“Bethesda Softworks Can Suck It”

[Madbringer]

If you wonder what i mean with Blizzard fucking with their own franchises: Play Warcraft 3 intensively, then play World of Warcraft intensively. WoW has nothing to do with Warcraft except for some little things. Imo the heroes of Warcraft 3 should be the classes of WoW, and the whole undead race of WoW has nothing to do at all with Warcraft. They just shitted at Warcraft 3 and made something loosely connected to it (aside from graphics i mean) which just works as an MMORPG. But I got no real problem with it because you can't take Wc3 as seriously as you can take Fallout.

What Morbus'n'Maka said + WoW doesn't conflict with the general Warcraft lore - it builds on it. What you wrote makes no sense, really.

 

[Corith]

Considering the things I saw while I was at blizzard, I'm surprised they can accomplish anything.

Details?

Well, where to start . . .
Ok, first off the place is run like a military encampment. Those on the bottom most rung - temps - are treated as vermin, and told they are such. No bones about it, you are told you little more than vermin sucking on the greatness of Blizzard. While those on the top, designers are treated as omnipotent gods utterly incapable of mistakes or flaw.

Advancement/performance reviews are dominated by how much "blizzard spirit" you have, not your ability or lack of. Those who to do not profess extreme party loyalty . . .opsie, I mean those who do not drip Blizzard Spirit are let go.

Departments are locked and employees forbidden to talk to those outside their departments even to the detriment of development flow.

These are minor though compared to the biggie . . .
The job you do . . .the job you are hired for, is NOT related to your skills in anyway whatsoever. Granted you may learn something in your position, but how you got that job is based 100% on WHO you know where its a new hire or changing positions once hired. There is no advancement based on skill.

For instance, I saw several programming jobs filled by high school students who could barely read, much less even program. They openly admitted they never, ever, programmed. They got the job because somebody said they could. I saw accountant positions filled by English majors; QA being done by accountants; IT attempting to be handled by HR trained personal; HR done by culinary arts specialists. All mismatched because they knew somebody in some department who said they could have that job. While I was there I could not find a single person who got their job without going through somebody and nearly all had no prior experience with the job they were assigned. I assure you these were not isolated incidents but were wide spread issues.

Instead of working, employee spend the bulk their time working on interpersonal relationships so they can advance up the corporate ladder. Who you know and who knows you is the rule of the day, not what you know or even what you can do. I know that is often true in most corporate enviroments, but at Blizzard it is taken to the extreme. It is like a Monty Pyton skit about corporate advancment.

I know the question everybody is about to ask. It is asked every time I mention this corporate nightmare. How can they even function, How can they produce something as massive and complex as Wow? Well, if it wasn't for the China office and a few select individuals fortunate enough to know the person who is responsible for the job they actually have skills for, they wouldn't. These unique and special individuals plus the China office are responsible for nearly all that you see, not the offices in Irvine.

And, before you ask, I was like any number of temps, brought in to their QA department. But, after hearing and seeing how things are managed, the poor treatment by those above on those below, the near military dictatorship, I did not bother to accept becoming perm.

 

[goffy59]

Blizzard? Bethsoft?

Bethsoft buy a foreign license and fuck with it a little.

Blizzard fuck with their own franchises, although not as much as Bethesda does with the Fallout franchise. But think of this: At Blizzard there are at least the original makes of the older games and still they somehow fuck their franchises. I couldn't say what's worse really; fucking with a foreign license or with your own. It's both not great :/ but Bethesda at least has the excuse that they got none of the original makers of those games in their time and therefore can't reproduce it fully...

If you wonder what i mean with Blizzard fucking with their own franchises: Play Warcraft 3 intensively, then play World of Warcraft intensively. WoW has nothing to do with Warcraft except for some little things. Imo the heroes of Warcraft 3 should be the classes of WoW, and the whole undead race of WoW has nothing to do at all with Warcraft. They just shitted at Warcraft 3 and made something loosely connected to it (aside from graphics i mean) which just works as an MMORPG. But I got no real problem with it because you can't take Wc3 as seriously as you can take Fallout. Warcraft is just about simple fun, no deepness. What really annoys me is what they are doing to Diablo now. The graphics really disappointed me, the whole look is as generic as for example Titan Quest's graphics. And that although Diablo had a very "special" graphic style with all it's darkness, the destroyed and devastated world, the hopelessness for example the monastry in Act 1 with all the corpses and torture scenes around, just well done. The gameplay trailer of Diablo 3 was kinda more like just fun and hack n slay and comic style,.. not much devastation and darkness, the whole graphici s more WoW style than Diablo 3.

