Cencorship and the Internet.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    It sucks. I cant say it with different words cause I call it almost a clear cencorship. I know some will disagre (for a valid reason which I respect), but what I am talking about is the meaning behind it how easy "some" content can be blocked to a specific group of users.

    What I am talking about is the block of certain sites when you browse the internet cause you are living in a area or part of your country where the gouvernement or companies limit your view.

    I am not talking about China, Korea, Russia or anything. No its Germany.

    To elaborate, since Youtube went in to a argument with the GEMA it now is for a person browsing from Germany not possible to "see" videos that have a conection with the GEMA anymore to make it short as they believe artists supported by the GEMA get cheated in some way. So you have no acces to those videos if aou are not working in some way around it (there are ways which I will not explain now though).

    YouTube now pulls music videos out of Germany
    The thing is just that even in a liberal nation like Germany you have definetly tools that allowe for cencorship. So did I heard for example from serious sources that certain German states do for example block certain links completely so they are not available if you just browse with your IP located in that part of Germany. Now if you think about some fascistic content this might be at one point "understandable", but who does control what is in content and information a "issue"? Who is in charge to decide that this website needs to be cencored and blocked while others not? Why do certain states block some sites when others do not ? Where is the sense behind this?

    I dont want to say that I am afraid, but I definetly think that it is a evolution and trend I definetly do not welcome. And dont want to support.

    Though how is it in other states? Whats the stiuation in, Croatia? USA? Canada? What is your oppinion? Do you think the Internet does indeed need some regulation? by the Gouvernement? Or should a sane, grown up person not decide for him self what is a "valuable" information and what not?
  2. Radwaster

    Radwaster It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 1, 2009
    Same blocking of YouTube music in the UK at the moment, for the same reason (royalties).

    Crni Vuk wrote:
    As more and more governments catch up with the methods for blocking the free flow of information on the internet, surprise! More and more governments do just that.
    Control of information is control.
    Up to internet users to keep one step ahead as long as they can. It sucks, yeah.
  3. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Yeh, I wonder how long it will take until they will block political websites and other stuff in germany. The (more or less) funny thing is, that it all looks like the thing we got approx 70 years ago. Just a bit different and more modern.

    Of course, the censorhip is only to our best because of childpr0n and terrorism.
  4. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    I don't see how that's censorship, YouTube didn't sign adeal with the GEMA, so it doesn't broadcast music.

    There are alternatives to YouTube.
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Not what the GEMA wants to achieve is cencorship, but the way it is approached. In some parts of Europe we now dont have access to certain videos while the rest of the world (where the GEMA has no meaning) people have no issues to watch anything related to it. If what the GEMA wants is now right or not is one thing but that you can relatively easy block one "part" of the world out is what gives me thoughts. Its just a example about how tools of informations can be restricted heavily. I dont see what the issue was with Youtube before when they just removed videos as soon one reported it to them. As said I am not "really" worried since we dont have Gestapo runing around here (yet). But who tells one that with the years and passing time not more and more control will be applied in the name of "fight against terrorism" or "nadequate content" cause exactly such kind of things have already happend in Germany. In France for example there have ben serious attempts by some lobbyists to get a law in the european parliament to punish those with the loos of internet for a certain time for the case they break copyright laws. And it seems they want to try it again with another law. I think the link was even floating for some time around somewhere here. Such kind of similar cases can be observed in several european nations like sveden and a few others as well.

    That one can get rather easily his hands on to say it that way questionable political websites is a fact which I dont dispute and cant say is a wonderfull thing, but it has its place, when it comes to informations. Today it are questionable sites maybe and at one point "political uncorrect" ones. Whos going to seperate it? Who will be in charge? Who will decide what is "valuable information" and what not and most important who will controll it? This are definetly questions one should ask when he is thinking about the future and internet.

    I see it that way, like the gouvernement would not allow punk bands and punk music anymore for example cause some of those bands (not all of course) propagate anarchistic views and agendas which go most of the time as well against the gouvernement directly. Does it mean I am a fan of this people or do I share their view? Hell no. But It would not try to force anything on them as long those people are not "fighting" against democracy and do hurt other people. To get in fights with someone and to just say your oppinion are as you sure know 2 different things. And I somewhat see it with the internet in the same way. People use it as a platform to share informations. What ever if this informations have a value or not is a different question. But it should be in the hands of the usual citizen to decide that. Not one single person or instituation.

    When certain things already start to happen in a such really liberal nation like Germany. What can one expect else? Certain things start already now to stink heavily, when you think about the issues with the GEZ which some in Germany call it ironicaly GEZtapo. They somewhat managed on a large scale to dismout democratic values. As well in the internet. You can not say your oppinion about them in the public cause you have to fear to meet a few hundret lawyer.
  6. Ashmo

    Ashmo Half-way Through My Half-life

    Jul 2, 2004
    Go and download Steal This Film pt. I and II right now.

