Boy, 8, fatally shoots self with Uzi at gun show

Shattering Fast said:
Excellent. If more children were given the opportunity to fire weaponry at gunshows, we'd have less of them and the world would be a significantly better place.

Agree.

Anyway, how many people die in car accidents? Ban the cars then? How many people die at workplace? We should ban the working. How many children die by electricity every year? No more electricity! We should go to protest against the electricity! :roll:
 
Well cars weren't designed to kill, now where they ? There is fundamental difference between weapons and electricity.

The issue is, is the private ownership automatic firearms necessary at all. What do you need them for ? Hunting ?

And gun shows in US have lousy security and safety standards, to allow LOADED firearms to lay around. They should be empty, and with safety on always. And giving such devices to children is just stupid. The gun laws are jokes really, noone should own a firearm without a permit, or use one without having a permit. Really , is it necessary to hold an old, clearly outdated law in usage ?

I can accept hunting rifles and shotguns,you can hunt with them and get food, but pistols are useless really. No need to have them, and does it really protect you ?
 
And gun shows in US have lousy security and safety standards, to allow LOADED firearms to lay around. They should be empty, and with safety on always. And giving such devices to children is just stupid. The gun laws are jokes really, noone should own a firearm without a permit, or use one without having a permit. Really , is it necessary to hold an old, clearly outdated law in usage ?

I can accept hunting rifles and shotguns,you can hunt with them and get food, but pistols are useless really. No need to have them, and does it really protect you ?

if i went to a place like that and found a loaded weapon not in someone's hands i would hunt down the owner and punch him in the fucking face and ignore the consequences. its not only a huge risk in terms of someone snagging the weapon for some reason but there is also the HUGE deal of fucking muzzle awareness. you cant control the muzzle and keep it pointed away from people if its laying down and im not going to cope with a loaded weapon potentially shooting someone on accident.

now pistols, YES THEY SAVE LIVES. consider this one single fact. the police 99% of the time will arrive after the crime has happened. yes they patrol on the streets but most often the police confront a criminal after they have been called to the location. so if some guy is intent on taking what is yours at any cost, harming you or something similar in nature its downright fucking likely that no police forces are going to arrive until you are on the ground bleeding out.

i remember reading an editorial just about this pistol issue. a football player got caught carrying a concealed weapon with an expired permit. he is facing serious charges now because of it, especially because the league itself doesnt approve of it. now this case was a good example because most people think of football players as these tough bad asses but there have been PLENTY of cases where football players were beaten up on the streets, in their homes and so on. there was even a case where a football player was in deep shit as a couple of guys were about to bash him to pieces and terrorize home, but he managed to wrestle free get inside and draw a gun. i ask you, if these massive giants need a pistol to defend themselves how is the average person supposed to defend themselves with just hands? especially against criminals who couldnt give two fucks about weapons laws and be armed themselves. im some places people will even make a zip gun if they for some retarded reason cannot get a regular pistol, and believe me bud thats a BIG step up from even a knife. 1 9mm or .45 is plenty for that guy to win the fight.

now that particular editorial went on about israel actually considering it civic duty to carry a concealed weapon wherever you go and that resulted in pretty much the end of all mass shootings with machineguns and assault rifles but i dont want to go in that direction too much. even though its true.

look, i can understand people wanting an uzi off the street, it really is designed as an offensive weapon. you cant even conceal a micro uzi that well even. however, a pistol was designed with one thing in mind. that thing is the same with the military and civilian, its a last ditch self defense weapon. its your backup hidden away just in case the shit hit the fan. its short range, low power and largely small magazine capacity is ALL geared towards that, and even just facing one threat instead of actually seriously fighting with it. i like to call the modern pistol the dagger of the modern age. back in the middle ages people almost always wore a dagger for protection, it wouldnt do much good against a sword, or someone in armor but it was there in case someone wanted to kill him.

modern violent crime rates in the united states demonstrate that the police are simply incapable of being there to stop the crime. its just a fucking fact. further modern studies show that a general trend is that areas that allow concealed weapons permits have crime drops the more permits there are in the area. partially is the rare case that one of those pistols gets used in self defense but its also mostly the fear it puts in criminals, not knowing who is armed and who isnt.

now i also feel semi automatic rifles even if they look "assualt rifle like" shouldnt be banned either, but thats a completely different arguement based on my opinion. this here is simple fact that the pistol was designed as a self defense weapon and it actually does reduce crime and save lives.
 
ceacar99 said:
now i also feel semi automatic rifles even if they look "assualt rifle like" shouldnt be banned either, but thats a completely different arguement based on my opinion.

