A few thoughts

[Endless Void]

Re: yes you need mounts

One other thing: if you're going to have a brahmin-based economy, you better have vehicles or mounts, or ranching is much more difficult. A herd of cattle or buffalo has little difficulty escaping a man on foot.

uhmmm... I think that's the point in not having vehicles or mounts... if herding brahmin would be "that" easy, all the towns would have flourished already... and I don't think seeing the clash of BIG communities -like NCR and Vault City in FO2- would fit the setting... it's all about survival out there in the wasteland...

 

[slobberindeathclaw]

Well people have to eat. You either have farming or ranching, or preferably both. I'm saying ranching of big herbivores is basically impossible without vehicles or horses and/or dogs. I for one have no problem with the notion of a post-apocalyptic cowboy.

Yes, it's a struggle for survival, but the fact is you can't have any permanent settlements without farming or ranching. If you want everyone to be nomadic hunters and gatherers, that's different ... but the Fallout universe presumes some human effort at rebuilding towns -- which are only possible with organized food production.

The Road Warrior pretty much ignored this basic fact -- the small settlement of 'civilized' folk with the oil well appeared to be subsisting on a few chickens and a pig, IIRC. Not enough for a few dozen people for more than a week, maybe. Unless they had a stash of Max's favorite canned dog food buried somewhere ...

I'm just saying having horses or something like them makes sense and fits within the Fallout universe of small towns rebuilding. The real question is whether adding them into the game is worth the effort.

 

[Duckman]

Think about Mustangs or the stuff living in australia.

They are brumbies dude...

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm just saying having horses or something like them makes sense and fits within the Fallout universe of small towns rebuilding. The real question is whether adding them into the game is worth the effort.

And is it worth in the fight to be mounted, cause in FT the turn based fight was not worth to be in the cars, cause they didn't move when you(the driver) wanted, but when the turn was ending and that's just horrible(they were critters, whit stats that were 1 in all...), they have to be made better, or the rules have to be broadened to include then.

Possible mounts to:
1) Horse,
2) Mole rat,
3) Dogat, a manmade inbreed of dog and a mole rat.(like a mule is inbreed of horse and donkey.
4) a BIG dog.
5) Brahmin.
6) of corse the cars...

Then when it comes to the enemys, I would like to see a (intellegent)racoon mounted on a wolf.

 

[Roshambo]

Re: yes you need mounts

One other thing: if you're going to have a brahmin-based economy, you better have vehicles or mounts, or ranching is much more difficult. A herd of cattle or buffalo has little difficulty escaping a man on foot.

Since we are presuming that vehicles are rare, it makes sense that brahmin ranchers would have trained horses and/or dogs (or some animal that fulfills a similar role).

Dogs are already in the setting, and are omnivorous. And really, peasants in history have managed to herd cattle without any mounted aid whatsoever.

My guess is that horses haven't appeared in the Fallout world so far for programming reasons.

No, it's because they weren't seriously considered because of an important fact that I noted already - NOWHERE IN THE FALLOUT UNIVERSE DO HERBIVOROUS CREATURES EXIST EXCEPT FOR IN HUMAN CARE. Or there is some special circumstances around it, and it would have to be pretty damn special and pretty damn costly in maintaining what really does serve little purpose to most people in the wasteland. The Fallout wasteland is too rough, and the presence of a majority of critters that feed off of one another leads to an entropic downward spiral of the food chain.

Besides, from what each could give, horse < brahmin. You can theoretically milk a brahmin and also get meat from them. Does the same regarding a horse seem anywhere as appealing? They can really only act as a mount or labor, as the brahmin does everything else better and can literally pull it's own weight with a slower gait that it can pull all day to take a caravan or till the field.

Comparatively, what use is a horse in the wasteland? Travel and some field work. Very few people have reason to travel in the wasteland, and caravans benefit much more from brahmin.

 

[zioburosky13]

Not to flame here but you can eat horse meat, drink horse milk. Just ask those mongolian. As their lives depends on horse. (Genghis khan anyone?)

However if life in the wasteland force humans to live a nomad life, I think horse will be much suitable to do the job, as speed is essential to move from places to places. 8)

 

[Roshambo]

Not to flame here but you can eat horse meat, drink horse milk. Just ask those mongolian. As their live depends on horse. (Genghis khan anyone?)

