Bit-tech plays Fallout 3

Ranne said:
There's a Game Critics Awards: Best of E3 2008 update at Gamespot.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6195454.html

"This year, the Best of Show prize went to Fallout 3"
Ahh truly a distinction of great gravitas.:clap:


Seriously, I couldn't think of a fluffier, meaningless, less substantive award.

It's hyping hype for the sake of hyping hype. Talk about lack of substance, it would be like giving out awards for "Best Book Cover", "Best Menu Descriptions" or "Best Car Commercial".

It speaks only of wankery, nothing of substance. That being said, it plays well to the audience they're tryinh to reach.
 
Well, the game sounds awesome to me and im most certainly looking forward to it.

sorrehs, can't be mean to me. is holding kittens :D
 
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
ArmorB said:
In most RPGs that I've played, the choices you make are typically regarding character progression, including stats, skills armor, weapons.
And which games were those then?
MMORPGs? Action RPGs? They should really call these for what they are, MMOGs and action games. Otherwise you end up with Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, World of Grindfest and Baldur's Gate all occupying the same genre slot. :seriouslyno:
 
Hey, don't you touch jRPGs. Many of them have their moments and I'd take the best of Final Fantasy over <s>most</s> many cRPGs any time of day.

EDIT: fixed 8-)
 
ArmorB said:
In most RPGs that I've played, the choices you make are typically regarding character progression, including stats, skills armor, weapons. These same RPGs typically have very linear storylines that give the player very little wiggle room.

Neverwinter Nights did feel a little like this...
 
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
ArmorB said:
In most RPGs that I've played, the choices you make are typically regarding character progression, including stats, skills armor, weapons.
And which games were those then?

Well the games that I played that are called RPGs that come to mind are Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Baldursgate, Stone Keep, Bards Tale (the original ones), etc... More or less standard main line RPGs. While Fallout has an awesome aspect of penalties for choices, in my experience this is not the norm. In my opinion that doesn't appeal to the masses. FO3 is being made for the masses. It, by design, will not appeal to the hardcore fan because it was not designed with them in mind.

Now ifyou want to talk about RPG's in the pen and paper way, then yes very very few computer games can get any where close to the flexibility. FO1&2 did it pretty good. FO3 will not, but it's not trying to.
 
ArmorB said:
Well the games that I played that are called RPGs that come to mind are Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Baldursgate, Stone Keep, Bards Tale (the original ones), etc... More or less standard main line RPGs.

Diablo and Dungeon Siege are not RPGs. Don't know about Stonekeep. The first BT was RPG-y in those days I guess, but even Wasteland puts it to shame.
 
My point was that there are several hundred games that fit in the genre of RPG. And only a small handfull are those that 'focus' on the permanat penalties for choices such as FO and Wasteland.

So you can either set your standard of what RPG really means by the 5% or the other 95% (made those up).

And even in pen and paper RPG's you are still limited by the DM/GM (much like a dev). Where as if he doesn't give a rats ass about which direction you travel out of town you will still end up in that damned cave. It's still RPing, just not as flexable as other DM/GM that would roll with the punches and have something else ready for the players based on direction. You really can't totally define a RPG genre while still putting lots of rules as to what really is and what really isn't and RPG.
 
diablo and dungeon siege are roguelikes. the only similarities to rpgs they may have is a stat system. stories are usually paper-thin in roguelikes, much like d2 and dungeon siege.

fo1 and 2 were not roguelikes: the didn't have randomly generated maps, and you didn't spend much time in "dungeons." this is something that bethesda has done before with oblivion, albeit from FPP, and something i believe NWN 1 did for many quests. i like dungeons for hack n slash, but not for RPGs.

the whole idea of a "fatal flaw" in fo 1 and 2 is really a matter of perspective. like it has been mentioned before, the only reason why true choice - consequence would be considered a fatal flaw is because such a game mechanic does not appeal to the average gamer. thats why extra lives, cheat codes, etc. are so popular. so implementing a system where you can't experience everything in a single playthrough, or rather "you can't experiences everything if you choose to be a certain person" is a very unpopular and unmarketable idea in bethesda's mind.

and that's pretty much why FO3 won't be a lasting, memorable, replayable piece of work.
 
