Armor & Inventory system

[Sorrow]

Well, I have yet to play a cRPG game where getting food becomes annoying or "a chore", so I have no idea what you're talking about.
Actually, when I played Baldur's Gate after playing Ultima VII and ADOM, I missed food. As for food rotting over time - I've seen it in ADOM and it didn't make the game any less playable.

No offense but this is not supposed to be a sim.

So, now all RPGs that feature a food system are not only tiresome and boring, but also a sim ? Actually, Fallout had a half-assed attempt at showing the importance of water (and survival skills) - it had encounters where the character without water canteen would search for and take damage if she would fail. Sadly, the encounters were random and the armour could absorb the damage. Also, the character could take additional water from the Vault's supply room.

I do see the attraction to have a food system in a post-apoc game though. And i'm not dead set against it but in my experience, it usually turns out to be a bad thing.

Well, I think it would be interesting to see how character's motivation would change when she would need food and water to survive...
Attitude to the Vault and towns in general, for example:
Would she miss the Vault where she had all provided by Vaults food dispensers and water purification systems?
Maybe saving the Vault and returning to it would become more important when it becomes a source of comfort and safety instead of being a prison?
What is the life outside like - is danger from monsters and raiders the only disadvantage of living outside the vault?
Are Small Guns and Speech really the most important skills?
Are towns really useless enough to be eradicated without mercy?

 

[JR Jansen]

No offense but this is not supposed to be a sim.

So, now all RPGs that feature a food system are not only tiresome and boring, but also a sim ?

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that. My point was that the food system (if it is included) should not become so involved that it starts looking like a sim.

 

[Sorrow]

ADOM has a food system that includes rotting of some types of food and it certainly isn't anything like a sim.

 

[Hotel California]

Sorrow, what your suggesting is about as good an idea as the wonderful stats system in GTA SA: Pointless grinding for the sake of realism!

Sure its cool for about a minute but after that going to the gym regularly and having to eat in GTA was about as much fun as actually going to the gym in real life - a chore!

The whole point about Fallout and similar and I'm sure this has already been discussed plenty of times before is that there really is no point in actually showing us the player that the PC really does all these bodily functions. Sure, you knew the PC would have to eat, sleep and pee at some point in the game but we never once saw it! You could buy a room for a night but that was merely a role playing distraction. Fun at times but it'd be really annoying if you had to do it every single game day. You use your imagination to believe that the PC does all this stuff when you're not looking: he sleeps and pees and eats when you hit the rest button or go travelling! Its something your imagination can factor in.

However, if you're the type of guy who has absolutely no imagination and needs it spelt out for you then sure, perhaps thats what Fallout 3 should be like - we know that it certainly won't be a game designed for the intelligent among us who actually can understand about books and PnP and all that other intellectual stuff ...

Adding food and other such necessary boring chores may not make a Sim per se but it'll certainly be something that gets majorly annoying and pointless (just like that damned exercise in GTA)

 

[Ravager69]

Good thing you brought that example with San Andreas.

I don't care if my character does eat or drink, I assume he is doing so, because without that, he'd be dead, now wouldn't he? The thing is, if you will have to eat and drink, there won't be no choice for players that don't want to be bothered by such things. And honestly - will it change ANYTTHING except for the fact that you'll have to spend time on looking for food and won't be able to carry as much as before?

It's like minigames. Nobody actually *needs* them, nor they make the game better. It's for people bored with shooting stuff all the time.

BTW - is looking for water the only possible way to use Outdoorsman skill you can think of? Outdoors aren't *only* on the world map you know.

 

[Sorrow]

<snip>

Now that's moronic. Food and water has nothing to do with imagination as it's a resource (just as ammo and money) that needs to be bought or found and carried around. So, you imagine that your character eats and drinks and drop money that he has to pay for it or you increase the outdoorsman skill and imagine that he is using it to get food and water?
Now, that's interesting .

Or maybe we should start making guns without ammo (hey, you can imagine ammo, also getting ammo is a chore ) or buying without money (you can imagine money too, and honestly who likes having to earn money - that's a pointless grinding just like in MMORPGs !).

Also, pray tell me was Ultima series a chore? Was ADOM a chore? Was Exile/Avernum series a chore?
You don't need to tell me - the search shown that you never mentioned them on this forum, so I'll assume that you never played them and that your knowledge of cRPGs outside Fallout is pretty limited.

However, if you're the type of guy who has absolutely no imagination and needs it spelt out for you then sure, perhaps thats what Fallout 3 should be like - we know that it certainly won't be a game designed for the intelligent among us who actually can understand about books and PnP and all that other intellectual stuff ...

By speaking such things you are spitting on some of the most respected classical cRPG series which have strong PnP roots.
Also, I would like to see a semi-decent DM that would allow you to walk a few days through the desert without any supplies, without suffering any negative consequences.

