Boy, 8, fatally shoots self with Uzi at gun show

[Deadman87]

if you believe guns = murder then your an idiot. canada has some of the highest guns per household counts in the world and they are calm as shit.

Then I guess that makes you narrow minded, seeing as a gun in the hands of someone who will use it to commit crime or murder, does in fact = murder.

You talk about the social status of countries, and of course do that have to do with a lot of things, but it doesn't exclude that weapons will be used to murder people.

You seem to believe that having guns lying around doesn't have anything to do with mortality rates. Tell that to the families who had their kids shot by a school massacre maniac owning a gun.

Some guy catches his wife cheating, he get's drunk, he's owning a gun... Catch my drift?

The gun makes murder more likely to happen imo.

 

[the_cpl]

PS. I'm totally assuming you are an american.

I'm not. I just moved here.

 

[LogisticEarth]

Then I guess that makes you narrow minded, seeing as a gun in the hands of someone who will use it to commit crime or murder, does in fact = murder.

That doesn't make a gun = murder. Motivated assailant with intent to kill = murder. The gun is merely a force multiplier, which works both ways. This addresses your other point:

The gun makes murder more likely to happen imo.

This is a misleading statement. The gun is a force multiplier, which makes someone who attacks another person more likely to do grevious harm to thier target (which often leads to death). The gun does not cause more attempted murders, it just makes those who try more successful.

HOWEVER, since the gun is only a tool and force multiplier, the defender can use it also and increase thier chance of stopping the assailant. Not only by USING force but by threatening force. A firearm is a two way street. Most major cities in the US have tried to pass extremely restrictive firearms laws, however the murder and overall crime rates, in every case, were barely affected by the bans. In many cases things got worse. But take for example, New York City. Things got safer and better there not when they restricted firearms, but when they attacked the root sources of crime.

Guns don't cause crime, cars don't cause high speed chases, computers don't cause credit-card fraud.

 

[Buxbaum666]

HOWEVER, since the gun is only a tool and force multiplier, the defender can use it also and increase thier chance of stopping the assailant. Not only by USING force but by threatening force. A firearm is a two way street.

The defender can also increase their chance of getting shot.

Things got safer and better there not when they restricted firearms, but when they attacked the root sources of crime.

Lo and behold!

Guns don't cause crime, cars don't cause high speed chases, computers don't cause credit-card fraud.

Guns give their owners the power to decide about life or death in the blink of an eye. I think that's a very dangerous power to be available to everyone.
While it is true that many things can be used to kill people, nothing makes it easier than a gun. Especially when acting in the heat of the moment.

 

[Pope Viper]

if you believe guns = murder then your an idiot. canada has some of the highest guns per household counts in the world and they are calm as shit.

Cut the personal attacks, and learn grammar.

YOU'RE.

 

[LogisticEarth]

The defender can also increase their chance of getting shot.

The numbers used to back this statement are misleading. Often you hear a gun in your house is "more likely to kill a family member than an intruder". This not only includes suicides (which GREATLY inflates he number), but also discounts the countless instances per year where an intruder is thwarted without ever getting shot or killed.

Guns give their owners the power to decide about life or death in the blink of an eye. I think that's a very dangerous power to be available to everyone.

I agree, felons, the mentally deranged, and young children should not be able to purchase firearms. But should that power only be available for law enforcement or the military? History has taught us that those people can be just as dangerous and/or incompetent , even moreso, than the average population.

 

[Levio91]

Fuck thats funny as hell.

 

[Blakut]

How come that in my country, where guns are illegal, crimes are not commited with guns? And criminals don't have guns? The police are armed with light pistols and rarely use them. I think the last time when the police had to shoot someone in my country was a few years ago. And the guy didn't even had a gun. There have been 12 premedited murders in my town this year (population 2.5 milion).

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

How come that in my country, where guns are illegal, crimes are not commited with guns? And criminals don't have guns? The police are armed with light pistols and rarely use them. I think the last time when the police had to shoot someone in my country was a few years ago. And the guy didn't even had a gun. There have been 12 premedited murders in my town this year (population 2.5 milion).

I am just going to take a swing at things and say guns are not as important to your countries culture as it is to Americas.

Has it ever been legal to own firearms in your country? Also what is your border situation and is there profit to be made by smuggling and selling illegal firearms inside your country?



We are the most armed nation in the world. I would have to know more about which country you live in to expand on this issue.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0709-03.htm

"By any measure the United States is the most armed country in the world. With roughly 83 to 96 guns per 100 people, the United States is approaching a statistical level of one gun per person."

 

[Buxbaum666]

I think it's quite a confession of failure if guns are important to a nations culture. But that's just me.

