American soldiers....

[Brother None]

Methinks you people are just confused by the fact that I took note at the first use of the word "representation" to note that they do not "represent" the country in an official sense making a sentence like "soldiers represent the country"-period a bit odd in my eyes.

I never denied that soldiers are used to measure a country's worth. I do deny that this is the same as representation in the political sense. That's all.

Differentiate between "Politicians represent their country"-period and "soldiers are a representation of their country to the world". Notice the indefinite article.

Murdoch; now you hit the nail on the head. What you're talking about is accountability. What I'm talking about is representation. These are different things. A country can be held accountable for the actions of its army is not the same as the army represent the country.

Really, people, if you haven't mastered the English language that is no fault of mine.

PS: "talking down to someone" as well as swearing usually means someone is getting worked up about the subject. Which usually indicates a lack of objectivity. Which usually indicates that one is wrong.

 

[TorontoReign]

Well I feel that I represent my country since I am a soldier. Nothing can change that. If you do not feel that way then ok. I really don't care. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's fucking fantastic by me.

 

[Murdoch]

I understand your distinction perfectly well, Kharn. My argument is that your distinction is irrelevent for almost all applications.

Your statement made me think that you completely discounted the reality of representation, versus the narrow diplomatic definition. Hence my retort.

 

[Brother None]

I understand your distinction perfectly well, Kharn. My argument is that your distinction is irrelevent for almost all applications.

Not really. While actions by the military are definitely relevant, nobody is going to care if some military man wrote a letter home to his wife which says "I hate these fucking Iraqis". Were the ambassador of the US in Iraq to do the same and was this letter to be made public, there would be hell to pay, both for him and for the country.

Which is the difference between representation and responsibility.

Besides which, I think you're walking too easily by the fact that people will mostly view a country by their own sphere of influence. Iraqis no doubt have the US military as the representation of the US because it's all they see. Europeans generally care more about what happens in the White House. Chinese, no doubt, care more about the unfair trade concessions and judge the US by whatever they know of them, be it businessmen or politicians that deal with these issues.

That's why it's so odd to simply state that soldiers represent their country. Because they don't. The reason for the conflagration surrounding political decisions around the army is that it tends to be matters of life and death, but the political decisions always outscale military decisions (barring non-political genocide) in international eyes. In other words, the invasion of Iraq as a whole is bigger than Abu Graib.

But this does make soldiers an important factor in viewing a country. TorontRayne is proposing that thus asking "what do you think of American soldiers" equates "what do you think of Americans". That's pushing it a bit too far for me. I don't judge America by its soldiers nor think they're representative of their country's make-up. Nor do I know any European that does. And I doubt the US judges the Netherlands by its military.

TorontRayne; I don't feel like your statements represent your country. Your being a soldier doesn't make them any more relevant.

PS: look up representation in the dictionary and point out which meaning you think should be used in this context. I thank you.

 

[vladoone_]

soldiers represent their countries.american soldiers are good only in killing civilians.korea,vietnam,iraq,jugoslavia.if the american soldiers were so brave why they didn't send marines in jugoslavia.i am sure it would happen just like the 13 german's tank divisions which never came back.there is different between bombing from air end fighting on land.coward

 

[Wooz]

Yet another poster suffering from typing diahrrea and mental constipation. There is still hope, however. From such posts constructive or creative things emerge. Some creative retort, a small step in education of the poster or a flight down the stairs a la Rochambeau.

It's like a pearl, sometimes. A little piece of shit slips in and beauty grows around it.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Weee! I posted on an Internet forum!

 

[Elissar]

soldiers represent their countries.american soldiers are good only in killing civilians.korea,vietnam,iraq,jugoslavia.if the american soldiers were so brave why they didn't send marines in jugoslavia.i am sure it would happen just like the 13 german's tank divisions which never came back.there is different between bombing from air end fighting on land.coward

Ahem.

You sir, are an idiot. While the statement "soldiers represent their countries" is partially true, it does nothing to legitimise the rest of the nonsense you have spewed in this post.

Lets look at this part in particular.

countries.american soldiers are good only in killing civilians.korea,vietnam,iraq,jugoslavia.if

The job of the soldiers is to neutralize enemy aggressors while minimising the collateral civilian damage. unfortunately, it is often impassable to totally avoid civilian casualties due to the fact that in many cases guerrilla tactics are used against our armed forces, ie: shooting at soldiers from a crowd of civilian non-combatants.

