Armor & Inventory system

[PaladinHeart]

First, if there's a lot of food in the game then why not implement a hunger system? Basically a system that would force you to use up resources if you wanted to heal via resting. (that free health should cost you in one way or another). Don't make it annoying though. I mean if you hardly ever rest anywhere then you shouldn't have to eat but every so often (more like Ultima Underworld than Sims).

Also, I have been thinking that they should improve on the armor system. We already know weapons will deteriorate over time and you'll have to either repair them or use parts from other weapons to fix them. So if armor and clothing loses durability as well, then I think the damage should visibly show on your character. The condition of your clothing should also have an impact on how well your charisma and social skills such as speech and barter work. Like if your clothing is above 75% condition, then you'll get a small bonus, but if it drops below 25% and you're left with just tatters of your original vault suit, then there should be a significant decrement to how people treat you. Of course, some people shouldn't care (such as tribals). Also, when the condition reaches 0% the armor or clothing should turn into unwearable (but useful) rags, leather, metal debris, etc.. depending on the item. Then these resources could be used to repair future clothing / armor.

Now, as for inventory, I think it would be nice if any particular object could used, according to its properties. Like if you see a loose board, you should be able to pick it up and use it as a club. And it would eventually break of course. See that rock? Okay. I want to be able to pick it up and throw it at someone or something. Okay, another option should include being able to combine the rock with the piece of wood using tape, leather straps, whatever. Now depending on how good the rock is attached, the club can be used to launch it farther and/or harder, or you've pretty much got an improved club (although the rock would very likely, and easily, drop off). It would also be interesting if we could find some nails, and use said rock to hammer them into the board.

I want to elaborate on the inventory system with another example or two. Let's say the player wants to do something crazy, like glue some C4 to the end of his weapon and hit someone/something with it. Okay. Let the player do that. xD But also let them remove it if they see the error of their thinking. You mentioned something about using explosives and bottle caps to make a shrapnel bomb. Why not use other objects too? Or maybe instead of that? How about something crazy? Hey I've got 5 spare handguns. Why not throw them in there? And a few rounds of ammo. An extra grenade.. there, now the lunch box is packed full. Oh! Let's top that off and use this old piece of chalk to draw a smiley face on the lunch box..

I know these are some wild ideas but I've been very disappointed in all the so-called "next gen" games. Most of them are just dumbed down versions of older games that require an UBER system to run the game simply because it has (arguably) nice graphics. I've played through both Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, and Heavenly Sword. Both games left me with an empty feeling. I think it's time to improve something beyond just the visuals...

Oh. Another thing I noticed.. the death gibs. In your screenshots the only parts left of the skull seem to be the eyeballs and a mandible of some sort. I think each character's head should have a different exploding animation. And yes, it would be cool if our evil characters could have a skull collection, from the various fictims they've slain. Maybe even sew them into the armor, or better yet, have some bone armor. But there should be even more uses for corpses. Not to mention that a bloody corpse should attract animals that would want to eat it. Maybe even have a mutant crow occasionally swoop down for the eyeballs (and other tasty giblets).

I know. Crazy ideas. But to me a next gen game that simply does more of the same old stuff, but with better graphics, is pretty much a joke.. We might as well just replay the 90's games.

 

[Ravager69]

And how about the need to care for your PC's feelings? You know, keep thinking positive, less you become emo.

Or make ammo for the grenade launcher from toilet paper, which you can later shoot on the remains of the White House. OF COURSE you'd get some free toilet water for it or another possibility to nuke some shithole like Megaton. Cool reward is a must have.

 

[PaladinHeart]

No. I don't want to have to deal with feelings. Just hunger and possibly thirst, to counter the "free healing" that Bethesda often implements in their games via resting. There should be some cost (other than time).

The TP thing sounds weird.. Could a grenade launcher technically fire something like that? It seems doubtful. Useless too, considering it wouldn't do any damage.. launching radioactive waste onto someone might be more useful though. xD

(and yes I do realize your post was a sarcastic jab at making fun of the original post I made)

I'd also like to point out that it would be interesting if you could load the wrong ammo types, and therefore cause some.. rather bad results. xD You know, it would be pretty obvious which types would fit which guns, but I think it should be possible to take a bullet out of a clip, and say.. load it into a shotgun. I know this would result in having to learn which ammo types go in which guns (or they could simply have it in the item's description) but it would be fun IMO. I mean imagine being able to have random bullets that you have NO idea what gun they go to, so you just use them up in some kind of explosive device (for more boom).

