Canada says go home to American Deserter-

[calculon000]

Besides which, what argument does he have for the war being illegal?

The law in the US, under the Constitution stipulates that the highest law is the Constitution itself, then international, then federal law and then state law- barring conflicts of federalism.

The United States signed the UN Convention and numerous other laws that have basically said the the US will not launch wars in violation of the UN Convention.

 

[Brother None]

the Iraqi war has never been labelled illegal by any high court or body within the United Nations. As such, it is not illegal. Ipso facto, bitch.

Welcome to international law.

 

[Bradylama]

I'm aware that the issue is the legality of the war in regards to UN conventions, but what is the argument for why it should be illegal. In case you didn't notice, it was.

Beat me again, eh Kharn? First was the difference between confident guys and assholes, so that's two in one day.

 

[calculon000]

Sorry, I guess I mis-interpreted you. I think that that since the guy signed up for voluntary military service, then he should have to carry out it's terms, as it not like it's cruel or unusual punishment, just the service he volunteered for. Maybe he should have thought of having to fight a war he didn't believe in before he signed up. When his service ends, then he can object conscientiously all he wants.

 

[welsh]

There has been no world court opinion on this and the Security Council may have the right to make policies, but it doesn't have the power to declare it legal. Therefore acts of the Security Council itself may contravene international law.

What makes that even more complicated is that there are few forums that can declare that. Even Iraq would probably not raise a claim of the war's illegality unless it, as a sovereign state, raised the claim. Generally speaking, only sovereigns can raise a case at the ICJ.

That leaves national courts. Canada could make a decision whether the war was illegal based on it's own legal understanding of international law.

Maybe it's worthwhile for them to debate this.

Is it? What would the Canadians have to gain from granting deserters asylum? Can you argue the legality of foreign law?

Canada has often been a place were asylum seekers denied in the US may find refuge. Furthermore by granting a desert asylum it would have the right to declare one's own rules.

A notion of international law is that a person has the right to avail themselves of the legal protections of a country they happen to be in. Asylum is an opportunity for the country to protect a person's life by virtue that the person is within that state's jurisdiction.

I think the reason the case was dismissed so readily was because he does not have a case. Using asylum seekers to argue the legality of a war isn't a smart decision legally or politically.

It seems his appeal for asylum had to do with his nationality not his case.

Besides which, what argument does he have for the war being illegal?

The rules that stipulate in Article 4(2) of the UN Charter that say that countries will not launch aggressive war. THe rules that say no preemptive law.

 

[Elric]

In our case, the war was legal. Period. He has no argument for deserting the army.

You know, I thought id answer to you and Kharn with some nazi-u.s. analogy full of witty sarcasm, but it would be a waste of humor.
It's so funny to see you unitedstatists always complain at how much other people hate you and what horrible tragedies your people is suffering, sob sob, sigh.
First, you've seen nothing, compared to what happens daily in other places.
Second, if you can't take the heat of power-play, stop playing the cold war with the "terrorists".
Third, your country is not free.

You have to rule the world cause you're afraid someone's gonna get to you and make you eat shit. You're afraid of that because you know you can expect a lot of freaky shit when you do a lot of freaky shit to others.
So, if most intelligent people outside U.S. tend to not give a fuck about the two fucking towers, it must be because the "tragedy" doesn't mean anything to us. We really don't care. You fuck people you don't know in the ass (especially stupid religious fanatics whom you just sold a shitload of weapons - you U.S.ists seem to get along with the kind), that's what you get, pal.

We see violence caused by the U.S. and the reactions to it. Should I declare the U.S. good or evil? I don't care, but I care about people who try to make a choice for their lives, and see the choice denied by a regime, because it disgusting.
Instead, you are dripping propaganda whenever you open your mouth, the system has gotten to you and you are happy of it.

Hooray for the saviors of the world!

 

[welsh]

blah... blah... blah.....Second, if you can't take the heat of power-play, stop playing the cold war with the "terrorists".
Third, your country is not free.

You have to rule the world cause you're afraid someone's gonna get to you and make you eat shit. You're afraid of that because you know you can expect a lot of freaky shit when you do a lot of freaky shit to others.

When can you name a period in the world when the powerless didn't eat shit from the powerful? If you were in power, wouldn't it be in your interest to stay that way?

That said, the reason why the US has turned to more brutal means to reinforce it's dominance is because it's dominance is already slipping away and with desperation comes fear, and with fear comes violence.

So, if most intelligent people outside U.S. tend to not give a fuck about the two fucking towers, it must be because the "tragedy" doesn't mean anything to us. We really don't care. You fuck people you don't know in the ass (especially stupid religious fanatics whom you just sold a shitload of weapons - you U.S.ists seem to get along with the kind), that's what you get, pal.

