Anyone else hate the Nostalgia Argument?

Jogre

So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Pretty much, any time you show any preference of the originals over the newer games, there will always be someone who says "Oh that's just Nostalgia", "You need to take off your nostalgia goggles"

Like, you can't seriously argue that the older games in a series are better than the newer ones without someone saying "Oh that's just the Nostalgia", and giving you a list of reasons why it's better.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that different people have different tastes in games?, And maybe I am a "Nostalgic Hipster" but does that make my argument any less valid?, Are these people so certain that new>old that they won't even consider argument otherwise valid?

Anyone else hate the Nostalgia argument?
 
I certainly don't agree with it.

Let me give my perspective when I was a growing gamer.
There just hasn't been a seriously good big name RPG in a long while in the west. That died when Black Isle went under. I was never around for any of the Ultima stuff or the early entries of TES. So I can't give you my opinion on that. I was also a fairly late-comer to the Fallout series, although I was young enough to have played the Deus Ex game of the year edition, back when you still bought games in a box, so I definitely saw the ads.

So here it is.
I don't consider Bioware RPG's using the Infinity Engine immediately after that period to be good. Just mostly "okay." And more and more action and shooter elements got introduced over time. RPG's have been dumbed down and consolized. And the real edgy hipsters are the ones complaining about that, but refusing to apply that belief to their contemporary RPG's. Mass Effect 1 was alright. I haven't since had the slightest inclination to play its sequels. Close minded? Maybe. But then again, I've played both KOTOR games and Jade Empire, so I have a pretty solid understanding of Bioware's formula by this point.

There are few Japanese exceptions of good RPG's. Disagaea's turn-based tactical RPG's are a good example. The Persona series is pretty good for an RPG-lite rolled into dating sim. And even then, the Digital Demon purists think Persona is just the dumbed-down mass market version of the hardcore main brand. But it's pretty novel if you're not used to visual novel or dating sim conventions. There's also the Demon Souls series if you're counting action RPG's, with a lot more emphasis on atmosphere and minimalistic plot.

In the west, I'll also probably point to Path of Exile as a good ARPG Diablo-like. But besides that and maybe a couple of Kickstarter RPG's? It's a drought out there. There aren't a lot of big "pure" RPG's at all.
KOTOR 2 and Fallout New Vegas showed glimmers of the full potential of storytelling in games.

I'll probably annoy the shit out of every Bethesda and Bioware fan, but I am going to compare your game to Baldur's Gate 2. I'm going to do it incessantly. Also, remember when I mentioned Deus Ex? I'm also comparing anything action you inject into an RPG to Deus Ex. They both set a lot of conventions for those genres, and frankly, did them a lot better than a lot of triple-A shlock. Your sandbox is sterile bullshit when I'm turning over rocks and opening secret doors in the world map of BG 2 and then stumbling over side quests. Both games encouraged exploration. Genuine meaningful exploration.

This whole sandbox Minecraft thing has caught on like a bad rash. Because while so many developers promise robust open world and emergent gameplay, the result always feels rather thin. Or it's just an excuse to bait dollars on Steam through Early Access.
 
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It is a total assumption about someone's reasons for their preference, regardless of whether it happens to be true, and you know what they say about assumptions.
 
Nostalgia is when I fondly remember watching Buck Rogers, Airwolf, Battlestar Galactica, and the A-Team as a child. I felt nostalgia for the original X-COM when the reboot came out. When Fallout 4 came out, I also felt nostalgia for the older games in the series. Unlike all the rest of the things I remember, however, I can and did replay both FO 1 and 2 after FO4 came out. Some things weather time better than others.
 
Nostalgia bias? Good thing I'm not deterred by it, seeing as I was born in the late nineties and didn't play Fallout New Vegas until only half a decade ago! Oh wait. New Vegas is still well-written, and Fallout 4 is still crap. Guess that nostalgia thing doesn't work out for this argument after all. Wait, is that not how nostalgia works? Whoops.

:smug::smug::smug::smug:

Alright, in serious terms, the "being nostalgic impairs your judgement" can be true in many cases. But just like every other point in existence, "being [X] impairs your judgement" has been used to derail arguments in this era so often that you can't use it genuinely anymore, along with being racist, being sexist, being left-wing, being right-wing, being rich, being poor, being an atheist, being a theist, or if you're not any of the things I mentioned, being a hipster for not fitting into normal categories.

