposed to take it has something serious.
Where´s did this story about Sulik being a psyker came from? I tought it was just some shamanistic stuff.
 
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