That is the entire issue with the new AWB that is supposedly going to be pushed by Obama. The new one has the possibility of banning M1 Garands, I mean really? The people coming up with these legislation have no clue what it is they are trying to get passed.

Banning weapons based on the cosmetic factor and because it "looks" like an assault rifle is a pretty lame reason.

Check this video out, makes me laugh every time:

"What is a barrel shroud?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo

It is hard to say if the revised AWB will get passed. Some think everyone learned the lesson with the previous one but I am not so certain.

One thing is for sure and that is Obama has been this years biggest gun salesman. Some of more popular names in the industry are back ordered on AR-15s for months due to the demand.

Here is a sample message from the DPMS website:

"Regrettably, DPMS is no longer able to offer a definitive delivery time on any rifle, part or accessory listed on our website. All orders are being processed chronologically as supply permits. All products should be considered as -Out of Stock- when ordering, DPMS will deliver items as they become available. We thank you for your understanding and patience."

I personally will be stocking up on high capacity mags.

Ah yeah and I might have thrown this in here somewhere before but I will do it again. Anyone here who realizes how ridiculous the original "assault weapon" ban was and does not want to see it again throw your name on this

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348

"This is NOT the cosmetic bill from the Clinton era and does NOT include
a sunset expiration, this one DOES ban many more guns, not just
features, going so far as to ban WWII era rifles such as the M1 Garand
and semi-automatic shotguns. Do your homework, learn about the details and contact your representative, act locally, raise awareness."


Every little bit helps and they can only take from us what we let them take from us. :wink:
 
Wow. This thread is pretty rediculous. It's gone from people offering condolences on one of the most pointless deaths of the year to paranoids thinking that Obama's going to take your guns away.
 
M-26-7 said:
Wow. This thread is pretty rediculous. It's gone from people offering condolences on one of the most pointless deaths of the year to paranoids thinking that Obama's going to take your guns away.

Yes no one has a right to worry, the fact that after he won the election his website changed to saying "He further stated that he wants to close the gun-show loophole and make guns childproof, and that he supports reinstating the expired Assault Weapons Ban."

Is no real reason to be paranoid at all or cause everyone to buy everything in sight like they are doing now eh?

Anyone who knows the slightest thing about firearms can tell you how retarded the first "assault" weapons ban was.
Just watch the barrel shroud video, those are the type of people trying to pass these laws. They have no idea what is even in their own legislation.

The actual crime stats for "assault" weapons are somewhere around 1% of all gun crime iirc ( I will edit that in with a link when I find the source again). That is not even saying the ones used in crimes are legal. Do you think a drug dealer/cop killer is going to go through the ATF registration process?

The "Assault" Weapons Ban targets semi auto rifles that look "evil" and high cap magazines. How often do you hear about someone attacking another person with an M1?

If the goal of these law makers is to reduce crime, stronger regulations on handguns would be where they need to hit. That is laughable however at how easy it is to illegally get a handgun.

http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=177117&page=1&wh=wh



Either way it does not really matter to me, I just like spreading the word because I am loving the jump in gun sales.
 
