Brotherhood of Steel as an antagonist?

[Languorous_Maiar]

Didn't he mean by that they broke contact with original Brotherhood and separated themselves (went rogue)? Was he referring specifically to 2277?

During journey from Lost Hill to Capital Wasteland, Lyons' BoS meet midwestern BoS, which is small and off the radar.

Small - not having a lot of cities and bases, from Colorado to Illinois

Off the radar - look up^^ Also, it's indicate they have 0 power, which is not any threat for others.

You got me here, but that still doesn't prove whether Mid-West returned to anarchy or whether local BOS is still standing. Caesar also states NCR is decadent and gets his ass kicked in 3 out of 4 endings

But Reginald's words prove. Caesar's words only strengthens that.

Midwestern BoS still standing by 2281, but without any real power, totally decadent without knowledge about their ancestors. They propably lost most of Colorado to Caesar and rest lands for local folks. Only next godness initiate can save them, but you know, Beth never will continue Tactics story and Midwestern BoS is lost.

Also, Beth want them loosing, that's why Reginald say that in Fallout 3.

 

[Mameluk]

And that takes us to discussing whether whatever said in F3 is canon and confirmed But you proved your point. Personally I'd much rather Mid-Western Brotherhood to stand strong, to fill the void between two coasts.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

It's canon, now Beth have rights to Fallout and Beth decide what is canon and what is non-canon.

Emil Pagliarulo from Beth confirmed Fallout Tactics is semi-canon, with major events being canon.

Btw. I found Caesar quote.

Some of the Brotherhood scribes we captured further East didn't even know the name of their founder, Roger Maxson.

 

[Mameluk]

It's canon, now Beth have rights to Fallout and Beth decide what is canon and what is non-canon.

Let us hope then they learned from New Vegas how to carry on Fallout's spirit.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Tagaziel about Midwestern BoS

And last, the Midwest Brotherhood is not as powerful or large as some might think. First of all, they are fascists who forcefully estabilish their control over villages, demanding a tribute of men and supplies in exchange for protection (which isn't even that good, as evidenced by the fact that your second mission in Tactics concerns the rescue of a tribal elder kidnapped by raiders from a village you just brought under the Brotherhood's protection). They don't treat supermutants, ghouls and deathclaws as equals; hell, their military leader, Barnaky, was a declared specieist, who loathed "lesser" races, such as the aforementioned mutants, even if the Elder council saw their usefulness in combat. They operate internment camps and brutally press those they conquer into service (ever heard of inquisitors?). And in the end, they aren't a big organization. They control a decent stretch of land, but they do it through brutal force, not any kind of refinement. The attrition rate among initiates is horrifying, they are treated like cannon fodder, no, scratch that, they are cannon fodder. And to finally confirm my point, they operate in squads. Not platoons, not battalions, squads. Squads of six. They are a miniature, elitist faction organized more like a kingdom (with a king (General), his council (Elders), nobility (Paladins and high ranking Scribes and Knights) and subjects working and dying so that the elite can continue to stay in power. Hell, even the people under their control hate them (recall Coldwater?).

Well, they weren't so good, as everyone here thinks. : D Now, you know why they collapsed.

 

[SnapSlav]

Arguing that whatever Bethesda says goes is pretty ignorant. Yes, they own the RIGHTS to Fallout now, but so what? Fallout is both a part of a business, and part of an art. The IP is business, and Bethesda owns it, but the Lore, its canon, the heart of Fallout, is all art, and Bethesda has merely proven they DON'T "own" that.

Many creators of huge sci-fi genres/universes will cite the phrase, "At the end of the day, who does [the story] belong to? And the answer is: the fans." These are creators with integrity; people who recognize that even when someone creates something, what that something represents is bigger than them. There's a reason Fallout is never called the true sequel to Wasteland, yet characters and settings FROM Wasteland crop up from time to time in Fallout; EA owns Wasteland, yet the heart of Fallout IS Wasteland.

Seriously, you have no real hope for the series if you give up and decide that JUST because Bethesda owns the rights to it that anything they say is what goes. The truest fans of the series have looked at FO3, and deemed that it was highly non-canonical, and Bethesda can't do anything about that. They own the business of Fallout, but not its heart.

