Are the Brotherhood of Steel ambiguously good or evil?

T

Tarantulakelurk

First time out of the vault
I know, they're not waving the flag with a giant smiley face on it, they're not kissing babies, and holding doors open for old ladies, but they seem like halfway decent people...
But I hear some people ranting at length on why they hate them! To me, at the worst they were just rude, elitist jerks, not actual villains that try to antagonize you for the evulz...
 
It depends, i would see them as morally grey, with the potential of being very dark, if the current high elder is leaning toward the most dark aspects of their codex, and the potential of being very light if the high elder is willing to take liberties with the codex.
 
I actually liked the High Elder in the first Fallout. It seemed as if he was attempting to keep strict to the "codex" laid down by the Brotherhood of Steel's founding fathers, but also knew he couldn't let mutants rampage all over the fucking world. Maybe, we can say he was being an asshole and only bothered to help you with the mutant problem because he feared the destruction of his own organization. Or, we can say that at this point he really did try to reach a helping hand out toward the wasteland.

We see more of this after the events of the first Fallout and a little bit after the second Fallout. The Brotherhood of Steel becomes more and more open toward communities, even opening branches up in the major cities of California Wastes. Sure, we could also say here that they are just "spying on the people". But after the NCR fully comes to power in California, the Brotherhood of Steel seems to go work more closely with them, even going as far as to offer technical assistance with their shit and become a sort of "technological-adviser" toward the New California Republic government. However, we know this all eventually ended. The Brotherhood of Steel IS STILL the Brotherhood of Steel, and they still have their codex to live by. When they see the NCR taking high-grade pre-war weaponry and throwing it toward their military (something the BOS was created to combat in the first place, people using advanced technology against other people), of course they are going to step in and say, "What the fuck?"

And we see them even more unwilling to help people in the events of New Vegas, and even more direct toward holding only military technologies, and technologies that generally benefit the population. But the New California Republic pushed them toward this point. They tried to throw in their own two-cents, and the NCR didn't want it unless the Brotherhood was agreeing to be their puppets, and they weren't having that shit. So I figured, they probably just adopted a "fuck them" attitude, went into hiding, and completely separated themselves with the outside world. I mean, yeah, this can't all be blamed on the NCR, it was shitty leadership on their part, but there goes the saying "You can only push a man so far...."
 
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I had always liked the BoS being a R&D development house/major player in NCR politics idea/ending (the politics thing is my personal addition). Like going into the military industrial complex/secret societies direction, the BoS simply makes itself too valuable to ignore and too strong to overcome through its technology and political clout. They start off infiltrating all levels of the fledgling NCR government through various means, primarily through science and military channels. Eventually, the current elder 'serves' as the primary adviser to the president in all things scientific. He also has a powerful vote in military matters but only if any NCR campaign requires BoS military support (as the BoS makes it clear that although they will not actively go against the republic, it will retain its own command structure, seperate from NCR).
 
The BOS can go very dark or very light depending on who's in charge and his point of view in the codex, if he enforces the codex we have a dark light upon them or if he ignores the codex/ change it we have a bright light upon them.
 
BigBoss said:
When they see the NCR taking high-grade pre-war weaponry and throwing it toward their military (something the BOS was created to combat in the first place, people using advanced technology against other people), of course they are going to step in and say, "What the fuck?"

And we see them even more unwilling to help people in the events of New Vegas, and even more direct toward holding only military technologies, and technologies that generally benefit the population. But the New California Republic pushed them toward this point. They tried to throw in their own two-cents, and the NCR didn't want it unless the Brotherhood was agreeing to be their puppets, and they weren't having that shit. So I figured, they probably just adopted a "fuck them" attitude, went into hiding, and completely separated themselves with the outside world. I mean, yeah, this can't all be blamed on the NCR, it was shitty leadership on their part, but there goes the saying "You can only push a man so far...."
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That's really not what happened..... at all. The NCR didn't "push" the Brotherhood, the Brotherhood rose up in open rebellion against the NCR and the NCR responded. One (unnamed) High Elder was open to the idea of working with the NCR, and that's where their partnership sprung from. They helped the NCR go from a fledgling country into a powerful post apocalyptic super power, and the NCR held that state for several years while the BOS remained in full partnership at their side. It was only after a new High Elder took the mantle and decided that the technology in possession of the NCR warranted violent action that the civil war broke out. Just like Maxson II underestimating the Vipers and dying for his hubris, Jeremy Maxson made the mistake of underestimating the NCR and assumed the superior-outfitted BOS would swat them aside and claim all of their tech, costing the Brotherhood impending extinction for his hubris.

