Bowling for Columbine

welsh said:
Well even if I didn't WIkipedia does-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_for_Columbine

Bowling for Columbine is a documentary film written, directed, produced by and starring Michael Moore. It won numerous awards, including an Academy Award for Best Documentary Features, the César Award for Best Foreign Film.[1] It received criticism as well as praise for its genre and claims. The film opened on October 11, 2002, and it brought Moore international attention.

Honestly, I didn't agree with everything in Moore's film, but I think his thoughts on a the climate of fear were especially interesting. It seems that much of the reaction to Moore has come from those who took offense at his attack at gun ownership. But I suspect much of the justification for gun ownership - the "self-help" defense- is based on perceptions of fear that are largely unwarranted. Who benefits when an image is sold? So actually I think Moore was "swift boated." Sure there are failures in his documentary, but I saw it more as a thought piece than much else.
Again: not a documentary, because it doesn't report anything factual. It twists and turns, splices together sentences from completely different parts of speeches and, moreover, from actual *different* speeches. It ignores essential information and inserts incorrect and tenuous information, comparing information on one object to information from a completely different source on a second object.

As I've said before: regardless of whether or not Moore's *message* is correct, his movie is a manipulative piece of fiction and the arguments and reasoning presented in the movie are completely and utterly false. He wasn't 'swift-boated', he fucked up himself. Anyone can check on the actual facts and see this, whereas with the Swift-boat issue there was barely any way to check the facts and it was a case of one man's word against another man's word.
 
Sander said:
welsh said:
Well even if I didn't WIkipedia does-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_for_Columbine

Bowling for Columbine is a documentary film written, directed, produced by and starring Michael Moore. It won numerous awards, including an Academy Award for Best Documentary Features, the César Award for Best Foreign Film.[1] It received criticism as well as praise for its genre and claims. The film opened on October 11, 2002, and it brought Moore international attention.

Honestly, I didn't agree with everything in Moore's film, but I think his thoughts on a the climate of fear were especially interesting. It seems that much of the reaction to Moore has come from those who took offense at his attack at gun ownership. But I suspect much of the justification for gun ownership - the "self-help" defense- is based on perceptions of fear that are largely unwarranted. Who benefits when an image is sold? So actually I think Moore was "swift boated." Sure there are failures in his documentary, but I saw it more as a thought piece than much else.
Again: not a documentary, because it doesn't report anything factual. It twists and turns, splices together sentences from completely different parts of speeches and, moreover, from actual *different* speeches. It ignores essential information and inserts incorrect and tenuous information, comparing information on one object to information from a completely different source on a second object.

The question is whether it lies. What is interesting is that many of the criticisms of Moore are also full of holes. And that while Moore may make mistakes, many of the things he does are valid. The Lockheed factory he makes may actually dismantle missiles, but Lockheed also manufactures missiles. So what dif?

I can understand the criticism of Moore being disingenous and downright deceitful with Charlton Heston, but Heston has been known to be on the far right for a long time.

Is this an academic paper, no. Is it honest? It's opinionated, certainly, but that's what film makers do. I am not sure if documentary film makers were informed that there was a strict code of documentary ethics before they make their films. But it seems to me that a documentary has to be both informative and entertaining. Otherwise its pretty damn boring and no one will see it.


As I've said before: regardless of whether or not Moore's *message* is correct, his movie is a manipulative piece of fiction and the arguments and reasoning presented in the movie are completely and utterly false. He wasn't 'swift-boated', he fucked up himself. Anyone can check on the actual facts and see this, whereas with the Swift-boat issue there was barely any way to check the facts and it was a case of one man's word against another man's word.

Was the Communist Manifesto a piece of fiction? Was Weath of Nations a piece of fiction?

I think you have to define fiction here- for when I hear that I think of a made up story. Is crime not a problem in the US? Did Columbine not happen?

"The arguments and reasoning presented where utterly and completely false?" Are you saying that the NRA doesn't support gun ownership? That Canada has a lower murder rate? That a lot of the TV news in the US is about crime, when crime rates are significantly going down?