"He further stated that he wants to close the gun-show loophole and make guns childproof, and that he supports reinstating the expired Assault Weapons Ban."
Yeah, cause who doesn't want their guns to be child accessible! He's trying to keep kids JUST LIKE THIS ONE from dying! What an ass. No where does that say "I'm going to take ur gunz", it's called grandfathering and it's happened with several bans. Grandfathering is why I can go out and buy certain AKs as long as they were imported before a certain date. Make guns child proof = good, but no where does he say it should be mandatory. Stopping people from getting guns via loopholes at gunshows is also a pretty good idea. I see no reason why any normal person can't wait five days for a gun or why they have to have an automatic weapon. Especially since automatic chew through ammo like you wouldn't believe. Ammo is rediculously expensive. I'd be much happier with a Mosin than a M249.

If anything I would say those are all pretty non chalant gun ownership stances. Frankly I don't think Obama gives two shits about guns at a time when our planet is rapidly burning up, terrorists are running amuck, and the U.S. is going into what could be the greatest depression since the depression. But this is all I'm going to say. I won't blatantly disregard your points and write you off as a buffoon, but I'm not going to be arguing this point any more. If you feel guns are more important than any of the things I have just listed, then there is no reasoning with you. I would happily never own another gun again if it would stop terrorism, put us into Clinton era prosperity and reverse global warming.
 
Do you even know what the new AWB wants to do? The weapons you are referring to that you cannot buy before a certain date (Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986) are machine guns.

You can go down to the local gun shop and currently buy a semi auto Ak-47 (the kind the AWB wants to ban) that was made last week.

The issue here is people think semi auto rifles that LOOK like automatic weapons are instantly dangerous and should be banned. These bans rely on confusion to get passed.

That woman in the video did not even know what a barrel shroud was, she just tried to keep going back to ranting about high capacity clips and blah blah blah. If she wanted to target guns used by "drug dealers and gangs" like she said she would be going after handguns.

As I said I am not to worried yet, they weapons that are threatened by HR 1022 are getting pumped out on the streets in record numbers and will be easily available in face to face transactions. I personally will be stocking up on the high cap mags if anything to sell back at a higher price.

The question is will HR 1022 even gain traction and be focused on with other issues like the economy going on as you said. Only time will tell I suppose.


On a side note, Do you know how many crimes have been committed in the United States with a legally registered machine gun?
 
Bal-Sagoth said:
Do you even know what the new AWB wants to do? The weapons you are referring to that you cannot buy before a certain date (Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986) are machine guns.

You can go down to the local gun shop and currently buy a semi auto Ak-47 (the kind the AWB wants to ban) that was made last week.

The issue here is people think semi auto rifles that LOOK like automatic weapons are instantly dangerous and should be banned. These bans rely on confusion to get passed.

That woman in the video did not even know what a barrel shroud was, she just tried to keep going back to ranting about high capacity clips and blah blah blah. If she wanted to target guns used by "drug dealers and gangs" like she said she would be going after handguns.

As I said I am not to worried yet, they weapons that are threatened by HR 1022 are getting pumped out on the streets in record numbers and will be easily available in face to face transactions. I personally will be stocking up on the high cap mags if anything to sell back at a higher price.

The question is will HR 1022 even gain traction and be focused on with other issues like the economy going on as you said. Only time will tell I suppose.


On a side note, Do you know how many crimes have been committed in the United States with a legally registered machine gun?
That resolution says nothing about taking away guns does it?
Besides it's silly to debate a bill that's this early in the process. It hasn't even gone to the floor yet. Without a doubt changes will be made. That's how politics works. You don't think that the gun lobby will be taking some of this extra money and putting it into politician's pockets?
 
M-26-7 said:
That resolution says nothing about taking away guns does it?
Besides it's silly to debate a bill that's this early in the process. It hasn't even gone to the floor yet. Without a doubt changes will be made. That's how politics works. You don't think that the gun lobby will be taking some of this extra money and putting it into politician's pockets?

Are you aware of what exactly the previous AWB did?


I will agree it is far to early to tell, This panic has done wonders for the gun business tho. I am loving these record high semi auto sells and it is getting more and more people active politically in voicing support of the right to bear arms.

At the same time I am not completely convinced the new AWB will pass. I am sure the opposition to the original one is still fresh on many peoples minds.

edit: And no the ban would not take away guns (lol I would love to see them try that one) but it will stop the sell of certain ones for really no good reason as the ones they want to target are not the ones commonly used in crime.


