Static Checks vs Dice Rolls

Atomic Postman

Vault Archives Overseer
An argument I'm sure that has been hashed out agelessly on many forums including this one, but with Baldur's Gate 3 releasing I've seen it hit the mainstream on Twitter and the like once more. So, why not hash it out again.

Should Skill/SPECIAL checks operate on a Static basis ala New Vegas? Or take a more old school approach and emulate PnPs with percentile rolls (1d100 in the case of skills, 1d10 in the case of SPECIAL)?

As someone who is quite involved in tabletop roleplaying I lean on the side of dice-rolls in an idealist fashion, but in a practical one I can't find any good justification for it. To my mind it is entirely just fodder for save/reloading behaviour. Unless you force an "Ironman" mode on the game (Which, let's be honest is never going to be mandatory) it is just an objectively inferior method of Skill checking.

However, I do see the argument that there should be a chance of failure no matter what and you want to avoid the Vegas problem of just mindlessly dumping Speech or Barter. So I guess I'm a bit of a fence-sitter on this one.
 
Should Skill/SPECIAL checks operate on a Static basis ala New Vegas? Or take a more old school approach and emulate PnPs with percentile rolls?
Definitely dice rolls, it creates situations where the player has to rely on chance and that can create interesting scenarios for a play-through. The save-scumming argument is entirely on the player, whether they will stick with their initial roll or just reload is irrelevant to how the game should be designed. The closer to pnp an rpg can get, the better in my opinion.

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When you have games that go off stats and you can plan your characters builds out, you need to throw some chance-based mechanics to keep it exciting and the players on their toes.
 
An ideal solution perhaps would be some way of timestamping the outcome of a roll, so once made it will always come to the same result on that particular character/profile. I have no idea if that is technically viable though. You'd also have to pre-warn people that was the case so as not to stick would-be save-scummers in an infinite loop of frustration.
 
Dialogue should be static because in most other situations there is (or should be) multiple ways to solve a thing and you can always return to the thing. Dialogue kinda springs it on you out of nowhere that now there's a skill check you gotta meet and while you can pick the lock another time you can't tell the dude you're telling to lower his weapon "hey, let me ask you that again". Everything else that is "repeatable" should be dicerolled since if you fail you can always try again until you crit fail.
 
As someone who is quite involved in tabletop roleplaying I lean on the side of dice-rolls in an idealist fashion...
I of course prefer dice, but I am curious as to your reasons for it; is it tradition, nostalgia, or another to purpose that you prefer dice over thresholds?
 
I of course prefer dice, but I am curious as to your reasons for it; is it tradition, nostalgia, or another to purpose that you prefer dice over thresholds?


It's not nostalgia as I only got into tabletop in 2018. I would say in part tradition as I greatly respect at how closely the original Fallouts tried to stick to tabletop rules. But primarily for the same reason it isn't thresholds in tabletop itself, the potential risk and the opportunity for failure makes the success feel a lot better and makes each of these decisions more tense.

As a rule I also think at their core video game RPGs should seek to emulate the experience of being in a tabletop campaign to the best of their ability.
 
For speech checks, definitely static checks since to me it makes no sense to clearly know what you are talking about but still somehow fail.

The problem with static checks in New Vegas is that most of the time they are win buttons. In fact, i doubt people read some of the checks they are clicking and just press them, assuming it's automatically a good thing. It's why i like that you can hurt Dean Domino's ego by passing a Barter check because it play into his character.

If New Vegas had more of these and taught the player that passing a check isn't always a good thing, it would have been great.
 
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For speech checks, definitely static checks since to me it makes no sense to clearly know what you are talking about but still somehow fail.
I disagree partially, with the way new vegas changes speech checks depending on if you're qualified, sure that makes sense. But generally while what you're saying could be the right thing I interpret dice rolls as being if you deliver it in the right way and come off as convincing enough to the person. So weaker checks having a requirement of '5' and stronger checks having a requirement of '18' determine your characters delivery vs. the targets strength on the issue.
 
For speech checks, definitely static checks since to me it makes no sense to clearly know what you are talking about but still somehow fail.
I'd actually argue that's less of a justification than a technical Skill check. Someone with 75% in Science is going to be a lot more firm in their ability to crack a poorly encrypted terminal than someone attempting to smooth talk since human conversation isn't an exact science. Sure, you can be good at it which is what the check represents but it isn't something you can technically master in the same way a locksmith could a lock. Whether it's incorrect vocal delivery, wrong timing, or just some unknown factor in the person's character/mind.