As for swiftboating- http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

I am not saying that there aren't faults in the film. Moore should have been more careful. But I am saying that the blasting that Moore has received for the film is motivated and in many ways false.
 
welsh said:
The question is whether it lies. What is interesting is that many of the criticisms of Moore are also full of holes. And that while Moore may make mistakes, many of the things he does are valid. The Lockheed factory he makes may actually dismantle missiles, but Lockheed also manufactures missiles. So what dif?

I can understand the criticism of Moore being disingenous and downright deceitful with Charlton Heston, but Heston has been known to be on the far right for a long time.
Wait, are you actually justifying this by saying 'Yeah, okay, it's fucked, but the victim is far right so it's okay!'
What the hell?

welsh said:
Is this an academic paper, no. Is it honest? It's opinionated, certainly, but that's what film makers do. I am not sure if documentary film makers were informed that there was a strict code of documentary ethics before they make their films. But it seems to me that a documentary has to be both informative and entertaining. Otherwise its pretty damn boring and no one will see it.
There's a difference between adding entertainment and practically lying.

Also, there's the dictionary definition. The one it actually fails to meet.
welsh said:
Was the Communist Manifesto a piece of fiction? Was Weath of Nations a piece of fiction?
Er...what? Neither the Manifesto nor the Wealth of Nations purport to be documentaries. Also, putting Bowlign for Columbine on the same level as those two documents is pretty damned arrogant.

welsh said:
I think you have to define fiction here- for when I hear that I think of a made up story. Is crime not a problem in the US? Did Columbine not happen?
Are you kidding me? He fictionalised an account from existing footage by splicing it together rather expertly. Yes, that's fiction. It reports a truth that isn't there.

welsh said:
"The arguments and reasoning presented where utterly and completely false?" Are you saying that the NRA doesn't support gun ownership? That Canada has a lower murder rate? That a lot of the TV news in the US is about crime, when crime rates are significantly going down?
*sigh* Sure, welsh, that's what I'm saying. I'm, of course, not using a hyperbole to comment on the falsities used, or the unjustified smearing of Charlton Heston and the NRA using constructed accounts.

welsh said:
The defenses cited there are extremely weak and tenuous. "Cold dead hands" is used to introduce Heston? Give me a fucking break. The positioning in the movie obviously infers a connection to the Columbine incident. The reasoning given here is an ad-hoc defense that makes very little sense. Even if this was the original intention, there's no way the editors couldn't have caught this.
It also flat out ignores many arguments given. '10 days is plenty of time to reach 4 million people to notify a change of location'. Bullshit. They first have to find and reserve an accomodation and town that would be willing to *in a single day* to be able to warn people. And 'booing the mayor of Denver shows that the crowd was fully aware of the controversy they were creating' is probably the shittiest reasoning I've ever read. It also claims that very selectively citing from a speech is 'good filmmaking'. Bullshit. Not if it then purports to have actually shown one continuous piece from the speech, and spliced it together to completely distort reality by removing the actual argumentation and apologies given.

That entire page is full of bullshit like that as it stretches to find tenuous and unrealistic defenses.

welsh said:
I am not saying that there aren't faults in the film. Moore should have been more careful. But I am saying that the blasting that Moore has received for the film is motivated and in many ways false.
Of course it's motivated, but that doesn't make the arguments any less valid. You should know at the very least that I certainly do not disagree with Moore's point with the movie, but I can't stand Moore's way of attempting to make a point: by lying.

Most of the arguments against the movie, by the way, are not false at all. Did you read the link I gave you? That's a pretty damned factual and well-motivated argumentation.
 
Link- Hardy?

The Economist writes-

Michael Moore

Sinned against
Jul 8th 2004
From The Economist print edition

An attack on the maker of Fahrenheit 9/11

MICHAEL MOORE is a controversial phenomenon who has made a name for himself by opposing big business and the political establishment in America. His new film, “Fahrenheit 9/11”, has recently broken box-office records for a documentary. But Mr Moore's reach sometimes exceeds his grasp, and he often seems to be a disagreeable employer and colleague. Many on the left, who might have been expected to constitute his natural base of support, have written persuasive critiques of his work.