Also do not take me for someone who is running around like a chicken with its head chopped off thinking the world is coming to an end. I understand legislation like this gets thrown out there every year and it normally never gains traction.

The only real reason this is causing such a stir is because Obama added to his website after he was elected that he supports putting the AWB back into action.

Again it is to early to tell but for us gun owners it is never to early to start writing them letters and getting active. If anything the recent surge in gun sells should show politicians how important this issue is to Americans.
 
lol barrel shrouds huh.... sounds like someone was picking at compensators which honestly have become standard equipment for every self loading rifle....

anyway, how much the old idiots in congress actually know about the world is best exemplified by a case where a video for battlefield 2 was released speaking arabic giberish and honestly making fun of terrorists using the mec in the game. congress went ape shit and with a few "experts" claimed the video game was a "terrorist training device".......

and yes guns are a HUGE issue to americans, especially the "heartland americans" in the midwest. its not just because we fucking love guns(and we do) but its also because of facts such as its common practice for just about every country piece of property to have a firearm on the premises, and every ship or boat has its own firearm as well.

there is also the social obsession with ensuring that the people are sufficiently armed that the government isnt stupid enough to think that it can force its will on the people in a "crisis". americans can be downright paranoid about the government, or patriotic(such as the various militia groups. they do train to fight and shoot but many of them also train to excel in operations such as search and rescue by radio signal).

i mean for me the liberal amount of guns available to the people means three possitives. 1: we are one of the most heavily armed nations on earth, with our national culture an invading army wading through certain areas of our country is in for one hell of a time and will likely see its ability to move and supply itself highly damaged by the local population. 2: our people are in a possition to restore order in the case of something happens like germany in the 30's. 3: if the shit hits the fan the military actually has a significant stockpile of arms that it could honestly draw from. people payed war bonds in the past, they could donate rifles in the future or even bring their own to the fight.

further we all know that germany in the 30's was one of the fist cases of COMPLETE gun control. when the shit hit the fan the dissenting portion of the population couldnt do anything. it was large enough to cause a tremendous mess in germany but it didnt have any hope of starting anything because it didnt have any hope of getting the arms to do so, so those organizations were largely stuck doing operations similar to the french resistance instead of starting a real civil war. it sounds sick and wrong, but i honestly want my country prepared to start a civil war with itself.
 
Patton89 said:
Well cars weren't designed to kill, now where they ? There is fundamental difference between weapons and electricity.

The issue is, is the private ownership automatic firearms necessary at all. What do you need them for ? Hunting ?

And gun shows in US have lousy security and safety standards, to allow LOADED firearms to lay around. They should be empty, and with safety on always. And giving such devices to children is just stupid. The gun laws are jokes really, noone should own a firearm without a permit, or use one without having a permit. Really , is it necessary to hold an old, clearly outdated law in usage ?

I can accept hunting rifles and shotguns,you can hunt with them and get food, but pistols are useless really. No need to have them, and does it really protect you ?

What about knives? That is designed to kill. Cut meat with that. Let's ban the knives!

Weapons? I say selfdefense! I say target shooting! Hunting too? Maybe. Auto weapons? Why not? Not the wapon is the dangerous, but the people. You can kill with a fork too, if you want...

Are there a statistics about how many people's lives are saved by guns every year? I watching the news, and I see so many news about how people shoot violent criminals with shotguns, semi-auto AKs, etc.

And gun shows in US have lousy security and safety standards

I'm sure there are standards, but people ignore the rules sometimes. But as I said the cars are also dangerous. What about the drunk drivers?

I can accept hunting rifles and shotguns,you can hunt with them and get food, but pistols are useless really.

Pistols are usually for self defense. LoL! Do you want to see the people walking all around the streets in the United States with shotguns? :lol: Bad idea!

