Brits Give Selves National Castration

[Brother None]

They beat Napoleon.

No.

Most of my ancestors where still on that side of the Atlantic in 1815. Well, a lot of them.

My ancestors were Roman. Should I call myself Italian now?

Don't be an idiot. You have no right or business to call national pride for what the English did. What is this, an American inferiority complex? You get one country to be patriotic for, dude, not two. Please stop insulting the English.

 

[Dapper Dan Man]

I am a bit curious: Would this possibly indicitive of British politics regarding mainland Europe? I have heard several assertions that the British Labour Party (especially Blair) is seeking to be a more integral member of the European Union, despite significant opposition at home. Perhaps this "gesture" has a bit more of a political meaning to it?

 

[Brother None]

Maybe, but that's nothing new. GB has always tried to dance between the US and the EU, making them the lackey of one and powerless in the other.

GB really, really needs to decide who it wants to side with (on issues in which you can't side with both), the EU or the US. It's old-fashioned isle-mentality is no good.

 

[Mikey]

It's either be the US's pet doggy, a member of the EU whom everybody hates, or to go with UKIP and sod everyone else and (somehow) survive on our own.


This is why I'm glad I'm not old enough to vote.

 

[4too]

Clash Of Cliques

Clash OF Cliques



Welsh:

... Unbelievable how people are afraid of history being insensitive. ...

One could entertain the notion that recalling the wealth of warfare in, and around, up, or down wind of Europe, could support any flavor of opinion.

Particularly in regards to ... "European Union".

Blue versus Red, unless this is some organizational shorthand, convenient color coding, or on the fly economizing like a pick up game
uniformed as "'Shirts Versus Skins"", I fail to see how the concept of - reenactment - could be close to applying to this 'love fest'.

If this is Political Correctness, I fail to see how this achieves any goal except parody.

Political Correctness would be a lot funnier if it wasn't about propaganda, if it wasn't about thought control.

Could pontificate. Could dust off the cliques; ""those that fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it "". But this has more of the feel of
the axioms about the ""rewriting of history"". The comedy of misdirection takes on an Orwellian Noire as if the purveyors of this week's fashionable ideology are ready willing and able to declare" "" THERE IS NO HISTORY "". Ready , willing , and able to 'shape' the facts around the cause. Spin stories. Fold, spindle, and mutilate, clear causes into media masticated, predigested sound bites of world wide terrorist conspiracies, and London is only ""45 minutes away"' from nuclear destruction ....

In the moral realm where 'the end justifies the means', ...

""there is no history""




4too

 

[John Uskglass]

My parent grew up in the Congo.

Excuse me while I go dance naked around a campfire now, thankyouverymuch.

Considering that you are white, I think you would better appreciate your Congoloese heritage by mercilessly amputating children for not working hard enough, or watch millions die of starvation as they work on constructing a road through the jungle.

My ancestors were Roman. Should I call myself Italian now?

Well, if the argument is on history 2,000 years ago, why not? My point is that at this time in my ancestors history, most of them where in England, thus I feel I can share in some pride in British history. Especially as my Grandparents are still English.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

I have grandparents who are Czezh, but I don't take pride in (or particularly care for) Czezh history. Why? Because I am a Croat. Cro-at! I am not a Czezh, I never have been, and I never will be. Same goes for you, CCR - you are an American. As such, you are supposed to have patriotic sentiments for one country - USA. Taking pride in history of Great Britain not only makes you look silly, it is also an insult to real Brits.

Considering that you are white, I think you would better appreciate your Congoloese heritage by mercilessly amputating children for not working hard enough, or watch millions die of starvation as they work on constructing a road through the jungle.

What the hell does this have to do with topic at hand? And need we remind you again that your country (that's USA, in case you have forgotten) has committed more than its fair share of genocide?

 

[John Uskglass]

I have grandparents who are Czezh, but I don't take pride in (or particularly care for) Czezh history. Why? Because I am a Croat. Cro-at! I am not a Czezh, I never have been, and I never will be. Same goes for you, CCR - you are an American. As such, you are supposed to have patriotic sentiments for one country - USA. Taking pride in history of Great Britain not only makes you look silly, it is also an insult to real Brits.

American History starts in 1620, unless you're a fag and like Native Americans. And genearlly Hyphenated Americans are allowed to take some pride in their ethnic heritage; see Afritan Americans, German Americans even. Not to mention Italian Americans.

What the hell does this have to do with topic at hand? And need we remind you again that your country (that's USA, in case you have forgotten) has committed more than its fair share of genocide?

Fair enough. But not as likely to personally have commited genocide in any case. Most of my family is either Northern or poor non-slave holding South. Not to mention Mormon.