The problem with static checks in New Vegas is that most of the time they are win buttons. In fact, i doubt people read some of the checks they are clicking and just press them, assuming it's automatically a good thing.

Yeah this is definitely a problem, and it mutated into the really, really poor way skill checks were handled in the Outer Worlds where they were effectively dopamine buttons with the intention of never missing out on a single one. I think there's multiple solutions to this problem:

  1. Several dialogue options to deal with the same topic, with the same skill requirement but with different outcomes. So it's not just "Normal Responses + Best Possible Response", you have to actually think about what kind of outcome you are gaming for. A classic Fallout example might be say negotiating the best way to get Tandi from out of the claws of the Khans, there's no obvious choice there, just several different options of which you choose the best outcome based on your character
  2. "Trick" options that fuck you over if you just mindlessly click without thinking about what it is you're saying to the type of person you're talking to
  3. Removal of indicators for Speech checks, though I could see this going wrong

I still think the savescum factor is a big enough weight to sway me to the static side primarily because I think the argument of "It's not a flaw if you just choose not to do it" feels very, very shaky. If you can just exploit the game in such an obvious way, it is a flaw in the design.
 
I like the Tabletop Fallout ideas you've managed to put up. Here's a small suggestion from me: If you ever make a list of weapons, make a midgame Unarmed weapon. That was always the drawback of an unarmed build
 
I like the Tabletop Fallout ideas you've managed to put up. Here's a small suggestion from me: If you ever make a list of weapons, make a midgame Unarmed weapon. That was always the drawback of an unarmed build

I actually do have a weapons list in my Fallout PnP, Moribund World. It should be listed under the sections index at the front. It's one of the last parts of the document.

I also do have midgame unarmed weapons.
 

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I think a combination of the two works - some with hard checks, others that are purely dice roll, some dice rolls that require a threshold to even engage with, some where both CHA and Speech are taken into account, some with just Speech, some just CHA, and some in combination with other skills, though this last category would probably be the rarest.
 
I think a combination of the two works - some with hard checks, others that are purely dice roll, some dice rolls that require a threshold to even engage with, some where both CHA and Speech are taken into account, some with just Speech, some just CHA, and some in combination with other skills, though this last category would probably be the rarest.
I believe that Planescape did this; IIRC, there were encounter checks that required minimum stat values to succeed. Fallout 2 had this in the encounter where the PC chooses the brain for Skynet. IIRC the quality of mind the PC chooses is based on the level of their Science skill.

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Here is how I see it:

PnP-RPGs and cRPGs both need to account for the very complex circumstance that can arise in its presented situations. This needs to be done impartially. The mechanical task of an RPG is actually to say 'No' in the "Let's Pretend" adventure whenever the answer should be No instead of Yes. So... can the PC lift the log?...No. Did the PC's attempt to defend themselves work as hoped?...No. Can they read the foreign writing?...No. The answer won't always be No, of course. Did the coin toss land Heads up?...Yes. Is the safe locked?... No—which is a kind of a Yes.

A computer could be made to track —everything—. An NPC could forget to lock their safe when they leave the house, and so it would be unlocked when the player chanced to pull on the latch.

An NPC could rob other NPCs, and suppose they jammed a lock during the break in—the lock would be jammed when the player eventually tried to pick it—making it impossible. Of course the player doesn't know this happened; how could they?

This is A LOT of stored variables across a gameworld; most of it never used. A human Dungeonmaster could not keep these kind of updated notes; a computer could, but it would be a lot of work to create, and be a lot of complexity to debug. So back to the point... RPGs must simulate impartial chance & circumstance, and an easier way to do that is through abstraction. Dice can be used as an impartial indication of chance & circumstance; whatever the roll is, it can virtually represent every—theoretical— thing related to the difficulty (or lack of it) in the situation at hand.​

At it's simplest, the 50/50 chance of a yes or no answer. Can they climb it? Can they hear anything? Is it infected? Is this bauble worthless? Do I remember my French language training enough to puzzle out this note? The dice roll indicates an impartial sum of all of the [hypothetical] circumstances, to arrive at an impartial answer. Failure could mean any possible reason for them not to succeed; slipping on the climb, wax in their ear, the toilet was used by a most virulent previous occupant' the bauble is platinum—so "it's not real gold", says the pawn broker.