And before you go and spout off about how the US is butchering civilians in Iraq. I would ask you to do a little research and then perhaps you will see that the majority of civilian deaths in Iraq have been caused by insurgent forces.

And now for the 3rd part of my post. We will address this final nugget of wisdom.

back.there is different between bombing from air end fighting on land.coward

Yes, their is a difference between those two styles of combat. Thank you for pointing the obvious out to the rest of us.

Also, in the future. until you have actually been in combat yourself, please refrain from calling myself or any other soldier a "land.coward".

Elissar

 

[Jebus]

I think we've found another aspect that separates Europe from the US. Anyone working fro the goverment, from the pm/president to the janitor is a representative of that government to me. That includes arguments about trains (wtf?).

Eheh. I'm looking forward to the day when janitors can declare war on countries. It would be wildly amusing.

And I guess the only real image of American soldiers I have is that they are mostly overly agressive and keen on getting 'confirmed kills'. This might sound like a trait inherent to military personnel to most, but it isn't - or it shouldn't be. I'd much rather have calm, balanced people toting guns than blood-thirsty rednecks. But maybe that's just me.

 

[SNorth]

Rednecks are more 'beer-thirsty' than 'blood-thirsty' in my experience.

 

[Paladin Solo]

And I guess the only real image of American soldiers I have is that they are mostly overly agressive and keen on getting 'confirmed kills'. This might sound like a trait inherent to military personnel to most, but it isn't - or it shouldn't be. I'd much rather have calm, balanced people toting guns than blood-thirsty rednecks. But maybe that's just me.

At least American soldiers get confirmed kills, instead of being nothing but confirmed kills.

All in good humour, don't get a boner over what I just said.

 

[TorontoReign]

Wow. Being called a coward makes me want to shoot someone. Someone that can't spell, use proper puncuation, or even make sense. Someone like "Vladofuck" up there ^. Hey "Vladofuck"! How old are you and who fucked your monkey? You make no fucking sense. Please refrain from posting in the "big boy" threads ok?

 

[Kab]

ok

 

[Ashmo]

TorontRayne:

Keep your masturbation to yourself please. You're not exactly impressing anyone by restricting yourself to juvenile bashing. I know you could do better.

As for "Kab":

I could not overread your ignorance regarding Thomas Hobbes.

Not exactly the most brilliant first post you could have made.

PS: Die pls.

 

[Sander]

ok

Dude, weak. If people don't agree with you or think your post was dumb, don't edit everything out. Not only is it annoying, it makes you look even worse.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

soldiers represent their countries.american soldiers are good only in killing civilians.korea,vietnam,iraq,jugoslavia.if the american soldiers were so brave why they didn't send marines in jugoslavia.i am sure it would happen just like the 13 german's tank divisions which never came back.there is different between bombing from air end fighting on land.coward

Yeah, ok.

*COUGH*thosegermansyourefferedtokilledlotsmoreciviliansthanamericansoldiereverhave*COUGH COUGH COUGH*

But, hey. I don't want to ruin the logic of your mastubatory self-righteous statements.

 

[welsh]

To represent in a legal capacity in international law would suggest that the person is vested with sovereign authority. Normally the person who "speaks for" the state is the head of state or the head of the government (as in the Prime Minister).

But soveriegnty of a state can also lie in a naval vessel that comes to port, or an aircraft that is used for government business. It might also be representative in the soldiers who carry out the orders of the state.

That said, I think the question is less "how they represent america" but whether how American soldiers are seen as representing American culture, or providing a reflection of America. Or I'm wrong.

As for Americans in uniform- they go in for a variety of reasons. A remarkably many did so for patriot reasons. Enlistment soared after 9-11. Others get pressured to join from family or peers, and others go for college money or get a career. A few can't get into college and the military is a way out, and I hear that these days they are giving foreigners citizenship if they join the army.

Who do they reflect America? That's hard to say. Generally the military is more conservative than the rest of the country, they are also more patriotic and I think less questioning of authority. I also think they are more Christian- but that's because the Southern states have more of a military tradition than other regions- but I could be wrong on that.

I have taught quite a few soldiers- both enlisted and officer trainees. I like most of them, but I like most kids. I think they are usually less bloodthirsty than other students (predominantly republicans) and often a bit more clear headed. Than again, I have known quite a few assholes in uniform.