    It's not censorship, it's money.

    The recording industry will be going down. And it's doing everything in its power to prevent that from happening.
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    again I dont want to start a discussion if it is right or not to break copyright laws.

    What I find questionable is how easy certain electronic informations can be "blocked" and made unavailable for the masses. And how fast and frivolously some jump up crying about copyrights and the need to defend them and quite easily do not hestitate to just outright ban everything that might be used by people to break those laws. I mean how comes that youtube now is suddenly responsible for every content when one has eventualy to subscribe a disclaimer when he opens some account on youtube that he will not upload copy protected content ?

    That certain things do not work well is something I admit when it comes to copyprotection. Laws are laws. But the thing is just that where a surgery with a scalpel is needed politicans and certain lobbyists tend to take a chainsaw and a lot of people just dont care cause it doesnt effect them (yet!). Cancer is out, patient is dead. Problem solved
  8. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    Nov 2, 2008
    GEMA is a big shitload, in good tradition with other german suckers like GEZ or ORF. But you shouldn't complain, YT is completely down for over nine days in China now (with the exception of a 11hour time window some days ago).

    I don't mind about the music videos, I don't use youtube for that and musicians at GEMA all (!) suck
  9. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    Internet is getting less and less freedom every year.

    For example, advertising are getting bigger and some of their windows you cannot close! You need to see the whole thing or ignore somehow.

    It's over people! The freedom is over man! We should now get our asses up from these chairs and fight for what the have taken from us!
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Thats exactly the kind of attitude I am speaknig about, sorry if it sounds offensive, really not meant that way, its not personaly meant against you. Its more meant in general speaking about the European and German citizens.

    But quite a lot of people feel indeed very fine with when some lobbyists come out behind their rocks with laws that have in their core for example to remove all of your bittorent clients on your PC, or other kind of PNP networks, give copyright companies a very high power over their costumers (Hello George Orwell? GEZ, GEMA and Double speak!?) and mention even the temporary removal of your internet. How comes people as mass are not bothered about it? Cause its "electronic"? If the Music Industry would run around suggesting to burn books from questionable writters, I bet a lot of people would hear their warning bell go crazy in their head. I know its somewhat exagerated to compare it with such a more or less symbolic situation. But its to make a point. People dont care cause it doesnt "affect" them.
  11. Radwaster

    Radwaster It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 1, 2009
    Public wrote:
    Use AdBlock Plus in Firefox = almost no ads, and any that slip through you can block manually. I'm sure there are other free blocking systems around as well.

    Crni Vuk wrote:
    Yeah just because it doesn't affect you now doesn't mean it won't affect you soon. Surveillance society plus government control of information is one road to a police state. Seems to be the trend these days - sold to us as part of the 'war on terror' of course. Fear has always been used as a tool to keep people quiet.
  12. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    Nov 2, 2008
    Don't worry I am not offended, I'm simply saying that it isn't so bad in germany and that I just counter whatever shit they try to pull. If they ban youtube I use youku, if they ban videogames I pirate them, as long as they are not so drastic like China (blocking tbp entirely) I don't mind and care. Why? Well, german public is just something..well..there are still people that vote FDP (dunno how to explain it better, if you know about german politics you should get it)
  13. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    But they are there, companies put them there no matter what you do. You won't cover the truth that way, and the truth is- Internet is becoming a place for companies and corporations to advertise themselves (which also means whoever has more money, ownes internet), when it should be for people to have a free speach, not for companies driven by money to do whatever they want.
  14. Radwaster

    Radwaster It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 1, 2009
    No disagreement with what you say there Public. But the more people block the ads the less effect those ads have.

    Here's the kind of shit we are facing from our ruling gangs:

    I'll bet it won't be long before the stored data does include the above.
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You ever had issues with the GEZ? Of course Germany is no dictatorship. But there are certain areas which are rather big and are not working how they should or should have any place in a democratic society! If you can read German I really would suggest to read about it on GEZ abschaffen! Nie wieder Rundfunkgebühren!. The tools of the constitutional legality which are meant to defend the citizen are shamelessly missused by certain big organisations like the GEZ to not only fight against people but silence any kind of critical voice (like the owner of the website) and bully costumers. When it starts that you as usual person have in TV or the internet to "worry" about the way you describe a situation without beeing offensive which is literaly forcing you to use words that are not existand (Double speak Geroge Orwell anyone ...) to describe some situation or have to use laws in relation with satire to protect your oppinion then I just have the feeling that something is definetly absolutely working completely wrong.