Didn't get the whole "stupid religious fanatics whom you just sold a shitload of weapons" thing. Could you make more sense of it.

We see violence caused by the U.S. and the reactions to it. Should I declare the U.S. good or evil? I don't care, but I care about people who try to make a choice for their lives, and see the choice denied by a regime, because it disgusting.
Instead, you are dripping propaganda whenever you open your mouth, the system has gotten to you and you are happy of it.

Hooray for the saviors of the world!

If you're point is that the US needs to see beyond it's own propaganda, and that Americans have got to be a bit more objective about itself and it's history, I'm cool with that.

 

[Bradylama]

You know, I thought id answer to you and Kharn with some nazi-u.s. analogy full of witty sarcasm, but it would be a waste of humor.

A waste of humor, or a waste of my time?

I like how you made the jump from "he has no case for desertion" to "USA-ALL THE WAY! SUCK MY DICK! MAKE YOU PAY!"

 

[Dapper Dan Man]

In our case, the war was legal. Period. He has no argument for deserting the army.

You know, I thought id answer to you and Kharn with some nazi-u.s. analogy full of witty sarcasm, but it would be a waste of humor.
It's so funny to see you unitedstatists always complain at how much other people hate you and what horrible tragedies your people is suffering, sob sob, sigh.
First, you've seen nothing, compared to what happens daily in other places.
Second, if you can't take the heat of power-play, stop playing the cold war with the "terrorists".
Third, your country is not free.

You have to rule the world cause you're afraid someone's gonna get to you and make you eat shit. You're afraid of that because you know you can expect a lot of freaky shit when you do a lot of freaky shit to others.
So, if most intelligent people outside U.S. tend to not give a fuck about the two fucking towers, it must be because the "tragedy" doesn't mean anything to us. We really don't care. You fuck people you don't know in the ass (especially stupid religious fanatics whom you just sold a shitload of weapons - you U.S.ists seem to get along with the kind), that's what you get, pal.

We see violence caused by the U.S. and the reactions to it. Should I declare the U.S. good or evil? I don't care, but I care about people who try to make a choice for their lives, and see the choice denied by a regime, because it disgusting.
Instead, you are dripping propaganda whenever you open your mouth, the system has gotten to you and you are happy of it.

Hooray for the saviors of the world!

I love thoughtful, informative posts with good manners and grammar! You already derailed the original topic of the thread, but hey, that is fine. Normally I would spend a lot of time crafting a decent, well meaning, proper letter to you. Not right now, you just aren't worth the effort of attempting to engage you in intellectual debate.

Propaganda is neither the creation of, nor perpetuated by, America alone. I don't know what wonderful non-US paradise you come from boy-o, but nope, no I don't shed a single tear for you either. Why if you fell off the edge of the world right now I probably would go right on with my day.

Seen nothing? That's because we don't let people fuck around with us in that way willingly. We don't *see* anything because yes, we fight to be the regional hegemon. As "realpolitik" demands, what the United States is doing is perfectly correct and indeed moral in doing. As for the overused Nazi reference; what country are YOU from you sanctimonious prick? I would love to know, really, so I could completely tear into it and prove that whatever misguided notions you possess of moral superiority are limper than a non-Viagra Bob Dole.

Free country? Who says? You live in these parts? Or are you part of the vast EU superstate which absorbs all its constuent states into a bureaucratic nightmare? Sure the United States isn't "free", but I'll challenge you to provide a nation that is. Anarchy might suffice, that is, if you can stand sleeping with a gun by your bed every night. Freedom.

Stupid religious nuts? I hate religion again, and yes, I am American. Wow, you know that maybe half the country voted for the OTHER guy last election, retard? Maybe a lot of us don't WANT us in Iraq or spread out helping ingrate nations with problems we shouldn't have to care about? Why dont we jsut cut all foreign aid, all humanitarian aid, all the support to the Un that we send and get a real rip-roaring police state going and make Fortress America a reality.


Boo hoo, we can't all be angsty teens in our Che t-shirts shaking angry fists at "The Man". You want to be taken seriously, learn to elucidate.

Hoo-ray for the US! May we long keep trouncing pricks like you into the ground beneath our jackboots and eagle wings!

 

[Bradylama]

I don't know what wonderful non-US paradise you come from boy-o,

Italy. Which, oddly enough, comes as no surprise.

Wow, you know that maybe half the country voted for the OTHER guy last election, retard?

If I may interject, its not like religious nuts were the only people voting for the "other guy" or that all religious nuts voted for the same guy as well (some voted for Buchanan :'D).

 

[Sovz]

as someone who worked in the Canadian immigration business, I can say he made several fatal mistakes that effected his claim.

one of which is claiming refugee in Toronto and not Montreal.

 

[welsh]

Ok Sovz- you have caught me. This thread really was directed to Canadians. Please elaborate the difference of Toronto and Montreal. The whole Quebec difference.