What about women? What kind of a gun should they use? A 20 pounds, heavy shotgun, instead of a tiny pistol in their purse?

does it really protect you

It does. That's why people buying guns. Because all the criminals have guns, so the people must secure themself and their family. What are you doing if full armed criminals attack your family? You shout at them? :clap:
 
SSteve said:
That's why people buying guns. Because all the criminals have guns, so the people must secure themself and their family. What are you doing if full armed criminals attack your family? You shout at them? :clap:

So the logic here is that when A who harm B can aquire guns legally, the right course of action here would not be to impede the way how a weapon is purchased and owned, but to make it so that B hoard guns themselves, so they can kill A when trying to harm/kill B.

:|

My country features the other solution that the USA are under, and have in this list a 12 times less criminal firearm related death ratio.

(But it should be noted that in this list that the intentional murder rates are only 4 times higher in the US.)

PS. I'm totally assuming you are an american.
 
Deadman87 said:
So the logic here is that when A who harm B can aquire guns legally, the right course of action here would not be to impede the way how a weapon is purchased and owned, but to make it so that B hoard guns themselves, so they can kill A when trying to harm/kill B.
:|

The issue is how criminals acquire guns. Do you think someone who is willing to break into your house and take your life for your possessions will really have a problem going down to the street corner and buying an illegal handgun?

Complete disarmament in America is an impossibility. Even if you could magically stop the production and circulation of all weapons inside the States (yeah thats side grabbing funny I know) you would not even have touched the issue of all the guns that would be pouring in over the border.

No one is going to take away handguns in the United States. Not at least in the foreseeable future.

The main issue gun owners are worried about at the moment is the banning of high cap magazines and certain semi auto rifles that are commonly used for sporting purposes but are deemed "assault" weapons because of the fear mongering brought on by groups such as the Brady Campaign.
 
this is pointless. If people want to believe that buying guns makes you somehow safe, you can belive that.
Automatic weapons are useless, they are simply offensive weapons, that have nothing to do with self defense. And the self defense value of firearms is very doubtful, buy a bullet resistant vest if you want to be safe. Owning a gun wont save you from drive by shootings.

And try not to compare GUNS to cars. The killing potential might be large with both, but again, were CARS designed to kill, or to move people and goods ? Gun safety violations cannot be justified with drunk driving. THEY ARE BOTH ILLEGAL.

Also, knives are necessary, or do you want to use your teeth to cut the turkey ?

The point is, i don't see a reason why someone needs full automatic shotguns and rifles and .50 cal Barrets. And im okay with 10 round clip semi autos or 8 round garands, they can be used to hunt. And hunting is a basic instinct in all animals, including humans. Even though i don't think its ABSOLUTELY necessary. We have cattle for meat.
 
Patton89 said:
this is pointless. If people want to believe that buying guns makes you somehow safe, you can belive that.
Automatic weapons are useless, they are simply offensive weapons, that have nothing to do with self defense. And the self defense value of firearms is very doubtful, buy a bullet resistant vest if you want to be safe. Owning a gun wont save you from drive by shootings.

And try not to compare GUNS to cars. The killing potential might be large with both, but again, were CARS designed to kill, or to move people and goods ? Gun safety violations cannot be justified with drunk driving. THEY ARE BOTH ILLEGAL.

Also, knives are necessary, or do you want to use your teeth to cut the turkey ?

The point is, i don't see a reason why someone needs full automatic shotguns and rifles and .50 cal Barrets.

I extend my question I asked earlier to you, Do you know how many legally owned machine guns have been used in crimes in the United States?

We have not even really been talking about automatic weapons in this thread anyway.


Also this in particular "If people want to believe that buying guns makes you somehow safe, you can belive that."

Care to tell that to a woman who is about to be raped? Instead of pulling out the 38 in her purse and putting three in the chest and one in the head what is she supposed to do... pull out a cellphone and call the cops/wait 20 min for them to get there?

Or how about if someone breaks into your home and they are armed? I suppose they would just leave if you asked them nicely, maybe invite them to the kitchen for a nice cup of coffee?