No there are several hundred games labelled rpg that doesn't actually make them rpgs. Big difference.

There's no trades description act for video games, other than making sure that it is a video game, there's no industry standard set definition. Developers or rather marketing departments can describe their game as whatever they like, or rather whatever they think will shift more units.

That doesn't mean that there can't or shouldn't be rules to define the genre. If stats and character customization are the only deciding factor in rpgness then games like Crackdown, World Snooker Championship 2007 etc should fall under the rpg genre.
 
diablo and dungeon siege are roguelikes. the only similarities to rpgs they may have is a stat system. stories are usually paper-thin in roguelikes, much like d2 and dungeon siege.

I still consider Diablo and Roguelikes RPGs. It's not as if they're any different in terms of story from early D&D (or even many current D&D campaigns).
 
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
ArmorB said:
In most RPGs that I've played, the choices you make are typically regarding character progression, including stats, skills armor, weapons.
And which games were those then?

I can think of quite a few.. most of the D&D ones were very linear in the areas you could visit. Sure you could go back and visit past areas.. but new area's only opened up as you advanced the story.

Primarily this is how they got the level balancing right.

While some of you might not understand the logic in level scaling, I think it makes sense and is a good idea for Fallout 3. I think as long as they have it "tethered" and don't make they whole game scale with your character, or have the scaled enemies be unrealistically equipped, it will in general provide many of the benefits of a tightly controlled RPG like the previously specified D&D games, while at the same time maintaining the feeling like you can explore in the direction you like with pockets of areas that will require you to "level up" to badass status to tackle later.

About the system giving second chances on quests in dialog (or not dialog). I think depending on how the dialog is implemented, it can be a really good thing. I love fallout and I like the consequences.. but I also find myself cursing if I don't have a recent save when I fuck up some dialog (in any game). How many times have you changed your mind when talking to someone or had to apologize.. generally people in need are going to be receptive to an apology and then tell you what they wanted in the first place... so what if YOU don't want to apologize and get the quest. Then the fucking option won't matter to you will it? So I don't understand why people have the such a problem with the possibility of doing this.. you don't have to.

Which gets to an observation that I have made of some of the complaints here.. it astounds me that the mere possibility of a way to game the system COULD be broken elicits huge outcrys. It's a fucking single player game! Let's say hypotheticly there is a feature in combat where if you could poke someone with a pencil, they die instantly. So that would be stupid.. but it doesn't mean YOU have to run around doing it. And if the 5 year old down the street is, it's not going to affect your game at all. This isn't the case in many of the complaints about game systems and mechanics.. but often the complaints are mechanics that can be purely optional.

Just strikes me as funny and sad at the same time.
 
I still consider Diablo and Roguelikes RPGs...
You may consider Diablo to be a first-person spaceship simulator with elements of turn-based strategy, but today's formal (read, universally accepted) definition of Diablo's genre is Action RPG. In fact, Diablo's simplicity (point-and-click gameplay) was one of the most attractive qualities about the game. People claimed it revitalized the RPG genre. I say it dumbed it down a notch or two.
 
Ausir said:
I still consider Diablo and Roguelikes RPGs. It's not as if they're any different in terms of story from early D&D (or even many current D&D campaigns).

Wish I had played any D&D campaign that came close to how awesome the backstory for Diablo is :(.

But I think the key word here is "gameplay", and not "story". Roguelikes play wildly different from games like Fallout, and using the same term for describing both types of game makes little sense. Same could be said of jRPGs, I guess.

On the roguelike topic, found this at the Codex, and there's what I believe is an awesome zing at FO3 inside:

Edge Online said:
“Coming at it from the RPG side I don’t think we did stick to the formula in a lot of ways,” says Leonard Boyarsky, lead world designer. “I feel that Diablo II had a lot of room to grow in terms of the story and the RPG. I look at other games that have come out more recently, that are ‘action RPGs,’ and apart from changing where the camera is, I think we’re doing quite a bit more than what they’ve done. We could have done a completely different game style but that wouldn’t have been Diablo III.”
 