The chances of someone saying "you just like it because nostalgia" genuinely, and not just to derail your argument, is about one in a million.

It's an excuse against good arguments, used when trolls are desperate.

Hey, if it's a newer game, they can always bring up the "you're judging it too quickly" or the "it gets better over time" card. :roll:

It's as dumb as the religious arguments - wipe away every religion existing today, and sooner or later in the new world, someone's going to found a new religion and someone else is going to use it for their own gains or to justify their actions. Sooner or later, people will find an excuse. It's practically a signature of the human race at this point.
 
Too true. I can see Nostalgia as an issue when breaking a subject down and the person refuses to accept the issues the critique offers, but when a person breaks down a game, compares the older games to the new in the series and notices the older games actually being superior in their specific genre, but then gets a quick label of "Nostalgic Hipster" from others, you know they're trolls. There's no other way around it. Two things come to mind when the person quickly labels it as Nostalgia:

1. They're either flipping out because you've done a constructive, well written critique of the modern game of a series and will quickly try to derail the argument/debate/subject by using ad hominem to claim victory.

2. They think you're easy prey by using ad hominem in hopes you'll break down and ragequit/give up, basically joining in on the bandwagon not for the game, but for pure shits and giggles.

And just like Zigzag said, they have many other cards up their sleeve to troll the shit out of you. No idea how to prevent this, though my guess is to prod the person first of their opinions and evaluate from there if they're worth wasting oxygen to increase their intelligence on a genre.
 
Yes. It is a fallacy that can never be a valid argument mostly because 99% of the time, it is use in this context: "hurr de derp!!1 your opinion is invalid because it does not match minez!"

EDIT: In all seriousness, though, this argument would actually have substance to it if people were not self-entitled, stupid cunts on the internet, and would actually back up their perspectives instead of projecting them on to others as if they are suddenly the most important people in the world. "Nostalgia goggles" gets thrown around everywhere like a goddamn dodgeball, even when it is not even remotely applicable. "Hurp pe derp pe derp!!1, youz only lik this game/show/movie because you grew with it!1" Morons... just everywhere, no matter where I go. I could go on and on about everything wrong with this "nostalgia-blinded" nonsense, if I had the time...
 
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To ask for quality or to admit that something was done better in the past, isn't nostalgia though, and anyone with half a brain should understand that, fan or not.

I think the issue actually is that the people which use it as argument against you, simply don't know what nostalgia actually means.
According to a random dictionary, (...)Today, it describes a bittersweet longing for the past. A somewhat accurate describtion in my opinion.

This is however, not the case when you have the oportunity to compare two products or features and directly side by side. And eventually come to the conclussion, that product A, despite of it's age, is doing something better.
For example, a 50 year old high quality iron pan can be effectively better compared to a new 5 dollar cheap teflon coated pan from wall-mart. Kitchen ware in particular, shows quite often how the old stuff, can last a life time AND work better in preparing meals.
It really depends what you're comparing really. And there can be no doubts that Fallout 1 and 2 are the better role playing games if you compare just that with Fallout 4.

So new is not inherently a sign of quality.
 
"Nostalgia glasses"... I always take them to be as "I praise the older games because I haven't played them in a while".

It's not nostalgia if I played them today and I enjoyed them. I don't think there's such thing as "nostalgia" in the sense of "you play a bad game only because you liked it as a child", I don't think anyone purposedly puts himself/herself in front of a screen to play a bad game just because of memories.

I think Super Mario is a pretty cool game, when you think about it, it has everything that makes modern cellphone games addictive. It's a formula that was the norm then, and is the norm today for flash games, for example.

The funny thing of the line is when you played the game last year for the first time, like Morrowind in my case.
 
Well, as many already explained, there is a difference between liking something just because it's from the old days - take for example the idea of man-only student fraternities, or if you like something simply because it is good!
Good gameplay, like good design, is still good, no matter if it is 1 or 50 years old, hence why it always comes back after some time, the so called timeless classic. Hence why you see so often cell phone games copying old platformers, just like you said, similar to Super Mario, Tetris or what ever. And you have this with many things, not just games, but also movies, music and books. Certain ideas or concepts have simply proven themself.
 
Good gameplay, like good design, is still good, no matter if it is 1 or 50 years old, hence why it always comes back after some time, the so called timeless classic. Hence why you see so often cell phone games copying old platformers, just like you said, similar to Super Mario, Tetris or what ever. And you have this with many things, not just games, but also movies, music and books. Certain ideas or concepts have simply proven themself.