Yeah, then try to pass that off to someone in the US. It just doesn't quite seem to happen. It IS possible, but without supplemental feed from their grazing (which is going to be almost nil), their usefulness is a bit lower than what is commonly held as a produce animal. I can see how some think it's just like the Wild West, but people seem to forget one thing - what grass and vegetation? Fallout's landscape isn't that lively. Without that greenery, you can't easily feed any beast of burdon, and therefore the one that coupld supply more and do more tends to outweigh the speed of a horse. Neither a farmer nor a caravaner have any real need for a horse.

However if life in the wasteland force humans to live a nomad life, I think horse will be much suitable to do the job, as speed is essential to move from places to places. 8)

For that to happen, they would also need an abundant supply of free food for the mounts, which isn't going to really happen in Fallout. I also doubt anyone would be nomadic, unless they had a high-end merchandise like the Gunrunners, that allowed them to live in such a style. Even then, keeping them alive for hundreds of years after the Great War is a bit of a stretch due to breeding concerns. That requires a significant breeding stock, which isn't going to be on the same level as brahmin, which can and apparently are traded for valuables with other communities via caravan.

 

[zioburosky13]

Speaking of vege. and grass...

Isn't that there are some sort of desert weed still kicking in the desert? That might feed all those herbivore creatures.

And man grown corn? Or cabbage? Looks like there are plenty of vege. in the wasteland to me

The only reason I can think why horse is not suitable in the wasteland is they are not as strong as ox (or bradhim). An ox can carry stuffs that require 2 horses to carry. :idea:

 

[slobberindeathclaw]

Not to flame here but you can eat horse meat, drink horse milk. Just ask those mongolian. As their live depends on horse. (Genghis khan anyone?)

Yeah, then try to pass that off to someone in the US. It just doesn't quite seem to happen. It IS possible, but without supplemental feed from their grazing (which is going to be almost nil), their usefulness is a bit lower than what is commonly held as a produce animal. I can see how some think it's just like the Wild West, but people seem to forget one thing - what grass and vegetation? Fallout's landscape isn't that lively. Without that greenery, you can't easily feed any beast of burdon, and therefore the one that coupld supply more and do more tends to outweigh the speed of a horse. Neither a farmer nor a caravaner have any real need for a horse.

However if life in the wasteland force humans to live a nomad life, I think horse will be much suitable to do the job, as speed is essential to move from places to places. 8)

For that to happen, they would also need an abundant supply of free food for the mounts, which isn't going to really happen in Fallout. I also doubt anyone would be nomadic, unless they had a high-end merchandise like the Gunrunners, that allowed them to live in such a style. Even then, keeping them alive for hundreds of years after the Great War is a bit of a stretch due to breeding concerns. That requires a significant breeding stock, which isn't going to be on the same level as brahmin, which can and apparently are traded for valuables with other communities via caravan.

Well Ro, the food for people and Brahmin is coming from somewhere ... and it ain't all canned dog food. Without farming or ranching or available game/forage, we would be extinct in short order. If you're saying the Great War eliminated most edible plant life, then it's game over, man.

We don't see evidence of family farms in Fallout, other than the occasional small garden. We must conclude that hunting and ranching are a significant source of food. That presumes sufficient forage for game and ranched animals. We also see Brahmin, which if they're anything like cattle, are very hard to manage by regular people on foot.

I further submit to you that horses, from a natural selection perspective, have an equal or greater chance of survival as a species than cattle. They are faster and smarter. A horse has a better chance of outrunning the nuclear twister than a cow. Put another way, if enough breeding stock of cattle made it, you can certainly see how enough horse breeding stock survived the War.

Also, equines have important (not edible) uses for people. Horses and dogs are about the only trainable mammals in North America (and don't tell me about your trainable cat that flushes the toilet here). With fuel scarce, horse transportation and assistance in farming and ranching would be mighty useful. A good horse, in fact, is worth a lot more than a good bull.

Again, it's not a stretch to conclude that some communities have some "horse" type animal. Whether to make them part of the playing experience ... ah, that is the question.

Since civilization has been nuked back into the Iron Age (with some tech lying around), it makes sense that Iron Age (and earlier) tech would be used ... a big part of which invovled animal husbandry.

And wouldn't a lonely post-apocalyptic cowboy/marshal riding into the radiated wasteland be just ... cool?

 

[Kaya]

Yeah, then try to pass that off to someone in the US. It just doesn't quite seem to happen.

I know you weren't being serious but in a world where rats and geckos are a staple food source I don't see Horse meat being all that bad in comparison.

