Bush takes double digit lead

Meh, that's going to happen after a convention.

What matters now is the turnout on election day. Kerry has the numbers, kids just need to show up and vote.
 
No, he does'nt Malky, there's a reason Kerry got a 1-2 bump in the polls while Bush gets an 11 point one. It's entirely the opposite situation.
 
No, he does.

A lot of people, especially those my age, have not yet registered to vote and do not take part in polls. The majority of voters that are my age are anti-Bush, pro-Kerry (thankfully so).

But we shall see. Our country is so fucking stupid that Bush might just get another term.
 
What age are you? Cause I'm the norm here. We millineals are as much a ME generation as the baby boomers, so we vote Republicans so we can afford that extra 90$ Ralph Lauren shirt.

You're back in the days of Generation X man. I miss it, but it's gone.
 
I must agree with Malkavian...I do believe most of the people who dont take part in poles indeed hate Bush and most will vote Kerry...hey as long as they dont vote Bush, will win...I mean anyone with half a conscious or brain will not vote for Bush.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
But we shall see. Our country is so fucking stupid that Bush might just get another term.

I think this is more a reflection of Liberal America than the country at large if what you're suggesting is true. This Liberal Majority that keeps being hinted at doesn't seem to want to make itself known.

I do, by the way, live in the Bible Belt. I have no idea who to hit on.
 
Honestly, I am not so sure. There are a lot of young republicans out there who are willing to buy the nonsense. Lots of kids who are thinking the war on terrorism is the key issue.

Let's think about the Convention- prevailing message- Kerry is weak, Bush is strong, it's a war on terrorism and Bush will save your ass. We need a strong leader and that's Bush!

So it's playing on the 9-11 fear thing again.

Great- one party runs on a platform of fear, the other on progress.

We could continue on how much of what the Republicans said was bullshit (for example- http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/03/schwarzenegger.ap/index.html ), or how they had moderate speakers represent a conservative agenda, or how their one democrat epresents the pre-Vietnam democratic party more than the post-Vietnam democratic party.

But the thing for me is-
(1) Bush dropped the ball on terrorism before 9-11
(2) I, personally, am sick and tired of fear
(3) The guy is capitalizing on something he fucked up and catastrophe.
(4) The republican strength is not progress but character assassination. They have little in way of a real agenda.

It won't be until next week that the real results of the convention are seen. Each side overdramatizes it's bump up after the convention. Kerry has been quiet this week because that's what the other party does during the convention.

But even if the GOP lead is 8 or 10 points, it's significant. ANd the election is only really starting to get hot. Kerry needs to come out stronger.

Bush is playing to emotions more than logic- and that's pretty powerful.

One thing I will agree with Malk on- this is a good year to get those who don't normally vote active. If the democrats can get the non-voters involved, they can win this.
 
One thing I will agree with Malk on- this is a good year to get those who don't normally vote active. If the democrats can get the non-voters involved, they can win this.

Good luck on that. It'd be insanely difficult to convince the Liberal apathetic to vote for Bush-Lite.

The Democrats would have had a better chance trying to sway Green Party voters, but instead, they nominated Kerry.
 
So it's playing on the 9-11 fear thing again.
You're acting like Terrorism is'nt an issue.

Great- one party runs on a platform of fear, the other on progress.
Kerry's been a dove his entire carrer, people have every right to vote on fear of terrorism.

(1) Bush dropped the ball on terrorism before 9-11
Continued policies Clinton set up.....this was a long term fuckup.

2) I, personally, am sick and tired of fear
So move to Canada. Even under Kerry there's a likeylhood of terrorist attacks. You don't honestly belive that Moore shit that Terrorism is'nt all it's cracked up to be?

(3) The guy is capitalizing on something he fucked up and catastrophe.
No, of course not, he's capitalizing on how well he handeled it. People forget his poll numbers right after 9/11, and that was'nt just get-around-flag effect.

(4) The republican strength is not progress but character assassination. They have little in way of a real agenda.
Okay. Name something "progressive" Kerry talked about during the DNC. NAme a plan from the DNC. Name something besides a vauge promise and bullshit about his service in Vietnam. That's the only thing he dealed with.

It won't be until next week that the real results of the convention are seen. Each side overdramatizes it's bump up after the convention. Kerry has been quiet this week because that's what the other party does during the convention.
OR because he likes windsurfing too much.

Kerry had no bump from the convention. Bush has an 11 percent bump pre convention. Even Maher thinks he's fucked.