The numbers used to back this statement are misleading. Often you hear a gun in your house is "more likely to kill a family member than an intruder". This not only includes suicides (which GREATLY inflates he number), but also discounts the countless instances per year where an intruder is thwarted without ever getting shot or killed.

I actually meant that an armed intruder is more likely to shoot at you if you have a gun yourself. Don't you think?

I agree, felons, the mentally deranged, and young children should not be able to purchase firearms.

You don't have to be mentally deranged or a felon to pull the trigger in the heat of the moment. Not every criminal is a criminal by birth.

But should that power only be available for law enforcement or the military? History has taught us that those people can be just as dangerous and/or incompetent , even moreso, than the average population.

So you keep guns for possible shootouts with the police or the army? How likely is that going to happen and how likely is it that you'd win?

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

I think it's quite a confession of failure if guns are important to a nations culture. But that's just me.

You must find America in general to be failure in that case. Firearms are as American as apple pie and baseball. I really could not even begin to explain how important they are to our culture.

I actually meant that an armed intruder is more likely to shoot at you if you have a gun yourself. Don't you think?

Maybe, or maybe he could also rape your wife and daughter and shoot you all in the head than continue to go about plundering your house. People have every right to defend the homestead.

Honestly what would you do, just let them rob you? I say Let them break into my house and may the best shot win

So you keep guns for possible shootouts with the police or the army? How likely is that going to happen and how likely is it that you'd win?

This is a touchy subject that gets into the militia movement/Alex Jones type shit and I do not really enjoy going there. But yes a sizable portion of the United States does in fact train/store weapons for possible "preserving" liberty situations for lack of better terms.

It is not so much as winning in the minds of many as much as not going down without a fight and giving them hell at every possible opportunity.

This type of mentality also has a lot to do with our culture and history as well. I have a hard time explaining it to non-Americans most of the time and they do not seem to understand it. I just have received heavy doses of it due to growing up in the south.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

It is easier just to write us all off as rednecks


Also it is not only the Government but many Americans believe in stockpiling and training with firearms in case a foreign enemy ever invades the United States. I go back to my Japanese quote

"You cannot invade the mainland United States.
There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
(Japanese Navy)


Do not doubt the trouble a few thousand pissed off hillbillies can cause.

 

[Buxbaum666]

Maybe, or maybe he could also rape your wife and daughter and shoot you all in the head than continue to go about plundering your house.

Yeah, you could also die in a plane crash or getting killed by a car accident. Which is more likely.

Honestly what would you do, just let them rob you? I say Let them break into my house and may the best shot win

Chances that someone breaks into your house are quite low in Germany. Chances that they have a gun are probably even lower.

Do not doubt the trouble a few thousand pissed off hillbillies can cause.

A full-scale riot would be fun, I guess. I wonder why it doesn't really happen from time to time. I mean, look at the french.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Yeah, you could also die in a plane crash or getting killed by a car accident. Which is more likely.

I choose to always be prepared but that is just me.

To each his own.

Chances that someone breaks into your house are quite low in Germany. Chances that they have a gun are probably even lower.

Well I am glad things are working out well for you guys over there. We in the States have to figure out different ways to deal with our crime problems. Complete disarmament of America however is a laughable concept.

A full-scale riot would be fun, I guess. I wonder why it doesn't really happen from time to time. I mean, look at the french.

Id rather avoid it personally. However someone on the higher up seems to think dark days might be approaching.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217.html

"The U.S. military expects to have 20,000 uniformed troops inside the United States by 2011 trained to help state and local officials respond to a nuclear terrorist attack or other domestic catastrophe, according to Pentagon officials."

I am telling you 2012... there is gonna be some wicked shit going down. The Mayans might have had something going with that calender .

 

[Tycn]

The gun does not cause more attempted murders

Oh yes it does.
Potential murderers would be a lot more likely to attempt to kill someone if they have the means to make success probable... ie a gun.

Maybe, or maybe he could also rape your wife and daughter and shoot you all in the head than continue to go about plundering your house. People have every right to defend the homestead.

Except the assailant probably wouldn't have a gun if it wasn't so ingrained in your country's culture. Most firearms used in crimes are either legally owned, or illegally obtained from their legal owners (obtained via proxy, stolen or bought from a careless dealer), with illegal imports only a small fraction.

Although I'm opposed to guns, I agree that full disarmament of the US would be a stupid thing to attempt.

"The U.S. military expects to have 20,000 uniformed troops inside the United States by 2011 trained to help state and local officials respond to a nuclear terrorist attack or other domestic catastrophe, according to Pentagon officials."

Then again, the US is probably one the largest security risks in the Western world. I'll be sitting in Australia when all hell breaks loose

 

[Buxbaum666]

I think it's quite a confession of failure if guns are important to a nations culture. But that's just me.