    Now what happens if at one point someone decides that such "websites" get baned in the future? A rather small issue for some maybe. But even small issues prove how much the the value of "democracy" and "freedom of spech" are worth to people. Things are not bad at the moment, which I somewhat can agree but the question is how bad do have things to become?
  16. Patton89

    Patton89 Vault Dweller

    Nov 21, 2008
    Sadly, capitalism and free market economy are the only systems that we have that work. They are not perfect by a long shot, but they necessity. Do you get your panties in a twist when you see a ad in a newspaper and television ? Ads are necessary for the sites to keep running. Dont start thinking that will make the corporations to have free hands to do whatever they want to do.
    They are BOUND by the law. They cannot break the laws freely or force people to buy their products and not critizise them. They cannot censorize the entire internet. Yet.As long as corporations are not working together, or no mega-corporation arises from the ashes of the depression, we are okay.

    Corporations dont have that power in real world. Yet.
    Also we still have the goverments that SHOULD push forward the peoples intrests and parlaments to make laws that do not contradict the principles of western culture, or harm the people.
    Now if corporations gain so much power,and goverments become so blinded by power, that it makes democracy impossible or hinders it severely, making people's will go unheard, we need to revolt and get rid of both the large corporations and the current goverments.

    I wouldnt choose anarchy as my first option, but if it is anarchy ala 1936 barcelona, then its definete yes. Actual working semi-anarchy would suit me. I prefer freedom over slavery, be it corporations or goverments alike.

    But as i said, it hasnt been a problem yet. Not here atleast.
  17. Iridium L

    Iridium L First time out of the vault

    Sep 14, 2007
    Can we please stop throwing around all those platitudes? Orwell, Gestapo, bookburnings, c'mon! This is not censorship but a simple matter of copyright, to which bookburnings and the situation in china, north-korea or (gasp!) Nazi-Germany aren't even remotely comparable. The songs are still freely obtainable through any means you choose, except youtube. The artists would just rather get paid for it, nothing more or less than a dumb marketing move if you ask me.

    In general I think it's impossible to censor the internet because there are just too many potential sources of information. With orchestrated effort from governments and ISPs the flow of information can be slowed down massively, but it never completely dries out. In democratic/free market societies this scenario is very unlikely because there are too many groups with conflicting interests i.e. they lack the hive mentality which enables governments/corporations to pull it off and sustain it. I like to believe that people here would protest if they were actually cut off from parts of the internet, but that might just be the romantic in me.

    About the GEZ and the tabloidesque site you linked to: It seems like a publicity ploy to sell some more books. I live in germany and happily pay for quality public access television because they are the only ones left with some jounalistic integrity. The information part (news, reportages, political talk) is usually good and balanced, the entertainment part has a broad diversity so that everybody may find something worth watching. There are no ads so they need to be financed through other means to keep up the quality and compete with the other stations. The private stations are flooded with crappy reality tv, ads and breaking news about Britney Spears or some other celebrity. If I have to choose between profit driven sensationalism or independent, extensive dullism I take the latter and so should you if you were concerned about censorship and manipulation.
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Can we then stop as well talking about "copy right laws" and protection when that was just a example. It is not about copy rights. It is about how easy certain platforms can be changed to not allow some area access to certain informations. It has nothing to do with copyrights. It could have been something else, completely political (which has been removed from you tube sometimes as well ...).
    If you are located in Germany then : Ammnesty Kampagne:Gegen die Zensur des Internet
    Amnesty International launches campaign against Internet censorship

    Of course it is NOT a dictatorship. But who says it can not become even in Germany or other parts of Europe and the US in 50 or 60 years so far that you wake up and realise youre living in a totalitarian society? It could be still a form of democracy. But with many restrictions and limits. Without democratic values. Not that Germany or most states are a true Democracy anyway, they are Republics. But still.

    Of course he wants to sell his books. Would you make a page about it and not mention them? That is how he earns money. But, if you have time you should follow a few of the links on the page not erleated to any of his books.

    Like the issues he still has with the GEZ around so called "Zwangsanmeldungeng". Go read it when you have time, its pretty amussing.
  19. Ratty Sr.

    Ratty Sr. Ratty, except old Moderator Orderite

    Apr 23, 2003
    I laugh at petty aggravations of westerners. Alas, in Croatia you can get arrested if you criticize the government on a public blog. As if that isn't enough, we've recently joined the exclusive club of countries where people get imprisoned for expressing anti-government sentiments on FaceBook. Current club membership: Egypt, Croatia.
  20. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    May 18, 2003
    Don't forget Iran.