Even the colorful jungle in Act 3 in Diablo had its darkness or the Act 5 ice level for example was still kinda dark, imo.

The gameplay trailer just showed a hack n slay game without the great atmosphere and an average graphics style without the details and the devastation its predecessors featured. it doesn't even have fitting music tracks

WOW has nothing to do with Warcraft? Have you played Warcraft1/2+EXP/3+EXP? The whole idea of WOW is an MMO that talks more in detail about the "world of warcraft" in a role playing manner. Most of the things you will find on WOWWIKI.com is actual game lore from the RTS games. Either you miss the point of WOW or you haven't played Warcraft. They're are still making Warcraft and its still a great game. Just because they wanted to branch off and make another game in the same world, it doesn't mean they fucked their own franchise. Full of shit IMO. Warcraft was full of deepness, as is WOW. But you haven't really played either; at least thats how you're post sounds. After all, Blizzard makes some of the greatest cinamatic/intro video in the entire gaming industry. Maybe I missed you're point but I feel I know Blizzard games because I paid for all 3 major titles as well as all the EXP. If you do your homework, maybe you can see how detailed the game lore is. Have you heard of WarCraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans? Or Warcraft RPG?

Considering the things I saw while I was at blizzard, I'm surprised they can accomplish anything.

Details?

Well, where to start . . .
Ok, first off the place is run like a military encampment. Those on the bottom most rung - temps - are treated as vermin, and told they are such. No bones about it, you are told you little more than vermin sucking on the greatness of Blizzard. While those on the top, designers are treated as omnipotent gods utterly incapable of mistakes or flaw.

Advancement/performance reviews are dominated by how much "blizzard spirit" you have, not your ability or lack of. Those who to do not profess extreme party loyalty . . .opsie, I mean those who do not drip Blizzard Spirit are let go.

Departments are locked and employees forbidden to talk to those outside their departments even to the detriment of development flow.

These are minor though compared to the biggie . . .
The job you do . . .the job you are hired for, is NOT related to your skills in anyway whatsoever. Granted you may learn something in your position, but how you got that job is based 100% on WHO you know where its a new hire or changing positions once hired. There is no advancement based on skill.

For instance, I saw several programming jobs filled by high school students who could barely read, much less even program. They openly admitted they never, ever, programmed. They got the job because somebody said they could. I saw accountant positions filled by English majors; QA being done by accountants; IT attempting to be handled by HR trained personal; HR done by culinary arts specialists. All mismatched because they knew somebody in some department who said they could have that job. While I was there I could not find a single person who got their job without going through somebody and nearly all had no prior experience with the job they were assigned. I assure you these were not isolated incidents but were wide spread issues.

Instead of working, employee spend the bulk their time working on interpersonal relationships so they can advance up the corporate ladder. Who you know and who knows you is the rule of the day, not what you know or even what you can do. I know that is often true in most corporate enviroments, but at Blizzard it is taken to the extreme. It is like a Monty Pyton skit about corporate advancment.

I know the question everybody is about to ask. It is asked every time I mention this corporate nightmare. How can they even function, How can they produce something as massive and complex as Wow? Well, if it wasn't for the China office and a few select individuals fortunate enough to know the person who is responsible for the job they actually have skills for, they wouldn't. These unique and special individuals plus the China office are responsible for nearly all that you see, not the offices in Irvine.

And, before you ask, I was like any number of temps, brought in to their QA department. But, after hearing and seeing how things are managed, the poor treatment by those above on those below, the near military dictatorship, I did not bother to accept becoming perm.

Sounds like you had a few problems with Blizzard or Blizzard had problems with you. Whatever they do, they please us fans, and I can really give a shit less how the company is ran; unless it effects the quality of its games.

 

[Taskeen]

if there's one company ignorant, arrogant and misunderstanding of their "true" fanbase it's blizzard.

Oh, for realz?! And how may that be?