--------------

You keep citing that Caesar's mention of Midwest Scribes not knowing Roger Maxon's name was somehow proof that they fell apart. As I mentioned before, the Midwest BOS was founded by PALADINS, not Paladins, Knights, and Scribes. When they picked themselves back up after the crashes and rebuilt, they recreated some of the hierarchy that they were used to out of familiarity. By the time of the Warrior and the BOS's campaign against the Calculator, none of the Midwest Scribes had ANYWHERE close to the same role as the traditional Scribes. They cataloged new recruits and maintained supplies, acting as "trading posts" from within the Brotherhood. They weren't technological analysts like their founders' members were.

But even the original Brotherhood's Scribes didn't KNOW who Roger Maxon was, and they barely knew him by his name. By the time of FO1, he was just a name to the Brotherhood, and they had no idea who he was, where he came from, nor why he founded the Brotherhood; hence their bizarre and self-destructive ideals. The unrested group which fought against this that would one-day become the Midwest faction NEVER held those traditions in high regard, so you could easily assume that they never knew Maxon's name from the very start.

--------------

In FO3, they never stated the SPECIFICS of the failure to communicate with the Midwest BOS. That being said, what Rothchild stated "proves" nothing, except that the Midwest faction was indeed real, and not made-up. According to the endings of that faction, they INTENDED never to establish contact with the original faction out west, so you could even argue that they "went silent" while Lyon's contingent passed through. Do I think that's what happened? Not necessarily, but like I already pointed out, it looks like what became of the Midwest BOS was that it's still there, but just not the major power we either expected it to be, or possibly that it was.

The simple fact is that at the height of the clash with the Calculator, all of the Midwest's bunkers were simultaneously being attacked by large forces of the Calculator, forces that they had no hope of beating. So the very survival of the Brotherhood at that point was dependent swiftly "beating" the Calculator, but by that time, countless casualties would have amassed. The ending even specified that their crippled size was taken advantage of by opportunistic raiders, so what was left of the Brotherhood that survived the Calculator was gradually finished off by raiders. It seems to me that the "off the radar" smaller size of the Midwest faction was simply due to the heavy fatalities of their campaign, not because of some mythical implosion due to becoming "too imperialistic".

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Wow, just saying Bethesda canon isn't canon is funny. : D I hate them too, but you know, canon is canon, sad story. Don't be dreamer, detached from the world.

It seems to me that the "off the radar" smaller size of the Midwest faction was simply due to the heavy fatalities of their campaign,

In canonical ending midwestern BoS established Vault 0 their main base, however in F:NV is stated Caesar's Legion control most of Colorado. He and any other guy from Legion didn't mention any fights with Midwestern BoS (but they mentions conquering Denver, which, according to your reasoning should be very smaller than all midwestern BoS). That all indicate they lost their main base, Vault 0, furter showing they minimal power.

Caesar also mention "further East", not in his Coloardo, but further, which also show that midwestern BoS by time after Denver defeat was in really bad condition. He hasn't any war etc. with midwestern BoS, which again show their weakness.

If they had any power, they shouldn't let Legion catching theirs scribes in their territory far from Caesar's Legion territory.

Especially for you, I made mini-map.
[spoiler:55cfecc555]

[/spoiler:55cfecc555]

You see? It's too close. Midwestern BoS lost all theirs land in the west due to being "too imperialistic". They lost those lands before Caesar's Legion came to Denver... also Reginald words indicate that Chicago is main base of midwestern BoS, which has to retire up east as they can after all they loosing what Caesar confirmed by saying "further east".

Ofc. Lyons' BoS meet Midwestern BoS in 2254, but their situation after decades didn't become any better, because they still haven't common border with Legion or any war etc. Even random tribals from Denver made more trouble for Ceasar's Legion, yeah, midwestern BoS is so powerfull!

It seems to me that the "off the radar" smaller size of the Midwest faction was simply due to the heavy fatalities of their campaign, not because of some mythical implosion due to becoming "too imperialistic".