It IS possible, but without supplemental feed from their grazing (which is going to be almost nil), their usefulness is a bit lower than what is commonly held as a produce animal. I can see how some think it's just like the Wild West, but people seem to forget one thing - what grass and vegetation? Fallout's landscape isn't that lively. Without that greenery, you can't easily feed any beast of burdon, and therefore the one that coupld supply more and do more tends to outweigh the speed of a horse. Neither a farmer nor a caravaner have any real need for a horse.

This might sound sarcastic and it's not meant to - but what do Brahmin eat? Presumably whatever it is could feed a horse too.

Of course simply because a horse could eat the same food doesn't mean people would be prepared to feed them, but a horse in the wild could presumably feed itself. Greenery of some description does exist in Fallout, even it it's only shrubs, weeds, manky trees and ferns.
That enviroment may not allow the bit, tough purebreds we see today, but I reckon some rangy, hardy breeds could cling on, maybe even thrive.
A horse is a damn useful thing to have around, no matter where you live.

Travelling by caravan may not be convenient, you may want to go somewhere no caravan goes, or at a time between caravan visits.

Having never seen one we don't know they survived, but horses in the real world can be found in some very inhospitable places, such as the Arabian desert.

I'm not trying to argue that horses should be included, just that they could have survived. Maybe.

 

[Dreadnought]

50z = People were down with western movies.

Western movies = horses.

Cryo tanks = source of fresh tasty horse... meat....

And i even invited a name for the horse.


Horsemeat.





Edit:

I was consulting teh mighty google for "HORSEMEAT" as the transcendent creature providet me with this picture.

It kinda lookz kool.

Edit 2:

And this:

 

[Hotel California]

Re: yes you need mounts

No, it's because they weren't seriously considered because of an important fact that I noted already - NOWHERE IN THE FALLOUT UNIVERSE DO HERBIVOROUS CREATURES EXIST EXCEPT FOR IN HUMAN CARE.

Sorry to nit pick but there must be something, otherwise it doesn't work. Perhaps whatever it isn't portrayed due to technical limitations (we never saw the iguana but we know they were there) - for example, why would the FRMers go to all the trouble of making a creature (such as a pig or a sheep) that won't fight back or attack. The brahmin were a stock labouring/trading animal - they had to exist for some of FO to make sense but surely, whilst we don't see them, these animals would exist. Goats for instance - very hardy etc but not much of a monster encounter.

We don't see evidence of family farms in Fallout, other than the occasional small garden. We must conclude that hunting and ranching are a significant source of food. That presumes sufficient forage for game and ranched animals. We also see Brahmin, which if they're anything like cattle, are very hard to manage by regular people on foot.

There are farms in FO -
Ex. 1 - in Shady Sands
Ex. 2 - in the enterance to the hub there is quite a large farming area
Ex. 3 - The guy who gives you the 22.3 pistol for clearing out his farm just outside of the hub (one of many we can suppose)
Ex. 4 - In FO2 - Modoc and the Ghost town.

Yeah ranching happened, in FO2 Westin had a ranch (presumably brahmin) and there was the slaughter house pen AND the other pen in Klamath - obvious signs of brahmin as meat.

 

[Roshambo]

I'll just cover the last few replies in this.

Again, I will put it simply for people to understand. The only herbivorous creatures are in human care. Iguanas are NOT herbivorous, and neither are the geckos. That is the point I have been trying to get across - there isn't a DAMN thing for natural foliage in Fallout, as people would know if they had bothered to look at the landscape while they were playing the game. Nuked? Yes. Vegetaion? Dead. Again, what herbivores, and without the presence of herbivores, the carnivores tend to turn to preying on humankind to survive. Take the 50's science book and remove wild herbivores from the food chain, and you essentially have Fallout's basic ecology.

Compared to the multiple uses of the brahmin, a horse isn't worth shit in the wasteland to anyone who doesn't specifically need a horse's speed/etc., as a brahmin helps a lot more with more aspects of village life than a horse. You could put the same amount of food into each animal and still result in the cow giving you food (milk) on a more substantial basis than a horse. Also, milking a horse is substantially more awkward compared to a bovine, and they don't give anywhere as much milk as a cow for the trouble. Hence why horse milk is considered a delicacy in many places, and horse meat is substantially more expensive than beef for a reason - only long-lived animals give the better cuts with horses, while cows aren't that rough throughout their life.

Then also in the setting, the idea of eating a horse would be odd to the player and against the stylings of the 50's settings as your horse was your cowboy companion, not your dinner. Dreadnaught: Ironic that you would use the leap in logic that because people liked Western movies in the 50's, that makes it perfectly fine for the fiction style of Fallout, but thank you for mentioning it as the attitude towards people in the US would be to starve than kill their companion. Iguana-on-a-Stick was amusing considering where it came from, considering everything else seems to enjoy eating people, and without the buyers knowing of the origins else it would force the stand out of business, so to speak.