The switch from Warcraft 3 to WoW perhaps? I've never been much of a Warcraft fan myself (especially since I thought WC3 was incredibly boring with the exception of tower defense maps), but I seem to remember some fans being pretty disappointed with Blizzard around that time. It was something to do with changes to the lore and stuff, I think, sort of like I've heard fans of the earlier Elder Scrolls games being critical to the lore (among other parts) of the later games not matching the earlier stuff.

I could be entirely mistaken about this, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was a Warcraft fan who felt bad about WoW (in which case he has my sympathies). Stupid memory, I wish I remembered more about this stuff

People seem to be forgetting that not only has Blizzard been working on Diablo III (while keeping that game true it's predecessors), but also Starcraft II. Again, SC2 sticks to its roots.

Also as far as WoW goes, I'm betting that Blizzard will announce Warcraft IV in the not so distant future (because WoW is definitely not WCIV). I'll believe that game is WCIV when it's not subscription based, which obviously shall never come to pass. I should not have to pay a damn monthly fee to continue adventuring in "Warcraft lore." MMO's are time-money-sucks, and Blizzard will obviously milk as much money as they can out of the retards who play them (I'm deeply sorry for those that do).

 

[Per]

Don't quote a large post only to add two lines at the bottom.

 

[Taskeen]

Don't quote a large post only to add two lines at the bottom.

Actually, Mr. "I'm so Important," I wrote 5 sentences, which is considered minimum for a paragraph. I think my "two lines" were adequate for the content I was quoting, unless you are refering to goffy59.

 

[Makagulfazel]

Don't quote a large post only to add two lines at the bottom.

Actually, Mr. "I'm so Important," I wrote 5 sentences, which is considered minimum for a paragraph. I think my "two lines" were adequate for the content I was quoting.

Lol, he is kind of a big deal around here; hence the "Administrator" tag.

But I believe he was talking about Goffy. Double Wammy.

 

[Per]

I think my "two lines" were adequate for the content I was quoting, unless you are refering to goffy59.

I was referring to goffy, although you also had a quote pyramid thing going there.

 

[Kyuu]

*snip*

I simply find it difficult to believe that Blizzard could be chock full of people who have no idea what they're doing and still keep up WoW while developing SC2, D3, and everything else they have to do. Although I readily admit that I could be quite wrong, it sounds to me like you had a bad experience as a temp there, with a few bad apples in the lower rungs, and your view of the entire company has been colored badly as a result.

If Blizzard really is run that poorly, then I'm saddened to hear it. But, whatever they're doing must be working to some extent. SC2 and D3 are the two games I'm looking forward to most in the near future.

 

[terebikun]

I seem to remember some fans being pretty disappointed with Blizzard around that time. It was something to do with changes to the lore and stuff, I think, sort of like I've heard fans of the earlier Elder Scrolls games being critical to the lore (among other parts) of the later games not matching the earlier stuff.

The lore's stayed pretty consistent, I think the big problem between Warcraft 2 and 3 was the hero system, which added a pretty brilliant layer of strategy but a lot of people weren't willing to make the jump, and the lower unit cap, which was also smart as it forced micro and more exciting skirmishes, but again people want their 200 unit armies. I think Warcraft 3 also had the misfortune of not being Starcraft 2, which is what most people I knew wanted at the time (if I recall, it was about the same time as all the Starcraft: Hybrid rumors).

Sometimes I wish Warcraft 3 was never made, if just for the notion that it got into Blizzard's head that it's ok to lose the earlier distinctiveness of their franchises' visual styles, and replace them with cartoonish bullshit.

The irony being the art style became more distinctive as it became more "cartoonish".

Imo the heroes of Warcraft 3 should be the classes of WoW

Death knights in the new expansion.

and the whole undead race of WoW has nothing to do at all with Warcraft.

Someone didn't play the single player campaign.

Warcraft is just about simple fun, no deepness.

Now them's fightin' words.

The gameplay trailer just showed a hack n slay game without the great atmosphere and an average graphics style without the details and the devastation its predecessors featured. it doesn't even have fitting music tracks

I believe the point of gameplay video was to show exactly the hacking and slashing that makes up the gameplay. For details, check out the sweet animations that are Blizzard's forte, especially in the destructible environments (devastation!). Also, the priests summoning the giant demon thing (to name one example) fit pretty well into Diablo's established atmosphere. I can't comment on the music, mostly because I couldn't really hear it over the dude talking.