Personally I keep the carbine loaded by the bed but that is just me.


edit: as far as stats go you can find all sorts of biased info from left/right sources on guns used in self defense. I will just throw the first source I got off google out there.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#Crime and Self Defense

Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)

* In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." (16c)



* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)
 
Care to tell that to a woman who is about to be raped? Instead of pulling out the 38 in her purse and putting three in the chest and one in the head what is she supposed to do... pull out a cellphone and call the cops/wait 20 min for them to get there?

* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)
Last post I swear.
Anyone able to preform a Mozambique drill in a high stress environment (especially with a revolver) is not going to get raped, gun or no. OPERATORS don't get raped.

Your last point is a fallacy of thinking, sequence as cause. Washington DC was notoriously dangerous in the 70s, 80s and still is today (although, how dangerous a city is depends on a lot of things). You never say outright there is a connection, but it's heavily implied.[/quote]
 
M-26-7 said:
Care to tell that to a woman who is about to be raped? Instead of pulling out the 38 in her purse and putting three in the chest and one in the head what is she supposed to do... pull out a cellphone and call the cops/wait 20 min for them to get there?

* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)
Last post I swear.
Anyone able to preform a Mozambique drill in a high stress environment (especially with a revolver) is not going to get raped, gun or no. OPERATORS don't get raped.

Your last point is a fallacy of thinking, sequence as cause. Washington DC was notoriously dangerous in the 70s, 80s and still is today (although, how dangerous a city is depends on a lot of things). You never say outright there is a connection, but it's heavily implied.

To be honest I would just advise her to empty the gun into whoever was coming after her. I just liked to use fancy wording :P

When my cousin moved to a high crime area of a local city my uncle bought her a shotgun and his instructions were very simple. He said:

"Ok... if someone has broke in your house and is coming after you get behind your bed and aim the gun at the door, yell at them to leave and say you have a gun, if you see the door opening after that you keep pumping and pulling the trigger until you hear it click"

Obviously he was exaggerating a bit but the point I still take to heart. If someone breaks into your house or is trying to harm you there is no point in trying to be civil and shooting them in the leg or some shit. Empty 7 or 8 rounds into them and have a nice cup of tea while you wait on the cops to get there.


As far as the Washington D.C. thing I was mainly just copying and pasting that entire section from the website on guns used in self defense. I was not in particular trying to branch the convo off into that.

It does not really matter anyway, the unconstitutional handgun ban in D.C. was struck down last year. It was a great victory for gun owners.

Banning handguns did not work out that great for the UK either.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

http://www.omgili.com/newsgroups/ta...q=parent_forum:talk.politics.guns+order:newer
 
Deadman87 said:
SSteve said:
That's why people buying guns. Because all the criminals have guns, so the people must secure themself and their family. What are you doing if full armed criminals attack your family? You shout at them? :clap:

So the logic here is that when A who harm B can aquire guns legally, the right course of action here would not be to impede the way how a weapon is purchased and owned, but to make it so that B hoard guns themselves, so they can kill A when trying to harm/kill B.

:|

My country features the other solution that the USA are under, and have in this list a 12 times less criminal firearm related death ratio.

(But it should be noted that in this list that the intentional murder rates are only 4 times higher in the US.)

PS. I'm totally assuming you are an american.


if you believe guns = murder then your an idiot. canada has some of the highest guns per household counts in the world and they are calm as shit.

ill say this here too, i said it in the sharing the wealth thread as well. THE VIOLENT CRIME IN THE US IS A SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC PROBLEM. ITS BROUGHT ON BY LARGE AREAS OF INCREDIBLY POOR PEOPLE THAT DEVELOPED A CULTURE OF IGNORANCE AND VIOLENCE. washington dc is one of the most violent cities in the entire world DESPITE the fact that it managed to essentially ban all firearms for almost 30 years. its no coincidence that washington is also one of the highest concentrations of poor black people(not saying black people are violent themselves), whom have been living that way for generations.

these areas further start violence because of racism started by the economic problems in the first place. blacks being racist against whites, mexican gangs not accepting anyone else and so on. often these things are caused by the poverty and the horrible situation these people are forced into. if they didnt have guns they would stab each other, and they have demonstrated that in the past.
 
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