Can someone explain this expired ID thing?

[Sander]

Its a waste of my time to get something that will look exactly like something I already have just with a different expatriation date, only to renew it again when I get a change of address in the next year or so. I was more interested in seeing if someone can come up with a valid argument against this or a loop hole. Instead of "just get an ID because the system that is flawed tells you to do it" responses I'm getting.

Because if they don't require you to renew your ID, it leaves open loopholes with multiple valid IDs of the same person out there.

Say someone steals your ID. Because of the expiration date, he'll only be able to use it for a limited time. That's why.

I can prove beyond a responsible doubt that I am in fact the person in my ID for none driving purposes and be denied alcohol and cigarettes because an ID is expired

The law wasn't made for your specific individual situation, it was made for a general situation.

 

[Blakut]

Better yet, use your expired ID when the police asks for some identification. If they give you a fine sue them and win, thus making a law that expired IDs are still valid...

 

[The Goon]

I was fucked up last night and asked a cop. From what I can remember he said something like this: there are two kinds of laws, laws that actually enforced and laws that are just there. Underage drinking is on the agenda again so they plan on attacking the fake id market by giving merchant harsher fines who knowingly accept fake ids and invalid ids. The merchants are now paranoid and rather not risk the fine. Consequently, the fake/invalid ids become useless. Thats the theory anyway.

 

[Tagaziel]

Its a waste of my time to get something that will look exactly like something I already have just with a different expatriation date, only to renew it again when I get a change of address in the next year or so. I was more interested in seeing if someone can come up with a valid argument against this or a loop hole. Instead of "just get an ID because the system that is flawed tells you to do it" responses I'm getting.

Maybe that's because the vast majority of the users here understand certain basic concepts you fail to grasp.

 

[Brother None]

This thread is really kind of bizarre.

 

[Sander]

Better yet, use your expired ID when the police asks for some identification. If they give you a fine sue them and win

Eh, I don't think you understand laws. In other words: when you break laws and are punished for it, you don't win by suing the government.

 

[Blakut]

In other words: when you break laws and are punished for it, you don't win by suing the government.

Yeah you do, if you prove the law is useless. Which is not the case here... but this is how i thought things are done in the us legal system. Laws arise from court decisions...?


Would a store get fined for selling an expired product? Even it is one day over the limit and the product is still good to eat? Why do you think that happens?

 

[Sander]

Yeah you do, if you prove the law is useless.

Eh, no, you don't. That's not how the legal system in most Western societies works. Judges are there to execute laws, not to change them. If you break a law, the judge can't say "Well the law is stupid so you're off the hook", they have to enforce the laws as they are written.

Which is not the case here... but this is how i thought things are done in the us legal system. Laws arise from court decisions...?

The British system has something similar to that, but it's a lot more complicated and judges still don't ignore established practice.

 

[Blakut]

If you break a law, the judge can't say "Well the law is stupid so you're off the hook", they have to enforce the laws as they are written.

Nope, that would be the police, they enforce the law as it is written. Judges decide if what you did was or was not in accordance with the spirit of the law.

The British system has something similar to that, but it's a lot more complicated and judges still don't ignore established practice.

Ok, i was thinking along the lines where one PROVES a law is not good or is phased out or something. In court.

 

[Sander]

Nope, that would be the police, they enforce the law as it is written. Judges decide if what you did was or was not in accordance with the spirit of the law.

Fine, not enforce but implement or rule according to the law. Regardless, they cannot make laws or change laws.

Ok, i was thinking along the lines where one PROVES a law is not good or is phased out or something. In court.

I don't even know how you would do that.
But even if you could prove that, it's still not relevant to a judge. No matter who asinine or stupid a law is, it's still a law, and a judge is not allowed to ignore laws.

 

[Sephis]

First of all renewing ID benefits everyone, sorry if once in awhile you need to go pay for it and spend your valuable time as well.

I thought judges decided the legality of issues. (Why would you want to hurt our police departments with crap like that anyway?)

Besides providing bad ID is a reasonable thing to get in trouble for.

 

[Arr0nax]

Nope, that would be the police, they enforce the law as it is written. Judges decide if what you did was or was not in accordance with the spirit of the law.

Fine, not enforce but implement or rule according to the law. Regardless, they cannot make laws or change laws.

No, but they can set precedents on how to interpret the law in a particular case, that will bound future decisions.
Which is basically what Blakut was speaking about, even if the example we are talking about here is a dumb one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedents

 

[TheWesDude]

why hasnt this been vatted yet?

 

[Sander]

No, but they can set precedents on how to interpret the law in a particular case, that will bound future decisions.
Which is basically what Blakut was speaking about, even if the example we are talking about here is a dumb one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedents

Of course. But they still have to interpret the law as is, they don't get to make up whether a law is valid or not. If a law says unambiguously that expired IDs are invalid as a means of identification, then that pretty much settles it.

why hasnt this been vatted yet?

Because it's an ongoing conversation that isn't spammy and isn't hurting anyone.

 

[Blakut]

If a law says unambiguously that expired IDs are invalid as a means of identification, then that pretty much settles it.

Laws are never unambiguously. That's why we need lawyers and stuch...

 

[Sander]

Laws are never unambiguously. That's why we need lawyers and stuch...

Laws try to be as unambiguous as possible. But, again, even if the laws are slightly ambiguous, that doesn't mean judges are free to put whatever meaning that they want there.

 

[The Goon]

It also has to do with what a "reasonable person" would do in that situation. Who is this "reasonable person"? I don't know. However, a merchant can probably get a fine dropped if they can prove beyond a tilt of a doubt that the person they served with an expired ID was in fact the person in the ID. Like lets say I opened up a tab on my credit card and show them my college ID. Yet, If the merchant in a "reasonable person" then they would probably not risk wasting their time going to court over tip money.

Here is a question for anyone that ever bar-tended: Is it mandatory to card patrons that are regulars?

 

[Sander]

It also has to do with what a "reasonable person" would do in that situation. Who is this "reasonable person"? I don't know. However, a merchant can probably get a fine dropped if they can prove beyond a tilt of a doubt that the person they served with an expired ID was in fact the person in the ID.

Even if they can prove that (which they can't anyway), that doesn't excuse them breaking the law.
If the law says 'person must be in possession of legal ID to be sold alcohol' (note: I don't know if it does), then how does that help the merchant?
Moreover, why would they be willing to risk that on behalf of some random customer?

 

[The Goon]

I said they probably wouldn't:

Yet, If the merchant in a "reasonable person" then they would probably not risk wasting their time going to court over tip money.

Lets say I go into a bar and all the staff knows me. I have been going there for like 2 years or w/e and never get carded anymore. They all know I am of age do you think they should get fined? Like, I can show a my credit card bill from drinking at that place while my id was not expired. By not carding me they are taking on liability but they know that I am of age to drink.

 

[Sephis]

I said they probably wouldn't:

Yet, If the merchant in a "reasonable person" then they would probably not risk wasting their time going to court over tip money.

Lets say I go into a bar and all the staff knows me. I have been going there for like 2 years or w/e and never get carded anymore. They all know I am of age do you think they should get fined? Like, I can show a my credit card bill from drinking at that place while my id was not expired. By not carding me they are taking on liability but they know that I am of age to drink.

If they are legally obligated to card people who look a certain age and give alcohol to an invalid ID yes they should face fines. But you didn't make this topic about this, you made it because you think it's an uncesscary hassle.