 

[Mikey]

I'm no expert, but surely the whole Declaration of Independence thing signed away the Americans' right to revel in our most utmost and glorious glory?

 

[welsh]

@4too- dude I love your posts.

This is a strange defense of John but....
My folks are German and Swiss and I grew up in New York at a time where there was quite a bit about World War 2 memories about.

In NY we have two phenomena at work. First, we have one of the largest Jewish communities in the world. Second, and less well known, this is where a lot of Germans went after World War 2 in the post-war migration.

Consequence- a lot of Germans and German kids get a lot of guilt about World War 2. You started World War 2! You burned the Jews! (And because I am part Swiss)- You stole their money, burned the documents and got rich on Nazi gold!

If one cannot enjoy a bit of national pride than should one also be forced to swallow a bit of national guilt?

Unfair? Maybe. I mean if it means that people remember saturation bombings of cities or burning bodies in ovens, and if in remembering we stop ourselves from repeating past mistakes, than perhaps a bit of vicarious guilty isn't such a bad deal.

 

[Brother None]

American History starts in 1620, unless you're a fag and like Native Americans. And genearlly Hyphenated Americans are allowed to take some pride in their ethnic heritage; see Afritan Americans, German Americans even. Not to mention Italian Americans.

That might be because the unique bigotry in the USA means that hyphenates can't join in or feel as a part of the main community. African Americans used to feel American, though for most of their history second-class Americans. "African pride" is actually a relatively new concept and one that arises only from, mark this, trying to find an identity to replace the American one

You have a cultural identity; American. Your cultural identity is not British, hence you should not falsely claim pride on pieces of history that are not yours. The fact is your pride is chauvinistic or maybe nationalistic or maybe patriotic, but all of them depend on identification with *one* country. You can't identify with two countries and you can't split your identity between "from years so much to so much for this country and from year so much to so much to that country" just because your country happens to be a former colony.

I'm no expert, but surely the whole Declaration of Independence thing signed away the Americans' right to revel in our most utmost and glorious glory?

That there is the problem with trying to gain two seperate point of national pride at once. Americans are supposed to be proud of having gained independence, not proud of their enemies.

 

[John Uskglass]

Kharn...what happened to you? This is beyond trivial or minor.

That might be because the unique bigotry in the USA means that hyphenates can't join in or feel as a part of the main community. African Americans used to feel American, though for most of their history second-class Americans. "African pride" is actually a relatively new concept and one that arises only from, mark this, trying to find an identity to replace the American one

Oh, utter and total bullshit, you have NO idea what you are talking about. Asian Americans, for instance, are as American as Apple Pie, but we still have an Asian American History Month. For Fuck's Sake, we have a part of the month where we are supposed to focus on women. Are all women second class citizens?

We alienate African Americans? Huffaw. Maybe 40 years ago. Now, if anything, it's the other way around; African American culture has become it's own excuse for exsisting and not becoming assimilated into mainstreme American culture, and not to mention the obvious; it's still American as Apple Pie, because America has and always will be diverse. Rock and Roll, Jazz, Blues, Rap, Hip Hop...these are all American yet they have roots in the African American community. African Americans are Americans.

I don't care if you see this as hippocritical. It's what happens. See Welsh on the German comment. Heck, my French-American friend takes pride in aspects of French History. Is she no longer American?

That there is the problem with trying to gain two seperate point of national pride at once. Americans are supposed to be proud of having gained independence, not proud of their enemies.

Bullshit. The Brits where our enemies for a short while. They where never our fucking antithesis like the Turks to the Russians or the French to the Germans. Fuck, most people agree today that the Revolutionary War was much more a Civil War because both sides where British.

Not only that, but Britan and the USA have been for the last 50+ years two of the closest allies in history.

 

[Brother None]

Kharn...what happened to you? This is beyond trivial or minor.

Oh, I'm just enjoying myself. What about you?

Oh, utter and total bullshit, you have NO idea what you are talking about.

Kind of like you talking about Germany, yet you still do.

Asian Americans, for instance, are as American as Apple Pie, but we still have an Asian American History Month. For Fuck's Sake, we have a part of the month where we are supposed to focus on women. Are all women second class citizens?

Really? As American as Apple Pie? Do you mean that when they speak their "inbred" language, be it Mandarin or Japanese, Mandarin or Japanese is as American as Apple Pie? Or do they have their own sub-culture *inside* American culture?

We alienate African Americans? Huffaw. Maybe 40 years ago. Now, if anything, it's the other way around; African American culture has become it's own excuse for exsisting and not becoming assimilated into mainstreme American culture,

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006608

Also, "bling-bling"-culture is not a deeply inset cultural phenomenon. It is not being copied indepth on a wide basis, though its forms and habits are being duplicated by the mainstream media. Essentially not integrating but copying it.