 

[Elric]

As "realpolitik" demands, what the United States is doing is perfectly correct and indeed moral in doing.

Choose one: realpolitik or moral. Because they're 2 different things. But seeing the rest of your post, and how you answered me that's either too complex for you to understand, or you really don't care and simply want to flame me, personally.

what country are YOU from you sanctimonious prick?

Insults? are they moral or realpolitikally useful? Btw, Italy, but I don't consider myself italian. I know about regimes. Here we have one now (and that explains the great friendship with your country) and we invented fascism almost 90 years ago. Bush and Saddam should pay royalties to the italian government.

Stupid religious nuts? I hate religion again, and yes, I am American. Wow, you know that maybe half the country voted for the OTHER guy last election, retard

I'm a retard? How do you know? You saw me around? You know me? What the fuck has that to do with the topic? You insult people that don't share your ideas? Can it be done, according to the rules of the Forum? Someone tell me, so that I can answer properly to this guy.

Boo hoo, we can't all be angsty teens in our Che t-shirts shaking angry fists at "The Man". You want to be taken seriously, learn to elucidate.

angsty: yes, I am

teen: no I'm not

Che t-shirt: haven't any; nice equation-> "against U.S. gov = communist!" Burn the witch!

shaking angry fist at "The Man": no, but I like to shake my penis at girls strolling down the park. My habits concern you? You a stalker?

Considering I haven't elucidated, you took a lot of conclusions about my post, as if it was perfectly clear. If it wasn't just say so. If it was improper, ignore it or tell the mods to ban me. I don't think I have insulted anyone specifically by talking about geopolitical themes. But if I did, I apologize, though I don't exactly know why, nor to who. I didn't want to offend anyone.

Hoo-ray for the US! May we long keep trouncing pricks like you into the ground beneath our jackboots and eagle wings!

Insults again, and menaces? Man, you're too nationalistic (with all due respect - but how much is due, I won't say), if you're takin this that seriously, you got issues...

When can you name a period in the world when the powerless didn't eat shit from the powerful? If you were in power, wouldn't it be in your interest to stay that way?

Maybe, but then let's just not discuss morals when talking about politics. It's part of the game to force people to do war if they volounteered in the army before the war started, but it's not right nor moral nor fair nor anything even remotely 'good'.
Can you agree on that?

Didn't get the whole "stupid religious fanatics whom you just sold a shitload of weapons" thing. Could you make more sense of it.

For exemple, the weapons sold both to Iran and Iraq during their conflict, by american istitutional sources. I was talking about that.

If you're point is that the US needs to see beyond it's own propaganda, and that Americans have got to be a bit more objective about itself and it's history, I'm cool with that.

Then we're cool. Cool!

A waste of humor, or a waste of my time?

I like how you made the jump from "he has no case for desertion" to "USA-ALL THE WAY! SUCK MY DICK! MAKE YOU PAY!"

Waste of both, maybe.

I realize I lacked tact and most importantly a point, perhaps. Sorry bout that.

Again, I hope nobody takes anything too personal...

 

[Bradylama]

Maybe, but then let's just not discuss morals when talking about politics. It's part of the game to force people to do war if they volounteered in the army before the war started, but it's not right nor moral nor fair nor anything even remotely 'good'.
Can you agree on that?

Yes, people can agree on that, but its hardly the issue.

For exemple, the weapons sold both to Iran and Iraq during their conflict, by american istitutional sources. I was talking about that.

Hair Today, Gone Tomorrow. Allies are never permanent. But then, you're Italian. You should know that better than anyone.

No offense taken, really. You just threw a pretty big curveball into the discussion.

 

[Dapper Dan Man]

As "realpolitik" demands, what the United States is doing is perfectly correct and indeed moral in doing.

Choose one: realpolitik or moral. Because they're 2 different things. But seeing the rest of your post, and how you answered me that's either too complex for you to understand, or you really don't care and simply want to flame me, personally.

what country are YOU from you sanctimonious prick?

Insults? are they moral or realpolitikally useful? Btw, Italy, but I don't consider myself italian. I know about regimes. Here we have one now (and that explains the great friendship with your country) and we invented fascism almost 90 years ago. Bush and Saddam should pay royalties to the italian government.

Stupid religious nuts? I hate religion again, and yes, I am American. Wow, you know that maybe half the country voted for the OTHER guy last election, retard

I'm a retard? How do you know? You saw me around? You know me? What the fuck has that to do with the topic? You insult people that don't share your ideas? Can it be done, according to the rules of the Forum? Someone tell me, so that I can answer properly to this guy.