This could also make the intelligence factor and skills more useful, since the item descriptions could be more elaborate on which ammo types it takes, and an intelligent character could also have a warning come up like "This ammo type isn't designed to fit this gun. Are you sure you want to do this?" With the little box you can uncheck if you don't want future reminders.

 

[Ravager69]

No offense, I see you have some cool ideas, but they're useless in any way. Why would I have the ability to hurt or kill myself? Time wasted on any of this could be spent on improving other areas of gameplay. Considering how shitty the games made nowadays are because of the lack of time, I don't think there is a need to implement any of this.

As for free healing system....Fallout had it too. Both. Even Tactics had it. D&D games had it (BG, NWN). There are things that should be easy to do in a game, least the player will face extremely hard to solve situations or will plainly get pissed because of all the meaningless things he'd need to do (Spirit Bar for exemple, which was in the NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer). Chores aren't needed at all. Options to do stuff that has no impact on the game aren't either. Even if they're "cool".

BTW this kind of reasoning is pretty similar to the people from Bethesda (hope you won't hate me for this).

 

[Sorrow]

As for free healing system....Fallout had it too. Both. Even Tactics had it. D&D games had it (BG, NWN). There are things that should be easy to do in a game, least the player will face extremely hard to solve situations or will plainly get pissed because of all the meaningless things he'd need to do (Spirit Bar for exemple, which was in the NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer). Chores aren't needed at all.

Finding food and water isn't meaningless, especially in environment where food and water isn't easily obtainable. It can be added without making the game a chore and would have a huge impact on game balance and role-playing. Having to carry a full kit (water, food, sleeping mat, etc.) would take away tens of pounds from character's carrying capacity and buying food would cost money.
Fallout had its thirst encounters and scripts suggest that they attempted to make a food system for Fallout 2.

 

[Ravager69]

Maybe so, but I surely don't want any of this. It is a GAME after all. I want to play it at my own pace, without having to worry about water and food all the time (at all, really). Such things are a bother in real life and I'd like to forget about them, if only for a time.

Besides, as I said, such things only take time that could be otherwise better spent on the really important things, like improving mechanics, removing bugs, adding some background to the story etc. Nowadays (also before, but now it is even worse) game companies are having impossible to keep time limit for each game, so time is important resource.

 

[Sorrow]

Maybe so, but I surely don't want any of this. It is a GAME after all.

Being a game has nothing to do with food and water. Have you ever played Exile?

Such things are a bother in real life and I'd like to forget about them, if only for a time.

Having to earn money is a bother in real life and I'd like to forget about it, if only for a time. I want all weapons and armour for free .

 

[Ravager69]

But you fail to make a point. There are things that make a game challenging and things that make a game annoying.

Gathering money is challenging, because you can do it when and where you want (if the game gives you enough freedom), at your own pace, plus you needn't do it all the time. Additionaly, money is a form of reward for the player and turns the wheels of gameplay.

Eating and drinking is annoying, because no matter where you go or what you do, you need it. Maybe Exile had it done nicely (sorry, haven't played it), but it introduces nothing important to the game, except for some realism.

 

[Sorrow]

But you fail to make a point. There are things that make a game challenging and things that make a game annoying.

You being annoyed by having to think about buying water/food before journey doesn't mean that it makes game inherently annoying.

Eating and drinking is annoying, because no matter where you go or what you do, you need it. Maybe Exile had it done nicely (sorry, haven't played it), but it introduces nothing important to the game, except for some realism.

Sounds escapist to me.

Food and water is just another resource that limits/increases your possibilities and interacts with your skills. For example, if you go to a military base that is in a desert 10 days away from a closest city, you need to take enough food and water or rely on your survival skills - which means that you are either going to carry a lot of supplies in your backpack or you will have to invest some skill points in the Outdoorsman skill or even pick a surival-related perk, which changes the way you develop character.
If you will take a lot of supplies, then it's possible that when you'll get to the base you won't be able to take much loot.

That's a lot of consequences besides "some realism".

 

[PaladinHeart]

It was very well done in the old Ultima Underworld games. You don't really have to eat all that often unless you rest a lot (to heal and/or regain mana). As mentioned, yes it adds to the challenge of the gameplay because you have to use up valuable space to store the food.

It's no more of an inconvenience than having to carry ammo for your guns. I think being able to carry a bag of 10 apples is just as spiffy as carrying a bag of 10 clips. If you think having to deal with food is annoying then surely you think ammo is annoying too, and would thus like to have unlimited ammunition.

If you take away all the things that might be annoying, like say.. RPG stats, inventory, carry weight, all that stuff, then you end up with a cheesy console title.