Emperor said:
The BOS can go very dark or very light depending on who's in charge and his point of view in the codex, if he enforces the codex we have a dark light upon them or if he ignores the codex/ change it we have a bright light upon them.
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It's not as cut-and-dry as enforcing or ignoring the codex that determines the BOS's shade of grey. As Veronica points out, it's all up to HOW the Codex is interpreted, and if "protecting mankind" is taken to mean guarding them then they will guard them, but if "protecting mankind" is taken to mean prohibiting them then they will intervene... often with force. Few of the Elders reached their station through "ignoring" the Codex, and the only one we know of who did so was Elijah, but hew as a radical, and far-removed from ANYTHING that most of the Brotherhood did. He was an Elder from a Scribe, which was unusual. He was obsessed with technological utility, which wasn't what the order tended towards. As different as Elijah was from most traditions of the BOS, he was ALSO the singularly most dangerous person alive that ever came from the Brotherhood. So "ignoring the Codex" doesn't mean you come away feeling light-hearted and generous. It's all about the interpretation.

As far as the question of the topic itself, the Brotherhood is a shade of grey. They're a well meaning organization with a dark streak of bigotry and xenophobia. By 2242, the biggest difference between the Brotherhood and the Enclave wasn't how evil one was compared to the other, but how much of a threat one was and how little of a threat the other posed. It's a mistake to assume that any of the Brotherhood chapters were "universally good", or that the organization as a whole was a greyish shade of white. The BOS was a varying darkness as light at all times. As the Courier put it, it would be unwise to wave a plasma rifle in front of them, but they were otherwise an okay sort.
 
The BoS i would call grey mainly because if u dont have tech, they dont bother nor aid u if they arent in danger. Though if u did have tech u would view them as evil.
that was my impression from the first 2 games. The BoS in FONV, that chapter i woukd view as a "nuetral evil" mainly because of what happened to the FotA and the ending slides of people turned to goo if they didnt hand over their tech when mugged.
 
They have the potential of being outright evil, if misguided enough.
But still, you can grant them that most of them don't want to control the whole world.
 
I would say

Fo1: Loyal neutral or chaotic good.
(they don't want to get too much involve, but they are still a good faction that help defeat threats to the areas, like the Unity or the Vipers)

Fo2: Strict Neutral
(their only involvement is about getting vertibird blueprint and cheering the chosen one for no reason. They do nothing else)

FoT: Between Lawfull good and Lawfull Evil depending of your actions.
(dictatorial anyway, with a good or bad agenda)

Fo3: Loyal Good for Lyon & Lawfull neutral for Casdin.
(Lyon would save everyone for free. Casdin refuses to get involved and follow the codex. He isn't evil)

FoNV: Between Lawfull good & Neutral Evil depending of your actions.
(from Mojave protectors to raiders that would attack anyone for tech. Can't be chaotic Evil, as they still follow a set of rules that came from good intentions.)
 
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They're a bunch of useless cowards for the most part in Fallout 1 and 2... They were always "in the rear with the gear". In Fallout they're evil at first, they send outsiders to their death as a joke. In Fallout 2 they have some of the best gear ingame, and bunkers in many towns... but they do NOTHING. Time for another quote... "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
 
Unless it's the Messiah level FO3 BOS I think they are pretty much grey.
Like said before different interpretations of the codex and leadership can sway them to more dark or light acts but for the most parts they stay pretty neutral.
 
Vergil said:
Unless it's the Messiah level FO3 BOS I think they are pretty much grey.
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This. I think one of the major themes of the Fallout franchise is that categories like "good" and "evil" can't really be applied to human societies, even if we qualify them with "ambiguous". There are just many different shades of grey.

But if we have to describe them with D&D alignments, I would say the Brotherhood as a group are Lawful Neutral - they simply do whatever the Law (the Codex) says. If that's seen as being "good" by the rest of wasteland, well, so be it; if it's seen as being evil, or even if it results in marching the Brotherhood to obsolescence and extinction (as implied in New Vegas), so be it as well. Individual members, of course, may have differing alignment (FO1's Vault Dweller, FO3's BOS, Elijah, Veronica and Christine in FONV).

Overall I would say the Brotherhood as an organization is woefully out of touch at their best, and simply a paranoid, xenophobic anachronism at worst. The age of hiding out in bunkers and waiting for the rubble to stop bouncing has been over for centuries in the Fallout universe; arguably we never even saw a time period when this made sense as a survival strategy, since even by FO1 we had complex, well established post-apocalyptic societies.

They are largely useful as having a stockpile of powerful toys for a powerful, world-changing figure (i.e. Vault Dweller, Chosen One, etc) who seems to emerge once every few generations, but even then this figure probably winds up using them in ways the organization doesn't necessarily approve of.
 
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