Joke? Learn timeline, then discuss.
In 2198 midwestern BoS destroyed Calculator and made Vault 0 their main base. (They have lagerst power around that time.)
60 years is enough, to rise again after some fatalities but they never will rise again.
In 2254 decades after campaign they only small detachment in Chicago, not big faction having bases around all 4 states.
Shortly before 2281 Caesar's conquered Denver (pyrrhic victory). By this time Midwestern BoS still doesn't hold any of their bases from Colorado including their main base. They also allow Legion's scout harass their former states and and kidnap their people, without starting any fight.

Your arguments are fanatical, far from what games established.

BoS is dead (Even Obsidian want them dead as you can see in F:NV), accept that.

They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end.

 

[SnapSlav]

Wow, just saying Bethesda canon isn't canon is funny. : D I hate them too, but you know, canon is canon, sad story. Don't be dreamer, detached from the world.

Like I said, ignorance. That attitude is identical to that of people saying "Well, what happened in Starcraft isn't what actually happened, because Starcraft II says so!" Yet the IP for that series didn't even EVER change hands, unlike Fallout; it was always in Blizzard's hands. Yet they butchered the canon because they were selling a product, no longer just creating a beautiful, intrinsic universe. There are VERY LARGE communities of the fans who argue that much of Starcraft II is non-canon, and their criticisms ARE vaild, because of how it blatantly contradicts the series' established lore... and it's all from the same developer!!!

There is no fine line between the product as a business and the product as a form of art. They're two entirely separate entities, but you're treating them like they're one in the same. Bethesda made a product for business, but they didn't provide any elaboration or maturation of the art aspect of it (the universe/lore). It's not dreaming to point out that FO3 is VERY non-canonical, it's practical. It's grounded in fact-based analysis. You can disagree with it all you want, but that wouldn't make you right by default.

Furthermore, at no point was I ever claiming that the Midwest Brotherhood was still in full strength, like you're criticizing me of doing. That's you making things up, not me. I was pointing out the VIRTUES of that faction, and why it's ridiculous for fans to blindly hate them, which you simply presented the perfect example of blind hate, literally on the very next following post... AFTER I pointed out the absurdity of blind hate! (See my sig for instructions.) You had no reasons for it, you just spouted gibberish. I countered your gibberish, and that led us to where we are now, with you making things up to suit your argument. YES, the Midwest BOS doesn't seem to be around, but the question remains as to why. Despite what you may believe, your version of their history is NOT the truth.

Now, given the combination of your loose understanding of the English language, and your completely detached relationship with reality and simply facts, I'm serious when I say that literally anything and everything you say is to be totally disregarded. Even when you manage to fight through how hard it is to read your comments, the actual "points" you provide end up hollow and don't stand up to the least bit of scrutiny. If you can't grasp the simple fact that the Midwest BOS were NOT what you wanted others to believe them to be, that your distaste for them was blind hate, and that this entire topic is formed around fantasy, because it's regarding FUTURE content (meaning "does not yet exist"), then your further input is utterly pointless. It's close-minded bias bordering on extreme elitism, and truth has no bias.

Your arguments are fanatical, far from what games established.

Your logic directly extends to the notion that "if the game said it, it's real", and as a result, that means FOBOS is totally canonical.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Your logic directly extends to the notion that "if the game said it, it's real", and as a result, that means FOBOS is totally canonical.

Not, because Bethesda clearly said, FOBOS is non-canon.

By your logic, the whole discussion shouldn't have place here. Fallout Tactics in compare to old Fallouts is also shitty, like Fallout 3, and it's then non-canon, you know, microforte did that for business, without heart of Fallout. (it's totally too modern, with many lore fails like Fallout 3.)

 

[Renegadexss]

This argument is kind of pointless and dumb. At this point by saying canon belongs to the fans I could say since I'm a fan the Masters armies the wastes now because I am a fan and I said so lol.


For better or worse what Beth says/makes now is canon as they own Fallout.

 

[SnapSlav]

This argument is kind of pointless and dumb. At this point by saying canon belongs to the fans I could say since I'm a fan the Masters armies the wastes now because I am a fan and I said so lol.