Exactly.

Another thing I use to do is to compare games based on the context they are released. For example, had Fallout 4 been released at exactly the same time as Fallout 1, there's no doubt that it would have been far more remembered than Fallout 1. The problem, however, is that Fallout was launched in 2015, and if you were to ask anyone in 1997 what would they hope a Fallout 4 game played like in 2015, what we ended up getting is nowhere near to that potential description.

That's why I feel a lot of "great" games released in the past years just don't live up to the reasonable expectations one could have about them. It feels like we keep playing the same games but only with prettier graphics lately, case in point (and a franchise I know well): Gran Turismo. It blew my mind at the beginning, but even with the fancy graphics of the latest entry (6), I still think Gran Turismo 4 was the best GT game based on year of release.

Fallout is in desperate need of someone who can make it live up to the its name and year of release, and I think only Obsidian can give us that, provided they get enough time (4 years or 5) to make the game.
 
It's not nostalgia if I played them today and I enjoyed them. I don't think there's such thing as "nostalgia" in the sense of "you play a bad game only because you liked it as a child", I don't think anyone purposedly puts himself/herself in front of a screen to play a bad game just because of memories.

The thing is, when people purposefully puts themselves in front of a bad game because of the memories, they don't notice it. That's why so many people will consider "nostalgia" a valid argument. It's not something you can realise on your own.
 
I like what I like, and I don't apologize for it insofar as it doesn't involve doing anything illegal, unethical, or destructive.

My nostalgia for older games might be something that other people invoke when considering whether my opinion of a game should inform theirs, but pointing out that I am fond of the games I have fond memories of doesn't exactly do anything to get me to reconsider those feelings.

Everybody just needs to get in the habit of reading "x is better than y" as "I like x more than I like y" and start interrogating the reasons people like what they like, rather than refuting people's subjective valuation of entertainment. I mean, I like Fallout 2 a lot more than I like Fallout 4, and telling me that this is a wrong opinion is a waste of everyone's time.
 
I was born in the same year that Fallout 1 came out. I didn't play my first fallout game for until 12 years after the release of the original, and didn't play the Black Isle games until the 18th anniversary of Fallout 1 coming out. My gaming nostalgia isn't stirred by isometric, top-down RPGs - it's rekindled by PS2 platformers like Jak & Daxter: The Precursor Legacy, and Klonoa 2. Therefore, when I had my wildly positive opinion on Fallout 3 completely inverted last year, it wasn't because of an inherent emotional bias, forged back in the 'good old days', when high-definition and virtual-reality were far-off, even alien, concepts. However, when I realised that Fallout 1 and 2 had managed to completely destroy my appreciation for Bethesda's 2007 reboot, I could see why the 'nostalgia argument' has been so popular amongst their detractors. These two games are so strongly atmospheric, so wonderfully magical in their respective existences, that it is difficult not to feel like a child again when playing them.

I can only compare the experience of being introduced to the original Fallouts as similar to watching the original Star Wars trilogy. Not necessarily in the formulas of their stories (although I would argue that there are some clear base similarities), but more so in the palpable endlessness of their respective universes, only eluded to in passing dialogue, on the lips of bar patrons and mercenaries, in radio transmission transcriptions and computer terminal records. This is where the word 'magical' comes to mind; I can't think of any other games, or films, that have elicited that sort of emotional response from me. This is where I draw the comparison of playing the original Fallouts to that set of emotions which we call 'Nostalgia'. That warm, fuzzy feeling we get when thinking about something that is embedded so deeply into our subconscious as a perfect event or happening, that we can only look back in delight that we had the pleasure of experiencing it.

Of course, certain works of literature have, and continue to, provoke this set of emotions from me. In contrast to screen-based mediums, though, the beauty of the novel is that it requires the reader to use their imagination, to construct worlds and forge emotional ties with the fictional, due to lack of pictorial aid. For an art form founded on visuals to accomplish this feat is something altogether more spectacular. It is so easy for developers or directors to simply present us with a complete product, something which we find no need to engage with at a deeper level, because we are given their vision, and no means with which to expand upon it. This is where Fallout 1, and its sequel, differ.