Bush is playing to emotions more than logic- and that's pretty powerful.
This is'nt the Enllightenment, this is the modern age. Everyone is playing on emotion. Fuck, just look at Kerry's backfired "OMFG FUCK YOU I WAS IN VIETNAM FOR THREE MONTHS" shtick. How the fuck does that have to do with anything?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5616183/
 
Progressive policies-

Ok, you mean rolling back the tax cuts on the top two percent and helping everyone get medical insurance?
Making an college education easier for people?
Actually funding federal mandates for a change instead of threatening schools with bankruptcy?
Equality for americans with disabilities, reformed immigration practices which are fair?
Better tax breaks for the middle class? More emphasis on education for high technology?
Reverse rollbacks on the Clean Water and Clean Air Acts?

There's more- you can see it here-

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

Are they as far left as Republicans would like you to believe?

Come on, CCR, Bush is making a stump speech out of being the guy who happened to be President on 9-11. Would Gore have done the same thing? Probably.

The guy is capitalizing on a human tragedy- and did he do that great a job?

If he had been doing a great job it wouldn't have happened. If you are to credit Bush for his leadership after 9-11 than you have to criticize him for his lack of leadership before 9-11. It doesn't matter what Clinton did- even if Clinton did try to take out Osama and Clinton did raise terrorism as a national security concern and if Bush ignored terrorism up to 9-11.

The thing that matters is that George Bush was the man in charge before 9-11 happened and it happened on his watch.

But there is no accountability, no one gets fired, no one says, "I fucked up."

Look, Clinton should have resigned when he committed purgery. Fair enough, because when you are President you are responsible for upholding the law.

But when you are PResident you are also responsible for maintaining the security of the country. You can't do that by ignoring your terrorism chief when he tells you things are pretty fucked up, and things could go bad. I mean Gary Hart said that a massive terrorist attack was coming a few weeks before 9-11. What the fuck was George doing? Thinking about going to war in Iraq.

And while he's going to war with Iraq- a state that wasn't attacking the US and had no connections to terrorists, North Korea gets nuclear weapons and the Iranian get off scott free.

(By the way, did you notice the Republicans saying that Iraq was just the beginning- who is next on George's hit list? Or is this merely a policy of maintaining the US on a continuous war footing?)

So the question then becomes- is George fighting the war of terrorism the right way.

He says, "Bring it on". God that's macho.

Look at Chechnya- Bring it On means that terrorists are invited to hit our schools, our malls, our churches. And I doubt there is enough money in the budget to provide that much security.

Frankly, George saying "Bring it On" when he's protected by an army of Secret Service guys is not that impressive. The guy who has to pay the price of his policies are the ones who impress me.

So we go to war with Iraq under dubious reasons. ANd don't get me wrong- personally I sympathize- there was little that could be done besides either drop the sanctions or kick out Saddam. Fine (and note that I am a minority on this position).

But the war has been a mess since we've taken over. "Mission Accomplished?" Don't think so. So the post-war reconstruction has been buttfucked and we are slowly losing control in Iraq. Afghanistan is mostly an after-thought and those are the guys that hit us, not the Iraqis.

So this war on terrorism and the Iraq policy is a fuck up. What Bush is pulling for is to remember the "rally around the flag" affect following 9-11 when everyone was willing to give him carte blanche to do whatever he wanted- leading to a war in Iraq, a Patriot Act and a huge deficit.

It's politics. George Bush profits when we are afraid. He knows that when a person is afraid they will look to the man in office to lead.

ANd it's impressive that he's strong willed and sticks to his convictions and does what he says and says what he feels. Wonderful- but what if he's strong willed, stubborn and consistent on the wrong policies?

That's the problem CCR- Bush has had four years to prove himself, and he's lacking.
 
There are a lot of young republicans out there who are willing to buy the nonsense. Lots of kids who are thinking the war on terrorism is the key issue.

I think you're wrong here, Welsh. There are many young Republicans who choose their party affiliation based on platform, not spin. Some of us legitimately prefer lower taxes and smaller government (though this hasn't been Bush's particular forte). Some of us actually are against abortion. To imply that we've been somehow deceived by war propaganda is to belittle our intelligence. Yes, smart people can disagree with you. (Pause for the joke about Bush's intelligence.)