Yet you'd be proving the opposite, because you make that argument as absurd and conflicting as possible, while consciously aware that you had to make the EFFORT to make it deliberately absurd and conflicting. You're aware that it's false, that's why you brought it up. Doing so merely proves that the opposite is indeed true.

 

[valeriovff]

Even I won't ever accept FO3 or FONV cannon, it's merelly a sentimental statement.

The "contradictions" arguments are futile, in the cannon it self there are contradicctions as well. Is a sort of futuristic fantasy (not sci-fi).
The "fan belonging" argument salso are wrong. Fans are fans, not developers. We could fantasy 'bout the world and try to dotate it with more coherence and beauty, but our creations aren't cannonical. We're users of a product, not they're creators.

A game has a BACKGROUND, nothing more. After that we may (or not) use their ideas for out purpouses and pretend be creating an "universe".

 

[paladin_lord]

honor bound

I noticed the following arguments about the midwestern brotherhood are mistaken, it mixes cannon and non cannon facts with the background for fallout tactics two. comments below.

Tagaziel about Midwestern BoS

First of all, they are fascists who forcefully estabilish their control over villages, demanding a tribute of men and supplies in exchange for protection .... They don't treat supermutants, ghouls and deathclaws as equals; hell, their military leader, Barnaky, was a declared specieist, who loathed "lesser" races, such as the aforementioned mutants, even if the Elder council saw their usefulness in combat. They operate internment camps and brutally press those they conquer into service (ever heard of inquisitors?).
And in the end, they aren't a big organization. They control a decent stretch of land, but they do it through brutal force, not any kind of refinement. The attrition rate among initiates is horrifying, they are treated like cannon fodder, no, scratch that, they are cannon fodder. And to finally confirm my point, they operate in squads. Not platoons, not battalions, squads. Squads of six.

let me enlighten you paul ...

The midwest brotherhood of steel actually never became the facist faction you mention because fallout tactics two was never released. and since Beth defined the warrior destroying the calculator as cannon the fascist regime never happened. The inquisitors are mentioned on the barnaky's ending, nowhere else, this means there are no inquisitors in the canon midwest brotherhood. Let us clarify that No they aren't altruist goodies that protects tribals due the light of their shinning hearts Nor evil oppressors and lunatic fascists. They are disciplined, stern and honor-bound. It is the best way to survive in the Midwest. how would anyone expect to get support from other communities (recruits, supplies) if they didn't put weight in their word or if they unfairly punish those under their domain ? The key words to understand why the Midwest bos was able to expand are "mutual benefit".

We can see by in game references (below) that the bos didn't push the protection deals "down the gut" of the village elders. they simply had to wait until the rashness of the wasteland proves they need that protection (Brahmin wood, Springfield, Quincy), even so if the town insisted in refusing the protection services the brotherhood just left it alone to its own fate (Peoria, Junction City). While administrating its own domains the bos didn't interfere with the local government by replacing the ruler or its militia; Charon remained leading Brahmin Wood and Felix continued to be the head of Quincy's guards, proving the BoS subjects were free being only bound to their part of the bargain. Criminals, raiders and hostiles, regardless of race ... were the only ones to be put in internment camps and into forced labor.

Let us take a close look on how they manage the relation between some of their own lands and towards neutral villages.

Dirty haven and Brahmin wood - while they didn't like the deal they recognized it was better to be under brotherhood protection than at the raider's mercy. so mutual benefit deal.

Rock Falls - most raiders were put to internment camps. to forced labor or converted to brotherhood services. this (and with macomb's raiders) is the only true occasion the brotherhood applied force against a controlled village.

Peoria & junction city - while the brotherhood wanted their help they decided to remain on their own. The BoS respected that decision and didn't apply any kind of retribution, nor military nor economic ... they were just left alone. that proves the bos respects neutral settlement's autonomy and supremacy.