 

[Hotel California]

Or maybe we should start making guns without ammo (hey, you can imagine ammo, also getting is a chore Rolling Eyes ) or buying without money (you can imagine money too, and honestly who likes having to earn money - that's a pointless grinding just like in MMORPGs Rolling Eyes !).

You're blatantly not getting the point of this discussion Sorrow. Stop twisting my words to make these poor arguments involving ammo and money - they're totally irrelevant to the point we're discussing!

The entire thing we're trying to say here is that 90% of the fun involved in Fallout is exploring, dialogue and combat. Inventory balancing, travelling on the world map and the endless running from one side of the map to the other to pick up more stuff to barter for is the less than entertaining part.

Are you honestly saying that you play the old Fallouts by dropping money or increasing outdoorsman - because if you don't your logic is flawed!

Have you ever seen Bond stop to eat and poop? No, one assumes that he does this whilst off-screen and that its really not necessary to the plot. What you're suggesting is purely a) arguing for the sake of arguing and more importantly b) something that isn't adding anything worthwhile to the gameplay!

There are loads of little things that one has to assume happen when the player isn't watching:

• Did you ever stop and clean your weapon?
  Did you ever take your armour off to sleep in?
  Did you ever go to a bar or the post apoc equivalent of a cafe to eat and drink DAILY (and thats game time we're talking about)?
  Did you ever stop and find a suitable place to rest or just use the function as and when?
  Did you ever stop and rest when you travelled the desert and go to the blank desolate wastes map and rest there during the night?
  Did you carry a tent around with you for that purpose?

I doubt you did many of those things. Perhaps one or two might be done if you were playing a hardcore role playing run through but I doubt you did them every time!

 

[Sorrow]

You're blatantly not getting the point of this discussion Sorrow. Stop twisting my words to make these poor arguments involving ammo and money - they're totally irrelevant to the point we're discussing!

Is to totally relevant as food and water is a resource just like ammo and money, not a thing that character does when it's off screen.
Also, I was talking about the player's character eating and drinking "off screen" just like in Exile.

The entire thing we're trying to say here is that 90% of the fun involved in Fallout is exploring, dialogue and combat. Inventory balancing, travelling on the world map and the endless running from one side of the map to the other to pick up more stuff to barter for is the less than entertaining part.

I'm talking about picking up one-two laser rifles instead of five, not about endless running around to barter stuff.

 

[Kahgan]

This issue has been discussed over and over again before... bottom line is that Fallout is a Role Playing Game, not a wasteland-simulator.
There is food around mostly for the spice, Just like there are other items that are have no effect on gameplay, also some quests regards food (iguana-on-a-stick, anyone?).

 

[Sorrow]

So, Ultima series and Exile series aren't roleplaying games now, but simulators?
Sorry, I don't buy that argument.

Especially, that PnP manuals usually cover the costs of living and additional equipment like tents and the rest of adventurer's kit, etc., so argument about food being non-RPG but simulation isn't based on PnP RPGs nor on classical cRPG series.

So, better stick to "I don't want, I dislike" argument .

 

[Ravager69]

and you to the "I want, it has to be".

Seriously, how many people actually cares about food in a *computer game*? Most folks would be against it, I assume. And arguments about removing ammo are plain ridiculous.

And you can always buy food and carry it with you, as it is possible in both Fallouts, nobody forbids it to you.

 

[Sorrow]

Personally, I think that it would be the best if game developers replaced the easy-hard difficulty setting slider with heroic fantasy-semi-realistic realism slider .

As for buying food now - it's playing pretend, as the game doesn't offer any consequences for buying or not buying food.

 

[Ravager69]

Use you imagination

 

[Ashmo]

I'm actually with Sorrow on this one. There are RPGs and PnP games that factor food/water in. It's not something invented by The Sims and GTA:SA.

The key problem here is implementing it in a way that's not annoying. Food systems easily become a key element of the gameplay if they aren't carefully balanced -- nobody here wants finding food to be something you spend as much time on as, say, reloading your weapons.

 

[generalissimofurioso]

Personally, I think that it would be the best if game developers replaced the easy-hard difficulty setting slider with heroic fantasy-semi-realistic realism slider .

I seem to recall a little game called Sniper Elite that had something along those lines.

The easiest difficulty had Hollywood style physics and combat while the hard difficulty was just incredibly realistic (even factoring in heartbeat towards how steady your aim was).

 

[Sorrow]

I'm actually with Sorrow on this one. There are RPGs and PnP games that factor food/water in. It's not something invented by The Sims and GTA:SA.

Actually, it's a sign of GTA:SA borrowing from RPGs and Sims being based on RPG mechanics. It's kinda sad to see that some people think that it was other way around.