I agree with Kharn, the military should not be revered. That's a dangerous habit.

Me, I have a lot of sympathy for these kids. Some of them are going to get shot at, kill people and see some terrible things.

Once I was keen to join the military, now I would try to talk my kids out of it. Joining the military out of devotion to one's country is as stupid as being a religious fanatic. It allows you to be manipulated by political leaders who have no understanding or appreciatiation of what it means to go to war, and yet will throw away your lives in order to make a buck for their friends. Considering how many of our guys are coming back from Iraq with Post Traumatic Shock, yeah I appreciate what they do, but these days all I can feel is sympathy.

 

[SNorth]

I had three solid reasons to join the military. One, I always wanted to be a soldier. My father was and many of my relatives were. Two, I always wanted to be a cop. And three, I needed college money. I accomplished all three by becoming a Military Policeman. I finished college. I served my country honorably, and I believe I represented the U.S. military well. It changed my life for the better. I learned to appreciate simple things like good food, shelter, being clean and being able to sleep anywhere or any time by being deprived of them. People take too many of the basic luxuries of life for granted. Joining the military gave me an edge in my later life. I learned to endure misery, deprivation and whatever head game they tried to play on me. I learned the value of working as a team and maintaining a good attitude whenever you approach something difficult. After all, whatever we accomplish or don't accomplish in life probably came down to a head game. Can I or can't I? The army isn't the only place to learn these things of course, but it is a good place to learn the value of self sacrifice. I learned to appreciate what I have.

(Hope I didn't go too far of topic)

 

[Elissar]

As for Americans in uniform- they go in for a variety of reasons. A remarkably many did so for patriot reasons. Enlistment soared after 9-11. Others get pressured to join from family or peers, and others go for college money or get a career. A few can't get into college and the military is a way out,

I myself Joined for a few reasons, I come from a large military family, though there has never been any pressure on me to join. I needed the college money, and now have 50k USD waiting for me when i enroll (MGIB). Lastly, I always wanted to be a pilot, and the army will let me do that, if for some reason though, i'm now medically disqualified, fuck it. I'll stay crewing.

and I hear that these days they are giving foreigners citizenship if they join the army.

Not "Giving" citizenship away.. Forgin nationals are allowed to join the US military, but they still have to earn their citizenship like every other immigrant.

Who do they reflect America? That's hard to say. Generally the military is more conservative than the rest of the country, they are also more patriotic and I think less questioning of authority. I also think they are more Christian- but that's because the Southern states have more of a military tradition than other regions- but I could be wrong on that.

I have taught quite a few soldiers- both enlisted and officer trainees. I like most of them, but I like most kids. I think they are usually less bloodthirsty than other students (predominantly republicans) and often a bit more clear headed. Than again, I have known quite a few assholes in uniform.

I agree with Kharn, the military should not be revered. That's a dangerous habit.

Me, I have a lot of sympathy for these kids. Some of them are going to get shot at, kill people and see some terrible things.

Once I was keen to join the military, now I would try to talk my kids out of it. Joining the military out of devotion to one's country is as stupid as being a religious fanatic. It allows you to be manipulated by political leaders who have no understanding or appreciatiation of what it means to go to war, and yet will throw away your lives in order to make a buck for their friends. Considering how many of our guys are coming back from Iraq with Post Traumatic Shock, yeah I appreciate what they do, but these days all I can feel is sympathy.

Meh, as for more christian? Not really, I've seen people fall away from the church and it's teachings several times.. but never really from faith itself..

As for the PTSD. Yeah, we all come back with it in some form or another, but there are plenty of trained psych-doc's running around lookin at you to make shure that you arent too terribally fucked up.

Elissar

 

[Ashmo]

Heh. Anyone who joins our Bundeswehr for the money needs his IQ checked. You can barely live off it as a grunt (well, conscript. If you actually sign up for a career, you get a little bit more) because the army provides food and shelter, but that's pretty much it.
The actual pay is well below U.S. minimum wage (and things aren't neccessarily cheaper in Germany).

Luckily we got BaFöG (governmental funding) for those who can't afford studying (although that'll do jack once we have those €500/semester study fees the state wants to charge students as of 2007 -- €500 also being roughly what you're paid as a conscript per month).

There are many reasons one should consider joining the military, but none of them makes either person -- the civilian or the soldier -- a better citizen per se.