Quincy - The Brotherhood was trying to recruit Quincy even before the beastlords attack. If you think the brotherhood is "evil" because it took opportunity of the beastlords attack to get what it wants ... remember The warrior was sent to help Quincy without any official agreement of alliance since he was ordered to free the town despite the mayor answer. This assistance wasn't charity of course, it was a diplomatic move to acquire Quincy's friendship and convince the mayor of the Brotherhood invaluable services. while not altruistic it was neither a vile action ... it was a practical move, that sought to improve both the brotherhood (and furthermore quincy's) chance of survival in the wastes.

Springfield - The town was supposed to give resources in exchange for military protection against the enforcers (local gang). note that this town does not supply recruits only resources, a hint that the Midwest bos only requires what the town is willing to offer.

To resume - They encourage mutual beneficial agreements with the villages by offering protection in exchange for recruits/supplies. They Don't oppress the governments under their care, allowing the villages to maintain their own freedom and government. They Respect the neutral villages Independence. They Imprison only hostiles and enemies (outlaws, raiders and bandits) and puts them to force labor. We can't see at this point the negative trails that would turn the bos into the fascist regime because those factors would happen later on before the events of fallout tactics 2 but as i mentioned before isn't cannon.

Regarding the size and organization of the Midwest BoS ... There are 5 bunkers and 5 generals those are Gen. Dekker, Barnaky (replaced by the warrior), Clarice, Shaky and Slim. this perfect match means the military in every bunker is led by a General. Every bunker has an undefined number of squads (that goes from veteran to initiates) plus the personnel responsible to guard the bunker, what effectively demonstrate they have a considerable amount of personnel, without counting the civilians (elders and scribes) thus being a big organization.

The basic squad formation ... might be of six members, but that does not mean they will deliver just one squad for every mission ... in St Louis they deployed 5 squads (brimstone, demon, fang, talon and the warrior) 30 men, that in a post nuclear world is an army. on several occasions the warrior works along other squads ... grail squad in buena vista and dagger squad in the last battle. It seems they deliver the personnel needed to conclude each task. Considering the attrition rate of the initiate training is 85% this also means their soldiers are extremely well trained and a six squad members is more than enough to deal with most operations (as the warrior's squad proved to be true on numerous occasions)

They are a miniature, elitist faction organized more like a kingdom (with a king (General), his council (Elders), nobility (Paladins and high ranking Scribes and Knights) and subjects working and dying so that the elite can continue to stay in power. Hell, even the people under their control hate them (recall Coldwater?).

Nope .... They are an alternate version of the west-coast brotherhood rankings, nothing more.

First - the elders are on top not the generals (you can noticed that by the fact the commanding officer barnaky despite his prejudice for mutants couldn't deny mutant recruitment because the elders wanted it.)

Second - elders and scribes are civilians, they don't progress in hierarchy the same way the military branch does ... now there is no reference as how the elders are picked so it should be alike in the original brotherhood a mix of age factor and influence (other elders votes). their governmental structure offers some kind of balance between the military and civilian factions, pretty much like modern USA where the president is civilian and the secretary of defense a military man.

check it here http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel_ranks

Third - there is not enough reference that implies the BoS owned Cold waters, the mission was to retrieve stoles power armors used by Quincy bandits. The only BoS present in cold water, ma baker, wasn't enough to imply the brotherhood owned the town. just consider they had a whole squad stationed at brahmin wood after the warrior freed it and in cold water only one agent in cover.

As for considering the Midwest BoS as antagonist, well the idea isan't new but i think its not practical considering the point of what was declared as cannon and what wasn't ... in fallout extreme they would be the bad guys, and in fallout tactics two we would play as one of the bad guys ... however as it was defined that those events never happened and the midwest BoS was reduced to a bunker near chicago (probably bunker alpha, since it was there that the airship crashed) it would not, with the actual information, represent considerable danger to pose as main antagonist ... both western (original bos) and eastern (lyons) brotherhood would kick their arse ... hell i think even the outcasts could do that. Could be interesting however if the protagonist of a fallout game (prior to fallout 3) came from this rogue bunker. specially if we happen to see a reunion of this BoS and the original westcoast and the outcasts against the lyons brotherood. but again many middle factors ... like ncr and caesar legion.