In the case of skill checks it is not always a 50/50 chance, it's usually whatever the PC's skill level happens to be at the time. It works. The novice might succeed 20% of the time, while the expert might average 80% success; and they can both fail—or sometimes succeed by fluke.

An absolute expert (highest level) thief character can still drop the lock pick; failing the 99% skill check.

The common question is, "But if I can just roll again and again until success... then why bother with dice?". The answer is Time. The value of skill is the ability to do it accurately on demand. Anyone can know any fact if given unlimited time to learn about it, but the expert knows that fact in the very moment that it's needed. Anyone can pick a lock with unlimited time, but only an expert can enter a locked police box before the officer walks around it; back to the door.
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An issue that is sometimes brought up against success by fluke, is that the PC is simply not skilled enough to succeed in certain situations. Consider a security door that cannot be bashed, and has a specialized lock, designed to be almost unpickable. A novice would never succeed by chance alone, and an expert would be hard pressed to manage it. Consider also, an NPC who not only doesn't like the PC, but who is in a foul mood to begin with. It would take a silver tongued car salesman to convince them of anything. In both cases would be uncommonly difficult.

This is where skill penalties come in; subtracting a penalty from the PC's skill level to reflect exceptional difficulty. The penalty can potentially make the chance of success fall below zero, so the novice might have no chance at all, and at a minimum the expert would need to be skilled enough to have even a chance at success. (It's a kind of threshold itself, but one without assured success.)
 
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I feel like it could be a combination of both. Maybe something like, you need x% of speech for this check and your CHA x10 is the percentage you'll pass said check, or something like that.
 
Well... I mention it above; an especially difficult skill check could come at a penalty... for example a -30%. This is not unlike a D&D savings throw with a -2. In effect, the PC must at least have a 31% in the skill to have any chance at all.
 
Yeah that's how we ran things in my own Fallout PnP campaign. The idea was that doing something like cracking an ICBM launch sequence is not going to be as an exact a chance for someone with 100% Science as hacking a office terminal, and for speech checks things like their party attitude with an NPC prior to a check or faction reputation (or in some cases, bigotry against a PC being a Ghoul or Super Mutant) would also incur negative modifiers.

A silver tongued diplomat with 100% in the skill is not going to have the same sure chance of talking down a devout cultist as it would be convincing a town guard to let them in past curfew, but they're sure as hell going to have the best chance possible even with the modifier applied.

We did experiment with how best to apply that modifier though, whether as a flat negative (so someone with 40% in Speech is never going to pass a -75% modifier) or in proportion to the skill (So someone with 40% in Speech recieving a -75% modifier would have a reduction to 10%, 25% of their overall skill).

The debate was that it was fairer to allow a chance regardless of how slim, and that it was better for the penalty to be proportional so as not to render skills situationally blocked or useless, however the counter argument was that doing it proportionally in some cases meant the difference was relatively small which came off as wasting of point investment. As in the proportional example above, the person with 100% Speech is only going to have a 15% better chance at the -75% check than the person with 40%, which for some players didn't ring true.

As a minor compromise we went with the flat reduction, but allowed Critical Chance to ignore the reduction. But I never felt we had a solidly satisfactory decision on it

For SPECIAL checks which operated on 1d10 roll under, it was a matter of flat reduction of -1 with a typical maximum of -4.
 
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I prefer dice rolls.

Others already mentioned some benefits of dice rolls, but another one is that with using the dice, every point a character has in a skill counts, while with static, each point is only used to reach the next "threshold" of skill checks. Unless a static value RPG system uses skill checks with all numbers (using all the numbers between 0 and 9, like a skill check of 22, 39, 7, etc.) which becomes cumbersome and harder to be quickly calculated in player's heads, it's simpler and easier to just use 0 and 5's (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, etc.).

This then makes each skill point a player adds to a skill quite boring, why having 31 is better than 30 if the skill checks are a static 30 or 35? While in dice rolls, 1 point can make the difference between success and failure.
 
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This then makes each skill point a player adds to a skill quite boring, why having 31 is better than 30 if the skill checks are a static 30 or 35? While in dice rolls, 1 point can make the difference between success and failure.

This was for sure a New Vegas issue. Any points put into a skill between a 0 and a 5 were basically filler until you could reach the next checkpoint of either.
 
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