If you watched the RNC (and I'm sure you did!), you would have heard about Bush's new initiative for helping small business owners provide their employees with health care. And the $250 million being spent on education and the $500 million to be spent on high-skill job training.
Helping everyone get medical insurance?
More emphasis on education for high technology?
Welsh, I think you're kind of making my argument for me.
As a Republican, I'll admit that Bush is not my ideal candidate--I think he spends too much on social initiatives to be a true condervative. (They've even got a new name: Compassionate Conservatives")

The thing about this election is that Kerry isn't really 'for' anything. He's running on the basis of "I'm not Bush." Well, great. But I'll always prefer the devil I know to the devil I don't. And Bush is nothing if not predictable. The man believes strongly in his convictions and is consistent in backing them up. Kerry is exactly the opposite. His position on issues changes daily.

What will decide this election is the war in Iraq, and the way in which people choose to view it. We went in looking for weapons of mass destruction, and we didn't find any. But we did find 450,000 people in mass graves. We did find Uday's 'pleasure' palace, where women were repetitively raped. We did give people the ability to peacefully express their opinions without fear of vicious reprisal.

Isn't humanitarianism supposed to be the realm of the liberals??
 
I think you're wrong here, Welsh. There are many young Republicans who choose their party affiliation based on platform, not spin. Some of us legitimately prefer lower taxes and smaller government (though this hasn't been Bush's particular forte). Some of us actually are against abortion. To imply that we've been somehow deceived by war propaganda is to belittle our intelligence. Yes, smart people can disagree with you. (Pause for the joke about Bush's intelligence.)

Ah ha! The darkone returns!

Well abortion is a dead issue in this election. No one is talking about it. Which is probably a godsend because it's been beaten to death.

As for lower taxes- the only ones who are suffering from higher taxes under Kerry's plan is the top 2%. Do they really need the tax breaks? At the same time Kerry is emphasizing skills training, education, and more support for middle and lower classes. Surely a bad thing if you are a member of the upper class, but not anyone else. Let's not forget that in the last bit of tax cuts, the only group of folks that didn't get the break were the ones that needed it most- the 15-20K folks.


Oh and speaking of young republicans-
Young Republicans Support Iraq War, but Not Willing to Join the Fight
By Adam Smeltz
Knight Ridder Newspapers

Wednsday 01 September 2004

NEW YORK - Young Republicans gathered here for their party's national convention are united in applauding the war in Iraq, supporting the U.S. troops there and calling the U.S. mission a noble cause.

But there's no such unanimity when they're asked a more personal question: Would you be willing to put on the uniform and go to fight in Iraq?

In more than a dozen interviews, Republicans in their teens and 20s offered a range of answers. Some have friends in the military in Iraq and are considering enlisting; others said they can better support the war by working politically in the United States; and still others said they think the military doesn't need them because the U.S. presence in Iraq is sufficient.

"Frankly, I want to be a politician. I'd like to survive to see that," said Vivian Lee, 17, a war supporter visiting the convention from Los Angeles,

Yes, I bet you do.

Lee said she supports the war but would volunteer only if the United States faced a dire troop shortage or "if there's another Sept. 11." [/qutoe]

Or maybe two, or three.....

"As long as there's a steady stream of volunteers, I don't see why I necessarily should volunteer," said Lee, who has a cousin deployed in the Middle East.

Or why should I fight when so many others are willing to be cannon fodder for me?

In an election season overwhelmed by memories of the Vietnam War, the U.S. military's newest war ranks supreme among the worries confronting much of Generation Y'ers. Iraq is their war.

"If there was a need presented, I would go," said Chris Cusmano, a 21-year-old member of the College Republicans organization from Rocky Point, N.Y. But he said he hasn't really considered volunteering.

Sure you did.

At age 16, Chase Carpenter has.

"It's always in the back of my mind - to enlist," Carpenter, a self-described moderate Republican visiting Manhattan this week from Santa Monica, Calif., said Wednesday on the convention floor. He said he's torn over whether he'd join the military if he were 18.

Others said they could contribute on the home front.

"I physically probably couldn't do a whole lot" in Iraq, said Tiffanee Hokel, 18, of Webster City, Iowa, who called the war a moral imperative. She knows people posted in Iraq, but she didn't flinch when asked why she wouldn't go.

"I think I could do more here," Hokel said, adding that she's focusing on political action that supports the war and the troops.

"We don't have to be there physically to fight it," she said.

Yes, you can stay home, eat Papa Johns and thank Lord Jesus Christ that you're not getting your ass shot at.

Similarly, 20-year-old Jeff Shafer, a University of Pennsylvania student, said vital work needs to be done in the United States. There are Republican policies to maintain and protect and an economy to sustain, Shafer said.

That's right- protest a planned parenthood center! Argue against those liberal (read commie) judges. Fight for School Vouchers! Poison the environment!