 

[shihonage]

Sometimes I wish Warcraft 3 was never made, if just for the notion that it got into Blizzard's head that it's ok to lose the earlier distinctiveness of their franchises' visual styles, and replace them with cartoonish bullshit.

The irony being the art style became more distinctive as it became more "cartoonish".

I said "franchises" not "franchise's". The meaning of this would've been contextually clearer to you if you haven't isolated but a tiny snippet of my post for a reply.

They apply the same visual style to every 3D game they are working on. Making all their franchises look alike is the opposite of "distinctiveness", there's no irony here whatsoever, and you need to learn how to read.

 

[Moving Target]

You do have a point about the distinctiveness of the graphics.

When I saw the screenshots of SC2 (even after they made them 'darker' or whatever) I thought, "Huh.... that looks a lot like Warcraft 3. Hope it's going to be a good game." I had a bizarre sense of deja vu with the D3 demo for the same reason.

I mean, hey, I really like WC3's art and style, BUT, I don't think Blizzard should be hewing so closely to its look. It doesn't entirely work for the other games. Not to say that D3 has to be sepia-toned like a mofo or anything, just that it should look more...y'know... Diablo-ey.

D1 and D2 look quite a bit alike; why shouldn't fans of the series ( ^———) expect that the third iteration should look more like the other games in the series and less like WC3?

 

[terebikun]

I said "franchises" not "franchise's". The meaning of this would've been contextually clearer to you if you haven't isolated but a tiny snippet of my post for a reply.

They apply the same visual style to every 3D game they are working on. Making all their franchises look alike is the opposite of "distinctiveness", there's no irony here whatsoever, and you need to learn how to read.

Explain to me how the earlier franchise installments were so distinct when they all had concept art in a similar style, other than hardware differences meant the resolution and details improved with each game? Here's some more irony: you're making such a big deal about the lack of distinction between each series, yet in the same post declare that gray=Diablo and blue=Warcraft 3.

 

[Reverend-Mauser]

Don't quote a large post only to add two lines at the bottom.

Actually, Mr. "I'm so Important," I wrote 5 sentences, which is considered minimum for a paragraph. I think my "two lines" were adequate for the content I was quoting.

Lol, he is kind of a big deal around here; hence the "Administrator" tag.

But I believe he was talking about Goffy. Double Wammy.

yeah i noticed that too. (wow and i still feel dumb.)

and it seems i need to add at least a paragraph or more to please everyone around here. Hey thats cool. (i havent ever played diablo or ww1-3, WOW yes i have played that and was kinda dissapointed about my trial membership..)

Is this enough? no? ok? Hmm those pictures that were shown are quite different in terms of mood. the darker one i really liked more.

(hahah gayness) and whats this about removing strikes? Pope did that. So It is removable? ok..good.

I really enjoy how everyone sticks up for fallout. And roots out the stuff that isnt right. Well i only wish BETH understood all that.

 

[aronsearle]

I can't comment on the music, mostly because I couldn't really hear it over the dude talking.

The graphics are defiantly going in a different direction, but straight away i though to myself, that music is spot on.

But then it's much easier to judge a change in art style than it is for a musical style.

 

[shihonage]

Explain to me how the earlier franchise installments were so distinct when they all had concept art in a similar style, other than hardware differences meant the resolution and details improved with each game? Here's some more irony: you're making such a big deal about the lack of distinction between each series, yet in the same post declare that gray=Diablo and blue=Warcraft 3.

Concept art is a mock-up.. The art that ends in the game is the final design. The "hardware limitations limited the amount of colors back then" argument is bullshit. It may apply to Quake, because of a complex 3D engine with shadowmaps and realtime lightsourcing, but it certainly didn't affect Blizzard's tile-based 2D sprite games.

Warcraft 2 already had the "clean, bright cartoonish look" back in the time when they used 2D sprites and 8-bit color palette. Diablo series didn't. Neither did Starcraft. It was an artistic, design choice, at the time when all three franchises ran in 640x480, 8-bit color.

Upon the move to 3D, WC3's look advanced WC2's cartoonishness even further. Starcraft 2 also looked cartoonish at first, and that hasn't been entirely removed. Now it is Diablo 3's turn.