Boo hoo, we can't all be angsty teens in our Che t-shirts shaking angry fists at "The Man". You want to be taken seriously, learn to elucidate.

angsty: yes, I am

teen: no I'm not

Che t-shirt: haven't any; nice equation-> "against U.S. gov = communist!" Burn the witch!

shaking angry fist at "The Man": no, but I like to shake my penis at girls strolling down the park. My habits concern you? You a stalker?

Considering I haven't elucidated, you took a lot of conclusions about my post, as if it was perfectly clear. If it wasn't just say so. If it was improper, ignore it or tell the mods to ban me. I don't think I have insulted anyone specifically by talking about geopolitical themes. But if I did, I apologize, though I don't exactly know why, nor to who. I didn't want to offend anyone.

Hoo-ray for the US! May we long keep trouncing pricks like you into the ground beneath our jackboots and eagle wings!

Insults again, and menaces? Man, you're too nationalistic (with all due respect - but how much is due, I won't say), if you're takin this that seriously, you got issues...

When can you name a period in the world when the powerless didn't eat shit from the powerful? If you were in power, wouldn't it be in your interest to stay that way?

Maybe, but then let's just not discuss morals when talking about politics. It's part of the game to force people to do war if they volounteered in the army before the war started, but it's not right nor moral nor fair nor anything even remotely 'good'.
Can you agree on that?

Didn't get the whole "stupid religious fanatics whom you just sold a shitload of weapons" thing. Could you make more sense of it.

For exemple, the weapons sold both to Iran and Iraq during their conflict, by american istitutional sources. I was talking about that.

If you're point is that the US needs to see beyond it's own propaganda, and that Americans have got to be a bit more objective about itself and it's history, I'm cool with that.

Then we're cool. Cool!

A waste of humor, or a waste of my time?

I like how you made the jump from "he has no case for desertion" to "USA-ALL THE WAY! SUCK MY DICK! MAKE YOU PAY!"

Waste of both, maybe.

I realize I lacked tact and most importantly a point, perhaps. Sorry bout that.

Again, I hope nobody takes anything too personal...

Actually the whole point of my post was to show you exactly how annoying it is to characterize or caricature another based solely on where they come from.

No, I didn't take it personal (I would be a gibbering wreck if I tooke verything on the Internet personally), and I am glad you took the time to analyze your position a bit more. If you read other posts of mine elsewhere in the forum, you will find that this one is not "like me" for a reason. It served to prove a point, which apparently you got and thus apologized for.

In the spirit of things, I apologize for my attacks upon you. It was uncalled for, though it was a bitter and wholly emotional response to what I felt was a needless US-bashing flame that took the conversation off on a wild tangent.

As for my own personal opinions, I hardly share the whole of them online with people on a message board. If you ever actually want to know what I feel about this or that subject, PM me or something.

 

[Sovz]

Ok Sovz- you have caught me. This thread really was directed to Canadians. Please elaborate the difference of Toronto and Montreal. The whole Quebec difference.

As someone who been trough the Canadian refugee system, I can definitely say that the guy made too many mistakes. But I'll do the explanations (if I wont forget) when I’ll get to work tomorrow.

But… consider this:
Toronto is more biased toward US politics while the Quebec system has more or less independent mind of its own (they will do some stuff just to piss Ottawa).
Since the poor guys case was OVER PUBLICIZED, Montréal was more likely to accept his claim rather then Toronto.

Some statistics if you are interested:

http://www.ocasi.org/sys/report_detail.asp?ReportID=110


He’ll probably submit an appeal. (3-4 months)
And then file an H&C (humanitarian and companionate) application.
But my guess its just time stalling.


PS
since I work for those guys www.paceimmigration.com I might actually know what I’m talking about.

 

[TheWesDude]

1) he voulenteered for the US armed services. he was not forced.

2) any order or directive to go to war by the president can only be over-ridden/deemed illegal by 3 things. a) congress b) US supreme court c) UN. and im pretty sure if the UN declares a war to be illegal, we dont have to pay attention to it.

3) if he wants to avoid it, then canada is a good place to "defect/desert" to as it doesnt take an international flight to france, and they are extremely pacifistic. how many canadians in comparative % went to afghanistan or the yougoslav area.

4) with all the way they call the iraqi thing a "war" they still observe the ROE. under real-war situation the ROE are a huge hindrance as your enemy isnt restricted/restrained by them but we are... almost makes me think that the people "running" this war think its a game of stratego or risk where its all about plastic figures rather than real people.

 

[Bradylama]

how many canadians in comparative % went to afghanistan or the yougoslav area.

Considering what Armed Forces they have? A considerable amount.

 

[Elric]

...im pretty sure if the UN declares a war to be illegal, we dont have to pay attention to it.

Why?

almost makes me think that the people "running" this war think its a game of stratego or risk where its all about plastic figures rather than real people.

That's probably what they think, yes. And who wins, gets the oil.