Then there's Paula Villescaz, a 15-year-old from Carmichael, Calif. who supports Bush and was all ears Wednesday afternoon at the GOP's Youth Convention in Madison Square Garden. She doesn't support the war, but she supports the troops and thinks the United States "needs to stay the course" now that it's immersed.

If Iraq is still a U.S. issue when she's 18, Villescaz added, she'll give serious thought to volunteering.

"I'm in college right now, but who knows?" said Matthew Vail, a 25-year-old from Huntsville, Ala., who works with Students for Bush. He said he might consider enlisting after he finishes his degree at the University of North Carolina, but not until then.

"The bug may get me after college," he said.

hmmmm..... THose crazy young repubicans.

If you watched the RNC (and I'm sure you did!), you would have heard about Bush's new initiative for helping small business owners provide their employees with health care. And the $250 million being spent on education and the $500 million to be spent on high-skill job training.

Yes, funny how that was in the Kerry platform before George ever mentioned it.
Helping everyone get medical insurance?
More emphasis on education for high technology?
Welsh, I think you're kind of making my argument for me.
As a Republican, I'll admit that Bush is not my ideal candidate--I think he spends too much on social initiatives to be a true condervative. (They've even got a new name: Compassionate Conservatives")

This is where you get in trouble with Bush. He lies. Now I can understand Republicans being pissed because Clinton lied. One has a higher expectation of a president. But Bush came in as a "Compassionate Conservative"
and then- prepared to take the country to war
-pumped up government spending and borrowing
-gave us a big deficit
-increased the size of government.

And this is compassionate conservative?

The thing about this election is that Kerry isn't really 'for' anything. He's running on the basis of "I'm not Bush." Well, great. But I'll always prefer the devil I know to the devil I don't. And Bush is nothing if not predictable. The man believes strongly in his convictions and is consistent in backing them up. Kerry is exactly the opposite. His position on issues changes daily.

I woudl agree that was generally true in the primaries, but not in the election. The thing is that the Republican are adopting parts of the Democratic platform.

And if Bush is predicatable, it is also predictable, it is predictable that he will continue to favor big business, favor tax cuts to the rich, favor deficits, favor more war and most of all, he'll continue to lie.

So there you go- support a president who relies on fear and lies to you and supports the profit of the richest 2% over the rest of the country or do you want to vote for a guy who gives a shit about the rest of the country?

What will decide this election is the war in Iraq, and the way in which people choose to view it. We went in looking for weapons of mass destruction, and we didn't find any. But we did find 450,000 people in mass graves. We did find Uday's 'pleasure' palace, where women were repetitively raped. We did give people the ability to peacefully express their opinions without fear of vicious reprisal.

But if we were serious about removing brutal dictators we would have deployed troops in Liberia when we had the chance. Instead we stood by and kept them offshore. The world is full of nasty dictators. Is it a coincidence that the one we take out is the one that sits on the 2nd largest oil field and who took a shot at Dubbya's Daddy?

ANd like I said elsewhere, I really don't mind that Bush went into Iraq. What I mind is that he botched it so badly. We are neglecting the real badguys of 9-11 by making afghanistan a sideshow, and we are slowly losing control of Iraq.
Isn't humanitarianism supposed to be the realm of the liberals??

It is, but supporting Israeli policy carte blanche vis-a-vis the palestinians isn't exactly humanitarianism or compassionate. Dropping cluster bombs on Iraqi civilians isn't that humanitarian either.

The issue- are you willing to vote for a Senator with a distinguished record in the Senate who supports policies for middle and working class people and is saying that America's leadership comes with working with allies, or do you want to trust a former Governor who supports the top 2% and is willing to sustain a country divided by religion and privilege who has alienated most of our allies and has consistently lied to us.

The question- has George done a good enough job to stay in office or is it time for a change?
 
Do they really need the tax breaks?

I'd rather ask do they really deserve the tax breaks? I would say, yes, as it is money they've earned. Are those in the Middle Classes more entitled to tax breaks because they only live in relative splendor?

At the same time Kerry is emphasizing skills training, education, and more support for middle and lower classes. Surely a bad thing if you are a member of the upper class, but not anyone else.

Chances are, as a member of the top 2% you are an employer on some level. Higher skill training is a good thing from the employer's standpoint, as it makes the job market more competitive. The more higher skilled workers there are, the harder they'll be willing to work to attain, and hold, a job.

If you're not an employer, then it doesn't really affect you.

As for lower taxes- the only ones who are suffering from higher taxes under Kerry's plan is the top 2%.