Your argument makes no sense, though. If African American culture is its own excuse for existing, how does that counter my argument of their keeping their cultural claims ONLY on Africa and not on the US?

and not to mention the obvious; it's still American as Apple Pie, because America has and always will be diverse. Rock and Roll, Jazz, Blues, Rap, Hip Hop...these are all American yet they have roots in the African American community. African Americans are Americans.

That's cute, so you're saying you can be proud of all cultures because America has no cultural identity?

Whatever happened to the greatest culture ever thing?

I don't care if you see this as hippocritical. It's what happens. See Welsh on the German comment. Heck, my French-American friend takes pride in aspects of French History. Is she no longer American?

There's a difference, again, because English culture has transferred into American culture. There is no English hyphen. There's an Irish hyphen, there's a French hyphen, but there's no English hyphen. English-American *is* American, period, which as it is the mainstream and dominant cultural doesn't need to isolate and defend itself by identifying with foreign cultural traits. Calling yourself English is betraying your country and insulting England, a French-American calling herself French is denying her American identity and identifying with America instead. You can't do both, but this is less important for the non-dominant cultures, who have no mainstream American culture identity to fit into, than it is for the dominant culture, which is yours.

Also note how French-Americans, African-Americans and Asian-Americans didn't fight the French, Africans or Asians to gain independence. That's why they don't insult their roots cultures by claiming ties. They all have immigrant roots, not <strike>terrorist</strike> "freedom fighting" roots like the English-Americans

Bullshit. The Brits where our enemies for a short while. They where never our fucking antithesis like the Turks to the Russians or the French to the Germans. Fuck, most people agree today that the Revolutionary War was much more a Civil War because both sides where British.

Are you saying it's a good thing Souther Americans still identify with slavery and bigotry because it's in their roots? And that's directer roots too.

Look, you fought the English because you didn't want to be British anymore. You wanted to be your own country. You fought and you won. You're just insulting that victory by denying it.

Not only that, but Britan and the USA have been for the last 50+ years two of the closest allies in history.

Boo-fucking-hoo, the fact that the Belgians have existed inside the Benelux with Holland and Luxembourg doesn't mean I now claim the Belgian Revolution to be a Dutch victory.

 

[welsh]

Kharn- I think you are dismissing the possibility that one's identity is a creation and may include multiple identities. In that sense you are oversimplifying.

Being German-Swiss American (if I accept the hyphenated concept) I felt a certain affinity to Germany and Switzerland as places where my family originated. Many Americans who can trace their origins to their parents or grandparents immigration still do that. Many still cling to the notion of their cultural origins.

But I think most find, eventually, that they lose that sense of origins. They pick and choose from their culture and mix it with the cultures they find in the US. When I was 15 I thought of myself as a German/Swiss-American. By the time I was 25 that idea just didn't fit. Although I had cultural roots from my family, my sense of self and my sense of home was all about being an American.

This is something that happens to immigrants. Those who come from the "old" country cling to their identity. Their children have a harder time adjusting to the new culture. I have seen a bit of this with Asian kids, especially Vietnamese, who have trouble figuring out what culture they belong to. But then perhaps it isn't suprising that issues of identity formation are especially prevelant among the young who are still trying to understand who they are.

So we have sections of major cities were the people speak mostly Korean, Russian, Yiddish, Vietnamese. We used to have areas where people spoke mostly German, Swedish, Italian and French. New generation brings new languages as the old generation disperses and becomes part of the culture. But you can still get good German food if you look for it.

That sub-cultures exist within a culture doesn't necessarily mean that those identities don't co-exist. Rather it is more likely that one chooses their identity depending on situation and circumstances. In that sense identities, at least for the individual, are somewhat fungible.

In reality, the longer one stays in the US the less they are connected to their place of origin. I see that in my wife, a Brazilian, each passing year. Despite what cultural roots she brings with her, she is becoming Americanized. I see that more clearly than she does, in part, because her culture is germane to her.

That said, in the US she would still be seen as Brazilian-American from her Brazilian friends, Hispanic-American (or latina) from most other ethnicities.

Identity is a Janus faced devil split between how we see ourselves (our sense of self) and how the world sees us (the image that others see) and somewhere between those two images is how we really are.

 

[Silencer]

we have a part of the month where we are supposed to focus on women.

