Any good games for Evil characters?

pipboy-x11

pipboy-x11

It Wandered In From the Wastes
Hi,

I'm sure this topic isn't new for anyone, but I was wondering - is there any decent game that would allow one to roleplay an evil character in a meaningful and...err... satisfying manner? Let me explain.

In all games I've seen to the moment evil characters were more like "playing an asshole". Or playing a psycho. Or a power-hungry maniac. Who kills people out of stupid cruelty. Who sales his loyal follower into slavery. And so on. The major flaw here is the problem with staying in character. I mean... people are never evil because they want to be just evil. Neither they usually power-hungry just because of the hunger for power.

I'd like to see something with a somewhat deep "evil" philosophy behind the character. With a some way to sympathize to him/her without asking yourself "why the hell I'm doing this?". The only game I've seen that came close was the "Blackguard trilogy" - a module for Neverwinder Nights. The main character, while being a boy, witnessed an execution of his elder brother on the city square. Yes, his brother was a bandit and murderer, but OTOH he was the only person in the world who treated the boy decently. So the character returns to the city after many years, full of hatred and with the only dream - burn the city to the ground and exterminate everyone because they were just watching and making fun of his brother's death. It's not an easy task (since the city is prospering) so this is where the story begins. A one with quite dark twists, I might add.

Any other games with similar backgrounds?
 
Icewind Dale 2 allows for pretty asshole-ish behavior. the game is stupidly linear however and your actions won't affect much other than dialogue. but if you like the Infinity games it can be a pretty fun and pleasant experience.
 
fa2241 said:
1. Planescape Torment
2. The Witcher
Click to expand...

I was referring to PS:T when talked about the "sale your loyal follower into slavery". Evil character in PS:T seems to be just a psychotic paranoid type. I'm looking for something closer to a "charming villain" type... like Mr. Zorg from "5th Element" movie. Something more believable.

The Witcher is probably worthy of a second look, though. Thanks.
 
aenemic said:
Icewind Dale 2 allows for pretty asshole-ish behavior.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I probably didn't express my idea clear enough. Being an asshole doesn't mean being evil. Being asshole means just that - being an asshole. This is mostly a protective behavior which comes from being weak. You will not find this trait in real-world evil characters - like high rank criminals, for example.
 
pipboy-x11 said:
aenemic said:
Icewind Dale 2 allows for pretty asshole-ish behavior.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I probably didn't express my idea clear enough. Being an asshole doesn't mean being evil. Being asshole means just that - being an asshole. This is mostly a protective behavior which comes from being weak. You will not find this trait in real-world evil characters - like high rank criminals, for example.
Click to expand...

well, that was a bad choice of words from my side then.

in IWD2 you always have the dialogue options of an evil and egoistical person. you can be greedy, mean, deceitful and so on. but like I said, it's only for flavor and not actual storytelling.
 
aenemic said:
in IWD2 you always have the dialogue options of an evil and egoistical person. you can be greedy, mean, deceitful and so on. but like I said, it's only for flavor and not actual storytelling.
Click to expand...

...And this is probably the worst problem with being evil in games. Even if you play an evil character, you still always end up "saving the world". This is just a clear and stupid contradiction to being evil. An evil character should end the game reaching some egoistic goal. Like taking over or destroying something... and stuff.. :D :D

I've just finished Jade Empire - the game that tried drifting from good/evil axes, but obviously failed. If you follow Closed Fist path - you are still expected treat your companions like shit, for example. Like evil characters shouldn't value loyalty... yeah, right, just like Hitler!</sarcasm>

Ok, I understand that game developers are trying to educate us on being good and all... But can't we sometime just release our dark side without feeling like an idiot or an asshole? Some of us a grown persons after all.
 
pipboy-x11 said:
...And this is probably the worst problem with being evil in games. Even if you play an evil character, you still always end up "saving the world". This is just a clear and stupid contradiction to being evil. An evil character should end the game reaching some egoistic goal. Like taking over or destroying something... and stuff.. :D :D
Click to expand...

I have to disagree somewhat here.

If it is a game where you are saving a Kingdom or something along the lines for someone Else's benefit then I agree.

However if we are talking a plot where some force or power is going to quite literally "destroy the world", be it by eradicating the race of said character (whether they are good or evil) or something along those lines then an evil character stands just as much to lose as a good character.

What would make the difference is the choices made along up to that point. And obviously his goals for "saving the world" would be motivated by self survival or what could be gained by doing so.
 
Evil Genius!
I know it isn't quite what you asked but the game lets you play as a Bond (Sean Connerry or Roger Moore era) Villain complete with henchman and evil island.

Other than that, I don't recall any decent "evil" characterised games.
 
Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver
Raziel is not particularly evil but more of an anti-hero.
The personal goal is there though; kill your former boss for ripping off your wings and tossing you into the void because you became cooler than him.
 