You know what is the real irony here ? The games had distinct appearances because they used 2D sprites which were pre-rendered on powerful hardware. They crammed as much detail as they wanted into those sprites, limited only by resolution.

Upon move to 3D, suddenly handling many enemies on the screen became a problem, and Blizzard is intent on maintaining low entry hardware requirements.

THIS is why they use the "clean look" now. The "universality" of their clean look TODAY is because of Blizzard's intent to stick to low-end hardware. Which wasn't as much of a problem in the days of real 2D.

It's not about "hardware limitations of yore not letting them make everything into a cartoon", it's about "self-imposed hardware limitations of today what force them to make everything into a cartoon". Can't exactly normal map every nook and cranny when you want people with onboard 3D accelerators to run your game.

That here, is the irony.

 

[Wooz]

So It is removable? ok..good.

The only thing 'removable' here is your idiocy-spewing ass.

Banned.

 

[Corith]

*snip*

I simply find it difficult to believe that Blizzard could be chock full of people who have no idea what they're doing and still keep up WoW while developing SC2, D3, and everything else they have to do. Although I readily admit that I could be quite wrong, it sounds to me like you had a bad experience as a temp there, with a few bad apples in the lower rungs, and your view of the entire company has been colored badly as a result. . .

When I started noticing it, I really thought it was just a few bad apples, I really did. However, it was some of the odd policies that caught my attention, and from that, I started looking beyond the nasty people directly around me.

I know how it sounds. I really do. I know I sound like a deranged and disgruntled employee, but the things I saw where really unbelievable. I saw, with my own eyes a programming position go to a nearly illiterate high school student who sat there all day playing wow; I saw a new tester with not a single minute of wow play time, or even any testing experience; I met international finance staffer just now getting their GED. I really did see a tester dismissed because he was caught talking to a dev while waiting for the lunch truck (they were discussing paintball); AND, with my own ears, heard temps called "scum" more times than I could count.

It was one of the worst places to work. I have never, ever, not in over 30 years (yes, I'm that old) seen a place that oppressive, that demoralizing, and that degrading. I have never seen such unprofessionalism in a working environment.

 

[goffy59]

When I started noticing it, I really thought it was just a few bad apples, I really did. However, it was some of the odd policies that caught my attention, and from that, I started looking beyond the nasty people directly around me.

I know how it sounds. I really do. I know I sound like a deranged and disgruntled employee, but the things I saw where really unbelievable. I saw, with my own eyes a programming position go to a nearly illiterate high school student who sat there all day playing wow; I saw a new tester with not a single minute of wow play time, or even any testing experience; I met international finance staffer just now getting their GED. I really did see a tester dismissed because he was caught talking to a dev while waiting for the lunch truck (they were discussing paintball); AND, with my own ears, heard temps called "scum" more times than I could count.

It was one of the worst places to work. I have never, ever, not in over 30 years (yes, I'm that old) seen a place that oppressive, that demoralizing, and that degrading. I have never seen such unprofessionalism in a working environment.

Well I'm starting to see you're point, though, maybe it would be insightful to explain how the temp position works. Maybe Blizzard keeps temps in the dark and wants to know how much they can put up with before they move them to larger projects. If a company treated me like shit, I'd say the same thing. Also, I think that's pretty bad on how they treated you and other temps.


As far as Starcraft 2 being cartoony, I'm glad Blizzard has fixed some of it, but I hope they make it even less cartoony.
I have a question maybe someone can answer...
If sprites can pack so much detail; considering how great even Fallout Tactics looks. Why don't companies try to make a sprite/2d game? What holds them back from doing this. And why I ask, is because I'm thinking about how much more powerful computers are even if you have a shitty video card, and how much new technology exists, why can't they try to recreate a 2d engine and optimize it to today's standards. I'm getting real sick of playing piece of shit games like Crysis and being disappointed. If graphic engines are what drives a game to the market; I don't want to play it. There has been too many games that have failed my quality standards. On Crysis the only thing that's unique(then again alot of games have something like this) about the game is the different modes you can go in (str, speed,armor); and the pathetic thing about it is that you don't even need to use it that much.

 

[shihonage]

The problem with pre-rendered 2D sprites is that they don't scale to different resolutions like 3D models would. See what happens when you run Fallout/Planescape at higher resolutions... everything becomes smaller.