Actually, that's most of the month, except those few days when we should avoid them :

 

[Mikey]

Ah, but the Americans who were once British weren't immigrants, were they? I mean, immigrants join an existing culture/society from the outside. After the Revolutionary War, and the gaining of Independence, America effectively made it's own. If I were to be fairly primeval and blunt, couldn't I say "Either they are completely American, thus pay no allegiance to our monarch, be exempt from our government and have no right to share in our past, present or future victories, or they are completely British, and must pay allegiance to our monarch, pay obediance to our government and share in our past, present and future victories."?

 

[John Uskglass]

I think Kharn is just unhappy because it looks like France will do the right thing and say NO to the EU's constitution.

 

[Brother None]

Kharn- I think you are dismissing the possibility that one's identity is a creation and may include multiple identities. In that sense you are oversimplifying.

(...)

This is something that happens to immigrants.

You are negating your entire argument here.

Immigrants, yes. Turks who move into the Netherlands, fine. Second or even third-generation Turks? Fine, *maybe*, though it's a sign of bad integration.

What we see here is the pathetic flailing about a nation without a cultural identity. Drowning people without a sense of self try to cling to the sense of selfs that properly culturally identified nations have. To state it dramatically, that is.

Do you not comprehend that what you are saying is foreign to us? Cultural identity is not something you can stomp about and mix up. Immigrants can, yes, because they have lived long sections of their lives in different countries. If John gets English citizenship and lives there for 10 year, then he has a right to feel proud to be British, now he should just STFU.

However, national identity when you live in a single country is, fittingly, singular. I do *not* have the right to call myself Russian just because I lived there for 6 months, that'd be an insult to the Russians. And if was ist is right most of my heritage is actually slavic (hehehehe).

You are American. You fought for your independence. It's pathetic for yourselves and insulting for the English if you claim pride on English history, even IF such a claim were justified. It just shows that the American self-identity is incomplete and needs supplements. Don't you think that's sad?

I think Kharn is just unhappy because it looks like France will do the right thing and say NO to the EU's constitution.

Your gloating because you tried to put words into my mouth in the EU thread was bad enough, but this tops that one. Y'know, if I were Roshambo I would've banned you a long time ago for mouthstuffing. For all clarity, what I mean to say is:

I'm against the EU constitution. I'm against the EU as an institution in its current forum. I have states so multiple times, very clearly. Your failure to read me saying as much does not give you the right to make up my point of view. Please do not state I have an opinion unless I have explicitly stated it.

Frith in the Sky, man, if you fail to read what I write and try to put your own words into my mouth again, we might all be able to celebrate an upcoming new av for you...

 

[Big T]

The British Navy has the greatest naval tradition in the history of naval traditions. No need at all to piss on it in the name of European Unity and Political Correctness. I don't understand, while they're at it, piss on the Argentines as well. Britan kicked thier asses too.

To re-rail the thread (although the imigrant identity discussion is fairly interesting) I don't believe it's anything to do with the Navy. It's just some recreationists trying to be PC.

GB really, really needs to decide who it wants to side with (on issues in which you can't side with both), the EU or the US. It's old-fashioned isle-mentality is no good.

This is true, but the Island mentality disappeared when we tried to make inroads with either of the two camps (US & Euro), as we ceased trying to exist as a separate entity.
Personally, I feel we are much more similar to the Euros than America (Socialist-derived government, rather than <strike>theocratic</strike> conservative) despite the American claim to our culture. But that is just my opinion.

Without having read the (EU) constitution, I can't really comment on it. I know I should try to learn a little more about it, but I am far too lazy.

 

[Brother None]

This is true, but the Island mentality disappeared when we tried to make inroads with either of the two camps (US & Euro), as we ceased trying to exist as a separate entity.

It adapted, it didn't disappear. You're still trying to be a power onto yourselves, mostly as a younger brother of the USA, while the rest of the EU is...well...the rest of the EU.

Though trying to balance between two powers is generally a bad idea, I do like Britain's attitude towards the EU. While the rest of us got screwed with the Euro, you kept your own strong valuta.

Personally, I feel we are much more similar to the Euros than America (Socialist-derived government, rather than <strike>theocratic</strike> conservative) despite the American claim to our culture. But that is just my opinion.

Without having read the (EU) constitution, I can't really comment on it. I know I should try to learn a little more about it, but I am far too lazy.

Deocratic?

And your go is not up yet for the European Union Constitutional Agreement (EUCA?). I'm pleasently surprised, as are most people, by the fact that the referendum has raised people's conciousness of the EU and how much it influences us to a new level. And most people don't like what they see

Hey <strike>Donkey Barbarian</strike>Johnny U, the Dutch also have a referendum (first in our history!), half a week after the French one. Ours is also looking to be a no, though it's everybody's guess with us more than with the French.