Barrett said:
Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver
Raziel is not particularly evil but more of an anti-hero.
The personal goal is there though; kill your former boss for ripping off your wings and tossing you into the void because you became cooler than him.
Click to expand...

I think hes looking for heavy RPGs with deep story interactions based on your alignment.

That being said if we are just talking about popular "evil" player characters in general then I will throw Kratos from God of War out there. He is a fucking prick and entirely consumed by vengeance to the point of madness where nothing else matters.
 
Bal-Sagoth said:
However if we are talking a plot where some force or power is going to quite literally "destroy the world", be it by eradicating the race of said character (whether they are good or evil) or something along those lines then an evil character stands just as much to lose as a good character.

What would make the difference is the choices made along up to that point. And obviously his goals for "saving the world" would be motivated by self survival or what could be gained by doing so.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know - this is an excuse game devs use to make a linear plot identical for both evil and good characters :D

I suspect I'm starting digging too deep, but this again comes from that "good vs evil" black-and-white, heaven-vs-hell constant nonsense. Life is never like that. Lets take "Lord of the Rings" trilogy as an example. Another "if the hero fails, the Darkness will consume the World as we know it" classical story. I remember reading a novel (can't remember the name, though... sorry) that took another approach to what has happened then. Mordor was a state that took a technological path - they've stopped relying on magic in their everyday life and started replacing it with technology. Now this was something that wizards could not allow to happen - so they claimed Sauron to be an incarnation of evil itself and Mordor being a "rogue state" - and declared a war. The history "as we know it" has been written by those who won, as usual. Now, this looks much more real.

So... back to our games. FO2 always ends up with you destroying the oil rig and freeing the world of the Enclave threat. IMO much more realistic good-vs-evil dilemma should be close to that:
1) "Good" character ends up being someone who is known for his heroic deeds later but not being highly praised by everyone in his times. Jesus was not exactly the hero in his time, if you remember. People are not usually thankful for good deeds. As a compensation, you may get a story about your place in history, for example, in the end. FO1 ending is excellent in this sense. The story of a good character would be the story of giving without waiting for something in return. The hero becomes an outcast. Brilliant, FO1. Just like it happens in real life a lot of times.

2) "Evil" character strives for personal advantage. FO2 ending with evil character should be something like taking over the Enclave, not destroying it. Using all you have to gain power, step by step. Character becomes a dictator of the western coast in the end - trying to end the chaos he/she observed during all travels. And this would not be a last minute decision like dialog choice: "1) press the button to start self-destruction sequence 2) press the button to take over the rig". Getting to the point of having enough power to not only destroy Enclave, but to take over it would requite a long path, full of blood (sometimes not that innocent one), backstabbing and so on.

Uh... I suppose I understood that I just couldn't find what I wanted so I've started ranting. Hope nobody minds :)
 
pipboy-x11 said:
fa2241 said:
1. Planescape Torment
2. The Witcher
Click to expand...

I was referring to PS:T when talked about the "sale your loyal follower into slavery". Evil character in PS:T seems to be just a psychotic paranoid type. I'm looking for something closer to a "charming villain" type... like Mr. Zorg from "5th Element" movie. Something more believable.

The Witcher is probably worthy of a second look, though. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Its hard to say it with the Witcher though as playing with the Elfes and Order of the flaming rose ... cant say which one was a true evil or true good organisation. In the end probably the Witcher is a setting where you dont have really that much pure good vs absolutely bad choices (if we leave out the smaller quests and the one or other dialogue).

As long you dont get a real choice to side with the vilains its really more a game where you follow your own motivations which can be of course selfish ones. Regarding that I have to say I liked the setting in the The Witcher for that as it gave me a bit more of a realistic feeling regarding the world and its characters. But thats just my oppinion.
 
Witcher is a game without a real good side. You can be netural or side with these pricks or those pricks. But in the end you may be a selfish arse but you are not not evil, just another prick, fucking up a fucked word.

Bioware games on the other hand (Kotor, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, ME2) force you to be the good guy. you can be the gentleman or the roughneck but in the end you are on the side of the angels.

Kotor 2 had a bit more leeway on this. Coupled with Arcanum, they are probably the only (recent) rpgs that let you walk the dark paths for your own sake.

The german based RPGs (Drakenstag, Divinity, Risen, Gotic) also chain you to the good side. You can act like a prick but at the end of the day you are doing the good deeds.
 
Crni Vuk, cronicler, others - thanks for the discussion we're having :) I've decided to start playing The Witcher after all - I remember liking the book a lot, so I assumed the game won't be bad either. So far I like it (I'm in the chapter One). The absence of that boring good-vs-evil thing is probably just enough... I had to get rid of that Bioware-specific taste in my mouth :D I like how the devs kept the book's atmosphere and Gerald's attitude - he is mostly neutral and just doesn't give a rats ass to anything unless he paid. At last, something refreshing.
 
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