Ha. I'd say that proportionally, the people that suffer the most under higher taxes are those in the Middle Class. What's 30,000 to a millionaire compared to 2000 for those earning 5 figures? Unless, of course, you're saying that the rich are being taxed exclusively, which I wouldn't call very just.

Let's not forget that in the last bit of tax cuts, the only group of folks that didn't get the break were the ones that needed it most- the 15-20K folks.

People earning poverty wages shouldn't be paying taxes as it is. Is Kerry going to actually stop taxing the poor or is he simply going to hand out rich people's money?

Oh and speaking of young republicans

And what does that have to do with anything? People shouldn't have to want to join the military in order to support its actions. With that kind of thinking, the only people that should be able to vote are servicemen and veterans.

Is there something inherently wrong about wanting to accomplish something better than military service?

Or why should I fight when so many others are willing to be cannon fodder for me?

And what does this have to do with Young Republicans being gullible? Do you think that young people should be naturally liberal? That leftist thinking is the only logical way to go?

I'm sure you'd also think that Black people and Gays should only vote Democrat, despite the existence of Black Republicans, and the Log Cabin Republicans. Are shit faced rednecks only supposed to vote Republican? Are they unworthy of the NDP?

Moral Relativism.
Yak-Yak.
Hypocrites.
Fools.

Do you think that news articles represent the whole? How would you feel if I said that all war protestors were bright-eyed foolish optimists that have no idea how the world works? That certainly seems to be how they're portrayed on the news and radio. Obviously we should trust the media to dictate demographic stereotypes.

Yes, funny how that was in the Kerry platform before George ever mentioned it.

And?

And this is compassionate conservative?

I could use Kerry's voting record to illustrate him as neither progressive, nor liberal, but I guess we should just take his word for it that he changes his opinions because he honestly believes what he says instead of simply doing so for political convenience.

Then again, I've already done it in a previous thread.

And if Bush is predicatable, it is also predictable, it is predictable that he will continue to favor big business, favor tax cuts to the rich, favor deficits, favor more war and most of all, he'll continue to lie.

And people that vote for Bush have all of these things in mind. Obviously to you, these are bad things, however, you are not Republican.

But if we were serious about removing brutal dictators we would have deployed troops in Liberia when we had the chance. Instead we stood by and kept them offshore. The world is full of nasty dictators. Is it a coincidence that the one we take out is the one that sits on the 2nd largest oil field and who took a shot at Dubbya's Daddy?

This I do agree with, as the humanitarian benefits were presented as bonus points rather than the main focus of the war, which is the issue here.

Yes, there were MANY reasons for going into Iraq, and I'm sure Clinton could list several. However, Bush and Pals focused on Terrorism/WMDs. Points which turned out to be wrong. They should be held accountable for their mistakes, instead of allowing them to get away with claiming the reasons that lacked buzz appeal.

It is, but supporting Israeli policy carte blanche vis-a-vis the palestinians isn't exactly humanitarianism or compassionate.

It should be noted, then, that Kerry was furious when we abstained to vote on the UN Resolution condemning Israel for building that wall.

The issue- are you willing to vote for a Senator with a distinguished record in the Senate who supports policies for middle and working class people and is saying that America's leadership comes with working with allies, or do you want to trust a former Governor who supports the top 2% and is willing to sustain a country divided by religion and privilege who has alienated most of our allies and has consistently lied to us.

And here, good reader, is an example of someone who has come to believe his own spin.

No offense, Welsh. But it does seem as if you can't accept opposing opinions.
 
a little off subject but who gives a flying shit what stupid college students who claim to be rebublicans say or think?
 
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
What age are you? Cause I'm the norm here. We millineals are as much a ME generation as the baby boomers, so we vote Republicans so we can afford that extra 90$ Ralph Lauren shirt.

You're back in the days of Generation X man. I miss it, but it's gone.

What the fuck are you talking about? You were like 5 years old during the days of "Generation X"
 
Malkavian said:
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
What age are you? Cause I'm the norm here. We millineals are as much a ME generation as the baby boomers, so we vote Republicans so we can afford that extra 90$ Ralph Lauren shirt.

You're back in the days of Generation X man. I miss it, but it's gone.

What the fuck are you talking about? You were like 5 years old during the days of "Generation X"
Yeah, that's true. I meant more Grunge leftover that's finally gone.

Where are you anyway?
 
My Location said:
Waynesboro, Virginia

Shenandoah Valley. Mid-south-western VA. Pretty conservative, 'til we get over the mountain and into Welsh's neck of the woods.
 
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