You must find America in general to be failure in that case. Firearms are as American as apple pie and baseball. I really could not even begin to explain how important they are to our culture.

In response to this: no. I find the American culture quite interesting. The most important part to me is music. The USA brought us blues, jazz, swing, Rockabilly, Rock'n'Roll, surf. Ella Fitzgerald, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Gene Vincent, Frank Sinatra, Billie Holiday, Johnny Cash, The Ramones, The Beach Boys, Dick Dale. I could go on for hours.
That's what I call culture.

 

[Pope Viper]

Don't forget. The Internet and pr0n.

 

[LogisticEarth]

Oh yes it does.
Potential murderers would be a lot more likely to attempt to kill someone if they have the means to make success probable... ie a gun.

Is there any evidence to support this? That is, that higher concentrations of firearms per-capita result in more attempted and successful murders? Inside the US, you'll likely find that the HIGHER concentration of guns actually have less murders and violent crime in general.

That's what I call cultuer

Well, you can pick and choose stuff if you like, but the idea of a free, armed citizenry is part of it too. The history of it goes well beyond "We here like dem gunz!" It's a strong cultural philosophy for much of the country. For self preservation and for defense of our liberty should someone attempt to take it from us.

I think it's quite a confession of failure if guns are important to a nations culture. But that's just me.

Well, you're showing your bias right there. I see it as a strong affirmation that we trust ourselves with power, and trust in the public good. Weapons are not evil or bad, it's all about the people behind them. Life, property, family, and liberty are not things that can only be protected by "trained professionals".

 

[Buxbaum666]

Well, you're showing your bias right there.

Yes. It's not like you're not biased. Everyone is biased.

I see it as a strong affirmation that we trust ourselves with power, and trust in the public good. Weapons are not evil or bad, it's all about the people behind them.

Exactly. Now open your eyes to the world: many, if not most, people are morons. Many, if not most, people don't give a shit about the public good. People are racists, murderers, rapists, bigots, bullies, egoists, thugs, thieves, war pigs, dictators. People disparage, insult, hurt, humiliate, kill, oppress, wage war against, constrain and torture other people every day. If you give people power, many will abuse it.
The often mentioned stereotypical American arms-bearing 'law-abiding citizen' is a myth, an artificial ideal that is never met by anybody.

Life, property, family, and liberty are not things that can only be protected by "trained professionals".

That's just an excuse for borderline vigilantism. Just the fact that you feel the need to use guns to protect that stuff shows that people can't be trusted. You obviously don't trust them either.

 

[Sicblades]

I never understood how the defending the homeland is so big a point.

Even if there are a couple of hundreds civilians vs say 50 trained army personnel, I'd put my money on the army personnel. I figured knowing tactics goes a long way, but that's just my $.02. Only reason I'd ever own a guy is to admire it's craftsmanship, but it'd probably get stolen and I'd probably end up getting charged for murder.

 

[LogisticEarth]

Exactly. Now open your eyes to the world: many, if not most, people are morons. Many, if not most, people don't give a shit about the public good. People are racists, murderers, rapists, bigots, bullies, egoists, thugs, thieves, war pigs, dictators. People disparage, insult, hurt, humiliate, kill, oppress, wage war against, constrain and torture other people every day. If you give people power, many will abuse it.

No, you're totally missing the point here. And from your description it seems that you see the average citizen as someone be corraled, controlled, and directed by "those who know better". People will act like animals if you treat them as such. Likewise, people tend to act like responsible citizens if they are treated as if they are, and then expected to act as if they are. A citizenry without individual power is weaker than an armed citizenry.

The often mentioned stereotypical American arms-bearing 'law-abiding citizen' is a myth, an artificial ideal that is never met by anybody.

What? So what are the nearly 100 million people who owned firearms doing? What about the hundreds of thousands of people with CCWs in the US who carry weapons with them in every-day situations? Do they go on murderous rampages? With 100 million armed people, and 300 million firearms in private circulation, how can you say the "law-abiding gun owner" is a myth? That's ludicrous.

That's just an excuse for borderline vigilantism. Just the fact that you feel the need to use guns to protect that stuff shows that people can't be trusted. You obviously don't trust them either.

Do you lock your doors at night or when you leave the house? I assume yes. Because you're worried some criminal will come into your home and take your possessions or attack you. Does this mean that you also think that most people you see on the street are going to mug you? Hopefulyl not. Because you choose to retain the power to defend yourself and your property if someone breaks into your home does not make you're a vigilante. A vigilante actively seeks out criminals and attempts to take the law into his own hands. Defending your property, or even using your CCW while someone happens to try to rob the store when you're out to buy some milk and eggs, is not vigilantism.