It made me long for some of features of old cRPGs...
Too bad that for some weird reason, when I try to play Exult, I end up trying to kill everyone ...

The key problem here is implementing it in a way that's not annoying. Food systems easily become a key element of the gameplay if they aren't carefully balanced

Hmm...
Is there any cRPG that actually overdone the food stuff XD ? I don't recall playing any. It would be amusing to play one that did, though (for a moment, that is XD ).

I seem to recall a little game called Sniper Elite that had something along those lines.

The easiest difficulty had Hollywood style physics and combat while the hard difficulty was just incredibly realistic (even factoring in heartbeat towards how steady your aim was).

Most of flight simulators have those - they allow playing on various setting from arcade to ultra-realistic. Similarly some PnP RPGs have a lot of optional rules . I'm not sure if any cRPG has such feature though...
The only one that I know is Omega Syndrome with its no-hitpoints-on-level-up mode.

Speaking of the inventory - I don't like the Fallout's inventory system - it doesn't track the storage space and size of items.
Amusingly, for some weird reason, there are backpacks and bags in Fallout 1 XD . I would prefer if there were slots for weapons, small items and a backpack.

 

[PaladinHeart]

Yeah I always avoided the bags because they seem useless (and only serve to take up more space). It would be nice to have inventory slots and use the bags to organize your different items. I always had a hard time finding particular items...

As for the food.. Well I think it's fair to stick to the bullets = foodstuffs argument. I know everyone won't like the idea of carrying around a few pounds of brahmin jerky, but in the same sense I'm sure not everyone likes the idea of carrying around a few heavy rockets. The difference being that you have to have the food to stay alive. The rockets, on the other hand, could be dropped if you had to make room. But then.. food doesn't wear nearly as much as rockets. Especially if you consider how little room some brahmin jerky would take up. 10 pieces of jerky and a couple canteens could possibly last you for days. Plenty enough time to go explore for goodies, and then come back and restock. Heck, food was never a problem for me in the ultima games. I always had fun collecting it and storing my extra off character.

I'm always a packrat in games, so food is just another useful resource for me. Takes up space and I'll use it later. Just like extra guns that I'll sell later on for cash.

I like Sorrow's point about having a "realism" slider. That would please everyone methinks. Err.. then again there are people who think designing a simple hunger system would take away from the rest of the game. That one whole hour it would probably take a professional programmer to actually add it in... heh... yeah...

 

[Sorrow]

Yeah I always avoided the bags because they seem useless (and only serve to take up more space). It would be nice to have inventory slots and use the bags to organize your different items. I always had a hard time finding particular items...

My main problem with inventory in Fallout isn't the mess. My main problem with it is that it allows player to carry ridiculous amount of stuff. Inventory slots would make it less absurd.
I'm thinking about playing with "house rules". I'm already playing with "no HP on level up" house rule and I'm thinking about creating some house rules about inventory, such as having to use a backpack to carry items.

Especially if you consider how little room some brahmin jerky would take up. 10 pieces of jerky and a couple canteens could possibly last you for days. Plenty enough time to go explore for goodies, and then come back and restock.

Eating dried meat would probably make character drink like a dragon XD .

Heck, food was never a problem for me in the ultima games. I always had fun collecting it and storing my extra off character.

Heh . It was never a problem to me too . It made the game world more and characters more real. Also, going to an inn and eating a different kinds of food was nice. Or eating from other people's tables while we are speaking about it .

"Is that virtuous?" .

Good old times ...

I was thinking about the food and water in Fallout, I've noticed that lack of these things creates a strange detachment from the setting.
So, my character is walking around that desert trying to find some Water Chip, but doesn't need to eat or drink. For example, what's the point of existence of farmers, towns, etc.
They are just a scenery and quest givers - towns don't give anything that would justify their existence. Which leads to that.

 

[PaladinHeart]

LOL! Yes. Pretty much after you do the quests you can kill everyone in a small town for some easy exp (if you don't mind the karma drop). If they had something more to offer, like say.. food for instance, then there wouldn't be as much incentive to kill them off.

Plus, after I have done all the quests in a town, the only reason I will usually return is for the shops. And this is usually just so I can keep selling guns to get an absurd amount of caps so I can afford super expensive character upgrades at the BoS.

 

[Sorrow]

LOL! Yes. Pretty much after you do the quests you can kill everyone in a small town for some easy exp (if you don't mind the karma drop). If they had something more to offer, like say.. food for instance, then there wouldn't be as much incentive to kill them off.

And there should meals in bars ! Maybe, doing some quest could allow the character some meals for free, for example doing the radscorpions/Tandi quest could allow the PC to have a meal in Aradeshe'es house.
More, food should have some taste descriptions like in ADOM or better, Planescape: Torment .