I think the review's author misunderstood how the orignal Fallout worked, so I'm not going to set a lot of store by what he said about how Fallout 3 works.

Fallout gives you lots of chances to weigh the consequences of your actions. Actually, Fallout 2 is a particularly good example, because a great deal of what you're going to do is determined by who you want in control of Redding. I actually felt like I was the one doing the scheming, though obviously my actual results were limited to a number of hard-coded options. But I talked to everyone in making my decision of who to back, and also in my actual flirting with all sides until I had to do something decisive. But if you read the FAQ, it's actually just a handful of triggers you have to pull to get the outcome you want. The sense that I was doing more than just triggering the events I wanted to see was in my head -- the story and the immersive experience was an emergent sense of freedom my mind constructed out of what boiled down to a handful of choices.

Before Fallout, I thought is was silly to complain that an RPG was linear. An RPG tries to tell a story, and story is linear, and it's okay that it is. But Fallout proved you could have a sense of freedom and also have a story emerge. Even some of the best CRPGs have failed to quite live up to Fallout's achievement, though I'm a lot less willing to dismiss some of the better ones than many of the people here. Again, your actual choices turn out to boil down to just a few, but the sense of freedom made them meaningful.

Compare this to Milton's Paradise Lost. God had a story he wanted to tell about the fall and redemption of mankind. Adam had to commit the sin to kick off the story. It would have ruined the story it Adam had never had a choice, though we all know his fall was inevitable. But Adam diddled around, probably sorting his inventory or trying to poke the animals to see if they said anything funny or exploded eventually. So, God sent in Eve to change the dynamic, possibly get the plot rolling. But it seems Eve was content to gather herbs for her alchemy lab, or something. So then God added the serpent. Boom! The story got rolling -- and all out of Adam's free will even though we know damn well that there was going to be no happy ending in the Garden of Eden. What Milton did to "justify God's ways to man" was to depict him as a GM, trying to create a story out of free choice.

Lack of freedom was never Oblivion's problem. It was that there was rarely ever the girl or the snake thrown in your path. When it came time to advance the plot, you knew where you had to go and you could just teleport there. It was great that you cold spend hours futzing around with horses and picking flowers and whatnot. I myself robbed most of the houses and collected baubles in my mansions. But notice what you get in Fallout -- you're after a water chip for your vault, and the themes of water and vaults keeps popping up, drawing you on to the plot just to investigate these points. You can diddle in the garden all you want, but some piece of information that will drive the plot is never far away in one of the central locations. In Fallout 2 you're looking for a G.E.C.K, from Vault 13 and the inquiry leads you down a lot of rabit trails about Geckos and other vaults, which gradually open up the world that you can interact with for more information to drive the plot.

It looks like Fallout 3 is going to provide that sense of freedom, and that is Bethesda's forte, and I expect it to be fun and even replayable just on that score. But to accomplish what the Fallout games did it must also, as it were, constantly have you tripping over Eves and serpents as you try to diddle in the garden.
 
Xenophile said:
I can think of quite a few.. most of the D&D ones were very linear in the areas you could visit. Sure you could go back and visit past areas.. but new area's only opened up as you advanced the story.
Thanks but I was only interested in what ArmorB was playing. I know that there are plenty of shallow games that have the label rpg stuck on the box just because they have a few stats, inventory or dialog options. I just wanted to know if ArmorB's sole acceptable definition of what makes a rpg an rpg was because it said so on the box.

My original point was that one of the things that Fallout is applauded for, one of the things the genre used to be built on is now being described as a hidden flaw. Yes not all crpg games before or after Fallout had the same level of choice and consequences, stop and think for a moment, perhaps that's why Fallout is held in such high regard by many? Don't you think?

Xenophile said:
While some of you might not understand the logic in level scaling,
Oh we do understand the logic of it. Because it requires less work, that's the logic of it.
 
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