Oh and the "I work so long and can't play much!" argument is probably one of the reasons games are just a short flash in the pan nowadays. That would also be good enough reason for them to not bother with turn based. IMO a person's lifestyle shouldn't have an impact on how a videogame is designed. That's like saying, "Well I can only play like one hour a month so could you please make the game only last one hour?"

 

[Sorrow]

It was very well done in the old Ultima Underworld games. You don't really have to eat all that often unless you rest a lot (to heal and/or regain mana). As mentioned, yes it adds to the challenge of the gameplay because you have to use up valuable space to store the food.

I had to eat pretty often in Ultima VII XD . It wasn't a big problem though. On the other hand, I don't think that actual feeding would be good for Fallout - not with travelling on the world map. It would have to be automatic like in Exile, but with different food variations.

BTW.
I wonder how often people play a survivalist character. I don't recall playing one in last years...

 

[Ravager69]

You are twisting my words again and taking my philosophy to extreme.

I never said anything about making a game too easy (removing stats, having unlimited ammo or such non-sense, using such examples is a proof you have no real arguments).

As for the military base example - that would be goddamn annoying if I couldn't take enough loot because I'd have to carry water and food, there is already enough things I have to carry with me that limit my carry weight, why would I need more?

I'd have to go back to town, sell it or storage it and go back again to take the rest. Annoying and introduces nothing to game, plus it requires more time. It is simply a chore.

Because, the thing is, that firstly it would seem cool and everyone would praise the game for it, but after some time people would just be annoyed or bored with it.

Before - "Cool! Such realism! I need food to survive! yay!
After - "Okay....I need another x kg of food to get to the next town, now where's the goddamn merchant.....what do you mean I don't have enough money!?!? ********!!!"

 

[Sorrow]

Again, annoying for you.

Some people don't like monty haul and don't like when their characters and becoming the the richest person in the world that can't buy anything meaningful (land, political power, etc.) just because they are a cross between a mule and terminator.

 

[Ravager69]

Again, sacrificing time for such irrelevant things means distracting makers of the game from what is important.

Plus, it kills replayability - how long can it be fun to carry food with you?

 

[Sorrow]

Again, sacrificing time for such irrelevant things means distracting makers of the game from what is important.

Prove it.

Plus, it kills replayability - how long can it be fun to carry food with you?

How about exploring different choices and consequences and different character builds?
And no, introducing food doesn't kill replayability. Otherwise no one would play roguelikes.

Also, being able to go everywhere and take everything in one playtrough kills replayability more.

 

[Ravager69]

Also, being able to go everywhere and take everything in one playtrough kills replayability more.

I sure hope you're kidding. I don't think having to do the same things over and over is sooo interesting. I don't get fascinated by the sole fact that I need to visit the same place 10 times only for some loot, cash or whatever, when I want to replay the game.

As for the proof.....Bethesda is concentrating on the "cool stuff" in Fallout 3.

 

[Sorrow]

Also, being able to go everywhere and take everything in one playtrough kills replayability more.

I sure hope you're kidding. I don't think having to do the same things over and over is sooo interesting. I don't get fascinated by the sole fact that I need to visit the same place 10 times only for some loot, cash or whatever, when I want to replay the game.

Who says that you need to visit the same place 10 times and haul everything that isn't nailed to walls? Is it a MMORPG or what? Fallout is about playing a lone hero in a harsh world, not about being a Chinese farmer.

 

[Ravager69]

What? And what has that to do with the fact that food and water changes nothing in the game and can make it tiresome and boring?

 

[Sorrow]

No, it doesn't make it tiresome and boring and as you admitted it does change a lot in game. Namely changes it from monty haul where one gets absurd amounts of money into playing a lone hero that tries to survive in the wasteland and do his quest.

Also, I played a few RPGs that had a food system and it didn't have a negative impact on gameplay in any of them.

 

[JR Jansen]

No, it doesn't make it tiresome and boring .

Hold on there. He didn't say it does make it tiresome and boring. He said it CAN make it tiresome and boring. He does have a point there, you know. In most games it has one of the following outcomes.

Either it becomes a chore and you are almost always out of food (specially when that food turns bad over time. How would you know how much food you have and need if a certain amount turns bad when you are traveling ? You may, and probably will, have to spent time searching for it or go back to town to buy new supplies. Therefor it becomes a chore). No offense but this is not supposed to be a sim.

Or, it becomes pointless because their is always enough of it like in the MM games.

I do see the attraction to have a food system in a post-apoc game though. And i'm not dead set against it but in my experience, it usually turns out to be a bad thing.