To return to my comparison of the original Fallouts with the original Star Wars films, let me refer to the beginnings of each protagonist in the respective franchises, and why their humble beginnings reinforce the 'magical' atmosphere of the games. Luke Skywalker is a farmboy plucked from total obscurity to save the galaxy, seemingly by chance. The Vault Dweller of Fallout 1 is found in a very similar situation at the start; an everyman/woman picked at random by the Overseer of Vault 13 to venture out into the wasteland and find a replacement water chip for his now debilitated home. The player begins life as the Chosen One of Fallout 2 in a likewise position, to an extent, although he/she has the almost god-like status of being Arroyo's saviour after being 'chosen' in the Temple of Trials, in the game's opening salvo. However, the Chosen One is still thrust from mundanity into adventure. In the video game medium, it is important that the player feels connected to the character, much like the viewer does to Luke in Star Wars. Both iconic series achieve this by positioning their heroes in the same place as their heroes; not only are they naive outsiders to the world that they embark on discovering, but they also have countless questions, the same as the player does, about their surrounding world. 'Where can I find a water chip?', asks the Vault Dweller to a small-town security guard, whilst the player's eyes dart of his uniform, the local shops, the damaged roads. 'Where can I find a GECK?', asks the Chosen One, to a local town crier, before being racially abused for his 'tribal' ways, as the player is already considering what other racial rifts may be prominent in the society that they have been presented with. '[R2] mentioned something about Obi-Wan... I wonder if he meant Old Ben?' asks Luke Skywalker, as the viewer intently watches for the reactions of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, hoping for clues to R2's quest, and how Luke is tied into everything. Much like its use in Star Wars, the provocation of curiosity from the player in the original Fallouts serves the same purpose; to build worlds, and to inspire use of imagination.

In turn, this creates an organic, sprawling in-game universe, one that is consistently built upon, right up until - and even after - the Vault Dweller encounters The Master for the last time. By coaxing the player into actively participating in the creation of their Wasteland, Tim Fargo and his team spawned millions of unique universes, none of which were or will be totally alike. Each player has something to treasure, to remember. This is why defenders of the original series may seem so entrenched in what some mislabel as 'nostalgia'. They are not nostalgic, they are just so staunchly defensive of something that is theirs, and only theirs, that it becomes impossible to trade it in for someone else's vision, which is what Bethesda attempted to do in 2007, and in 2015.

My immediate response to the argument that 'Original Fallout players are just nostalgic, and can't move on from the past' would be 'yes'. We are blinded by nostalgia. Or, at least, I would admit to calling my feelings for Fallout 1 and 2 'nostalgic'. However, I finished Fallout 2 5 months ago, and Fallout 1 only 3 months before that. That is not long enough to develop truly nostalgic feelings, let alone about games that were released just after I was born. We seem nostalgic and perhaps blind to the arguments of detractors regarding the superiority of the originals not because we are wrapped up in a warm blanket of happy memories and the safety of the past, but because Bethesda's attempts at Fallout worldbuilding have totally failed the player, in the same way that Fallout 1 and 2 resolutely succeeded. In the lo-fi, isometrically presented desert sands of post-apocalypse California, any player can create their own Wasteland. The characters might have the same names, but in the mind of every person to have played the original Fallouts, you will find different interpretations and visions of every environment, every NPC, every possible thought process one could take, to decide how they would carve their legacy into Tim Fargo's marvellous post-apocalyptic fantasy. Just like we all have our own version of Luke Skywalker dearest to our hearts, so do we have unique Vault Dwellers and Chosen Ones. That is truly magical.

And if magic doesn't elicit the same emotions as nostalgia, then, what does?
 
Wow, great write up and analysis.

Please do stay and comment on our (sometimes circle jerking) views of Fallout.

It was about 3AM when I finished writing that so there are some grammatical errors/other issues with the piece because I was too tired to proof-read it, but thanks! I felt like I needed to get it out on here. I love these forums, and hate that people only see this community as poisonous - the poison comes from a place of love, because Bethesda's games are such failures. But yes, I am around for the long haul!
 
It was about 3AM when I finished writing that so there are some grammatical errors/other issues with the piece because I was too tired to proof-read it, but thanks! I felt like I needed to get it out on here. I love these forums, and hate that people only see this community as poisonous - the poison comes from a place of love, because Bethesda's games are such failures. But yes, I am around for the long haul!

Hey, I commented on your post in Reddit (Sigourn here), and as it was to be expected, people reacted like they always do: "nostalgia", "people can't accept change", and so on...
 
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