Also note that I am not saying that they are completely implausible, but they would be an unlikely choice for humans to keep for long in the wasteland. Long-distance travel away from cities isn't really a concern to anyone in the wasteland but a drifter or a mail carrier, and I don't think we need to revisit one of the dreary plots from a Costner movie.

As for farms in the Fallout universe, they are also in the Boneyards, Redding, etc. Farming is about the only source of food except for brahmin, which can also survive from the grain farmed. A half-dead bush isn't going to feed anything worth shit, really.

 

[slobberindeathclaw]

Um, no. Cattle graze with VERY occasional grain feeding, simply because of the mass quantums of vegetation consumed by them. There simply wouldn't be any grains left over for the humans -- they'd be farming just to feed the darned cows, and would be better off simply eating the grains themselves.

The very existence of Brahmin dictates that there must be substantial grazeable plantlife. And if there's grazing for Brahmin, there is for muta-horses too. Not to mention that you need the muta-horses (or vehicles) simply to deal with any significant number of brahmin.

To summarize the pro-Horse argument on this thread:
1. Horses are smarter and have equal or better survival chances after the Great War than Brahmin
2. Horses provide transportation, combat, herding, and companionship functions that Brahmin cannot
3. After dogs, horses are the most trainable mammal in North America
4. Horses are necessary for any herding of Brahmin, unless vehicles are used
5. Horse milk/meat could be used as a supplemental food source, particularly in a world where iguana-on-a-stick is a delicacy.

We of the pro-horse faction therefore conclude that the presence of horses in F3 would make sense and be cool, and if a mounted feature could be added for deserving/qualified PCs, it would be even cooler.

 

[Ashmo]

Oh, no. Not the C argument.

:: prepares for a roshambular counterstrike ::

 

[RPGenius]

Dreadnought. Quit posting pictures that have no relevance. You aren't telling us anything new or interesting by showing you found google.com/images.

If this is an achievement for you, I hope you enjoy the party.

 

[Hotel California]

We of the pro-horse faction therefore conclude that the presence of horses in F3 would make sense and be cool, and if a mounted feature could be added for deserving/qualified PCs, it would be even cooler.

Whoa, before you go mouthing off about a "pro-horse" faction i think you need to reconsider the thread and context in FO;
Horses aren't really ergonomically viable in a PA wasteland - for the grain you put in you get less than 10% of the total energy back - where does it all go, fertlisers might be useful but don't out weigh the costs.

As i originally said, horses and fallout just don't work for me - it would be weird and fantasy like.

Don't lump me in with your faction, i'm just stating the facts.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Not to mention that you need the muta-horses (or vehicles) simply to deal with any significant number of brahmin.

There you have your answer, then. The biggest brahmin herds in the wasteland, such as the one in Modoc, barely have a dozen animals. We can surmise that most families have one or two bovines - enough to provide them with milk every day. You *don't* need horses or dogs to herd a handful of bovines. Thousands of peasants in Croatia have livestock, yet they don't use horses and dogs to herd them, simply because it isn't feasible to have trained animals for the trivial task of guarding a few cows or sheep.

 

[zioburosky13]

Cow-dropping is more potent than horse dropping. Remember how the boneyard's dwellers make ammunition and grow their food?

 

[slobberindeathclaw]

Everyone is still ignoring the point: a few measly gardens and a couple of Brahmin are insuffiicent to support a community of more than a dozen people. Towns are impossible without farming or ranching. Where is all the food coming from otherwise?

It is plausible (even likely) that there is ranching in the Fallout universe, and the use of horses and/or dogs is necessary for effective ranching of a herd of large herbivores. Yes, a couple of Croats can manage a handful of cattle, but I'm talking about 40+ head of Brahmin here. Horses would be very useful to some communities and worth the investment. I'm not saying they would be common.

Having just picked up Morrowind, however (out of curiosity, to see what Bethesda stuff looked like), I am pessimistic about horses in a FP, 3D, real time game. Although I heard it was done in EQ. In my mind, I was imagining our lovely 2D wasteland and my post-apocalyptic cowboy charging a line of Raiders. Hard to see it happening with Bethesda at the helm, as their top people have stated that they're going to stick with 'what they do best,' which is presumably console/PC FP games. I have a feeling we're going to end up playing Quake: Fallout.

So I surrender and humbly bow out of the fray, tail between my hairy deathclaw legs.