Bethesda. Learn storytelling.

[shihonage]

I think that a lot of Bethesda's narrative problems is that they come across as an "excessively permissive GM." You know, the kind that will let their players do whatever they want, a la "you guys want to just walk into Mordor at level 1? Cool."

Having a permissive GM is the holy grail of RPGs, and Fallout 1/2 came closer than other games did.

Fallout 3 just allows you to walk places. It only has a permissive GM in the same vein as Far Cry 4 or GTA 5 have a permissive GM, which is to say, it doesn't.

A permissive GM is a combination of several levels of world reactivity to who you are, NPC reactivity to what you do, multiple quest solutions, choices&consequences, ability to skip content or address things out of order, without breaking the game. Fallout 3 is a rigid straitjacket of a game. Hence the term "walking simulator".

 

[Walpknut]

Yeah no idea how Bethesda is "excessively permissive" when their games break if you try anything other than the linear path they put for you.

 

[The Courier]

My father in law is a huge history nut and is big on nordic cultures. Big viking guy. As such, I introduced him to Skyrim and it's one of his favorite games. That man has patience I can't perceive of. He has invested so much time into the game that he knows every questline and how to keep it from breaking. On top of this he's memorized all the lore and even what paths to take in world without the map or markers. It's pretty spectacular, really. His characters are always really well constructed with backgrounds that tie into the world well and even simulates their belief structures. He has a way of bending the game to his needs, like reverse GMing. He comes from a background of tabletops so making the game do what he wants it to is pretty easy for him. It's just sad to me that he has to.

 

[TheGreatCornholio]

I wonder if Dad wouldnt have been so limited if they had hired a more affordable voice actor for his role.

 

[Walpknut]

Or if they had hired a competent writer and Lead Designer.

 

[PossibleCabbage]

I think that a lot of Bethesda's narrative problems is that they come across as an "excessively permissive GM." You know, the kind that will let their players do whatever they want, a la "you guys want to just walk into Mordor at level 1? Cool."

Having a permissive GM is the holy grail of RPGs, and Fallout 1/2 came closer than other games did.

Fallout 3 just allows you to walk places. It only has a permissive GM in the same vein as Far Cry 4 or GTA 5 have a permissive GM, which is to say, it doesn't.

A permissive GM is a combination of several levels of world reactivity to who you are, NPC reactivity to what you do, multiple quest solutions, choices&consequences, ability to skip content or address things out of order, without breaking the game. Fallout 3 is a rigid straitjacket of a game. Hence the term "walking simulator".

I think what we're butting into here is the difference between a GM who never says "No" and a GM who always says "Yes"; the former is a good GM, the latter is a bad one. Fo1&2 were games that said "if you really want to..." to things, whereas Beth's tendency is to say "yup, you can do that." I mean, Mariposa is only 13 squares away from Vault 13, you *can* go there straight off, but it's probably not a good idea. Bethesda doesn't even want to impose sufficient structure on their games as to say "you can do that, it's just not a good idea" and this is pretty clearly illustrated by the fact that their fans went apoplectic about things like "you can't go straight north from Goodsprings, since if the Giant Radscorpions don't get you, the Cazadors and Deathclaws will."

What invariably happens with the "always says Yes" GM is that because there is a story they want to tell, and since you can't let anything the players choose to do outside of that story make their lives any more complicated within that story, you end up with intermittent segments where the GM decides to assert something rather than responding to the players. So the structure the game asserts clashes with the moment to moment experience of playing it, rather than constructively interfering with it.

Bethesda is the GM who is petrified of the players having a bad time, so the players can do whatever they want but that none of it matters to the narrative, it's just appeasement for the fact that eventually you're going to have to go to Little Lamplight.

 

[Walpknut]

But Bethesda also likes to say "NO!" to anything that isn't their intended unique solution to everything, or to acknowledge that you just did anything because they can't stand the player ruinning their "vision".

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Or if they had hired a competent writer and Lead Designer.

Like Emil. Truly the Jorge Borges of our time.

 

[fred2]

This is where Fallout 4 could shine. If they use the character's family properly and actually develop a tangible bond, it would be fairly easy to miss the Deathclaw-sized plot holes that will likely pop up.

I doubt that, I don't think the family will play any role in this. The pre-war scenario ties into the theme and mechanics of re-building society (like FO2, and building settlements), with purpose is to convey what has been lost.