Criticism from the right, of which this book is one example, has been generally less astute. “Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man” is edited (and the bulk of it is written) by a pair of Moore-obsessed bloggers. David Hardy set up a website called mooreexposed.com, while Jason Clarke founded moorelies.com. The book is the sort of crackpot melange that can work online—as in the drudgereport.com—but set in dignified print it too often looks just plain daft. At one point, for example, the authors liken Mr Moore to Hitler, and at another to Sayyid Qutb, an ideological theoretician of the Muslim Brotherhood, an extremist group founded in Egypt in the 1920s.

Of the 18 repetitive essays that make up the book, five were written by outside contributors, seemingly chosen at random. Of these, one is a review of “Bowling for Columbine”, a previous Moore film, taken from an Australian newspaper. It ends on the intellectual high note, “Go to hell, Mikey!” This level of argument is hardly the sort of thing to sway anyone who does not already share the authors' maniacal dislike of Mr Moore. Indeed, their loathing leads them not only to ad hominem attacks but also to exaggerate Mr Moore's influence. After all, his audience is no bigger than those of his demagogic counterparts on the right, such as Rush Limbaugh.

Only one of the essays, “America's Left Surrenders Itself to the Giant Sulk” by Andrew Sullivan, a former editor-in-chief of New Republic magazine, rises to a level of cogency sufficient to raise legitimate questions about Mr Moore's methodology and style. The short essay, taken from the Times, is a bit of journalistic ephemera, but at least it does not resort to fatuous popular psychology, as the book's authors do, although it does make the cheap charge that Mr Moore is “anti-American”.

It is possible to take issue with Mr Moore's work without chauvinistic jibes and xenophobic rhetoric. This book unwittingly apes the filmmaker's over-the-top style. Its heavy-handed and self-congratulatory manner utterly defeats its purpose.

And you trust this guy?

Ironic that this gets published just as Moore' anti Bush film is being released?
 
welsh said:
And you trust this guy?

Ironic that this gets published just as Moore' anti Bush film is being released?
Again: I never claimed that Hardy was without an agenda or free from criticism. Also again: the author's status does not, in any way, decrease the validity of the arguments.
 
hate to interject but....

The author's status does change the validity of an argument. This is the entire premise of the "scholarly" paper, which ensures that the author addresses all reasonable sides of the spectrum and is then peer reviewed to further maintain the authenticity of the thesis. While it is clear that Hardy has an agenda, this should, under standard colliegate rigor, blunt if not nulify his arguement (being a published political author, Hardy falls into the "should know this" category and not act like the puppet-esqe, pundit-pawn he is).

Anyway....continue
 
It does not change anything, other than statements made in the article which were subjective, and they were few.
 
Again, under standard conventions, the author's background is the FIRST thing you check when determining their validity. This man is tool and his arguments should be neglected, if he has a good point then someone reputable should say it for him in the public setting. I do not trust Al Franken, although I politically agree with him, his arguments are always incomplete and inaccurate. I barely trust Al Gore on global warming because this is a swing issue and so Gore has an agenda. I do trust my Chemistry professor, who is a doctorate in biogeochemistry and claim (and proves) the evidence that global warming exists. In conlusion, stating that "it does not change anything" proves nothing as any reputable source would tell you otherwise (and then you would find out who published that source and ensure their neutrality).
 
enkidu said:
Again, under standard conventions, the author's background is the FIRST thing you check when determining their validity. This man is tool and his arguments should be neglected, if he has a good point then someone reputable should say it for him in the public setting. I do not trust Al Franken, although I politically agree with him, his arguments are always incomplete and inaccurate. I barely trust Al Gore on global warming because this is a swing issue and so Gore has an agenda. I do trust my Chemistry professor, who is a doctorate in biogeochemistry and claim (and proves) the evidence that global warming exists. In conlusion, stating that "it does not change anything" proves nothing as any reputable source would tell you otherwise (and then you would find out who published that source and ensure their neutrality).
Don't be ridiculous. If you're looking at the person who wrote something before you look at the statement itself, you're being a dickhead. If Hitler said '1+1=2' that changes *nothing* about the validity of that statement whatsoever. It maybe changes something about the willingness of some people (like yourself) to believe it, but that's not the point.
 
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