Chernobyl 2nd explosion

[Polynoid]

three divers who've entered the pool voluntarily.

Alexei Ananenko, Valeri Bezpalov and Boris Baranov have prevented a further thermal explosion by opening the submerged valves, as the reports say.

Still, what a nasty way to go... They were buried in leaden coffins, as well...

 

[peadar87]

According to many sources there was 20000 metric tons of water pumped out of the basement under reactor core, instead of 3500 assumed by you. Seems that not only water from primar circuit was pooled here, but also water from external sources injected into damaged reactor:
http://chernobylgallery.com/chernobyl-disaster/timeline/

I've found the same amount of water in wikipedia, and some books from Russian authors too, after googling for names of three divers who've entered the pool voluntarily.

Okay, fair enough. But the full amount of water was never going to separate and recombine explosively anyway. Only a tiny fraction ever will, and once that explodes it will blow the rest of the (unseparated) water away from the Corium. It it likely there will be a series of steam explosions, each blowing a nasty cocktail of fission fragments and radioactive steam into the environment, but still not a multi-kiloton or megaton explosion.

Still though, horrible way to go, acute radiation poisoning. I'm not normally squeamish, but the pictures of what radiation can do to a person bring me close to throwing up even remembering them.

 

[AskWazzup]

I still don't understand how so many people in Pripyat had no comprehension of radiation poisoning, considering they lived near an atomic plant. There were a bunch of spectators watching the fire from bridges, lakes etc. Most of them died. And ironically the man who was the most responsible for the explosion lived while recieving 390 rem, and had recieved another huge dose in the past when he messed up a submarine project. He still lived 10 years after that, the guy was durable like a cockroach.

 

[Polynoid]

@AskWazzup:
If it were a chemical plant and something would smell funny, people would get cautious. You don't feel radiation poisoning - as long as nothing happens to you, this can't harm you, right?
I guess radiation dangers were considered as "mostly harmless".

 

[AskWazzup]

@AskWazzup:
If it were a chemical plant and something would smell funny, people would get cautious. You don't feel radiation poisoning - as long as nothing happens to you, this can't harm you, right?
I guess radiation dangers were considered as "mostly harmless".

If a chemical plant was burning i would get the fuck away from it as soon as i can regardless of the smell. The workers at the plant had families in Pripyat, so surely at least a good portion of people should have known that radiation causes damage to the human tissue, or else how would the workers operate the power plant without understand the effects of radiation.

 

[Polynoid]

@AskWazzup:
As far i can remember, people in former Soviet union didn't like to talk about the intrications of their jobs, especially if one was at a strategically important site. If the workers knew about side effects, they wouldn't tell it to their families, because they didn't want their relatives to worry. Hiroshima was a well-discussed topic in soviet schools, btw, however, only few would compare the effects of a atom bomb to a "peaceful soviet atom". Every engineer could tell you a nuclear explosion wasn't possible in a reactor, but would disregard the superaccident - he would say "don't caw it upon us and knock on wood."
Living in fear near such a plant would be probably very difficult. The misinformation has backlashed on the people horribly.

 

[peadar87]

I still don't understand how so many people in Pripyat had no comprehension of radiation poisoning, considering they lived near an atomic plant. There were a bunch of spectators watching the fire from bridges, lakes etc. Most of them died.

Do you have a source for that? It seems pretty unlikely. No bystanders are on the list of deaths on wikipedia.

And ironically the man who was the most responsible for the explosion lived while recieving 390 rem, and had recieved another huge dose in the past when he messed up a submarine project. He still lived 10 years after that, the guy was durable like a cockroach.

That's a big dose!

 

[AskWazzup]

Do you have a source for that? It seems pretty unlikely. No bystanders are on the list of deaths on wikipedia.

It was mentioned in all the documentaries i have seen on this accident (not a super reliable source, but it's something). The bridge in particular, mentioned in them, had wind coming directly from the powerplant that night, so all the people standing there recieved lethal doses of radiation.

It seems that there were many undocumented deaths associated with the accident.

 

[peadar87]

It was mentioned in all the documentaries i have seen on this accident (not a super reliable source, but it's something). The bridge in particular, mentioned in them, had wind coming directly from the powerplant that night, so all the people standing there recieved lethal doses of radiation.

It seems that there were many undocumented deaths associated with the accident.

Hmm... It still doesn't seem too likely to me. The fire would have carried fission products upwards in its plume, so there would have been some amount of "shine" from that if the plume was passing directly over the region. Shine from the reactor itself at that distance (almost 2000m) would have been pretty negligible. Measured dose rates outside the reactor compound were around 0.1-0.3 Sv/hour. Definitely not good for you (there's a clear statistical link between developing cancer and any dose of radiation above 0.1 Sv, about 5% increased risk for every Sv you take in), but also most likely not lethal.

I can buy that there were deaths that were covered up by the Soviet Union, but I doubt they were undocumented. So much stuff about Kyshtym, Tomsk-7 and the various submarine reactor accidents has been released since then, as well as all the information about liquidators who died and health conditions suffered by Pripyat evacuees, I don't think any actual deaths would have slipped under the radar.

 

[AskWazzup]

Hmm... It still doesn't seem too likely to me. The fire would have carried fission products upwards in its plume, so there would have been some amount of "shine" from that if the plume was passing directly over the region. Shine from the reactor itself at that distance (almost 2000m) would have been pretty negligible. Measured dose rates outside the reactor compound were around 0.1-0.3 Sv/hour. Definitely not good for you (there's a clear statistical link between developing cancer and any dose of radiation above 0.1 Sv, about 5% increased risk for every Sv you take in), but also most likely not lethal.

I can buy that there were deaths that were covered up by the Soviet Union, but I doubt they were undocumented. So much stuff about Kyshtym, Tomsk-7 and the various submarine reactor accidents has been released since then, as well as all the information about liquidators who died and health conditions suffered by Pripyat evacuees, I don't think any actual deaths would have slipped under the radar.

Hm... Well, then it's another bullshit myth spread by these documentaries?

Anyway, found this about it:

http://wikimapia.org/3650695/The-so-called-Bridge-of-Death

 

[vdweller84]

Well tbh the guys don't say anything about a "nuclear" explosion, only o normal one, ya know, much like the island of Jule Verne's L'isle Mysterieuse went off in the end.

At some point one has to realize that documentaries are the best way to perform awesome mass propaganda. No exceptions. It's just up to you to decide which side you're on, and thus which kind of propaganda you like to listen to and spread around. Sounds bad, eh? Well, propaganda is like nuclear energy, ironically. It's what use you make of it. Even saying that this post is shit would be propaganda from your part! You can't touch me! I'm immune!!1111ONEONE

 

[AskWazzup]

Well tbh the guys don't say anything about a "nuclear" explosion, only o normal one, ya know, much like the island of Jule Verne's L'isle Mysterieuse went off in the end.

At some point one has to realize that documentaries are the best way to perform awesome mass propaganda. No exceptions. It's just up to you to decide which side you're on, and thus which kind of propaganda you like to listen to and spread around. Sounds bad, eh? Well, propaganda is like nuclear energy, ironically. It's what use you make of it. Even saying that this post is shit would be propaganda from your part! You can't touch me! I'm immune!!1111ONEONE

5 megaton is not exactly a normal explosion. It may be that they also translated it badly, because i think i heard him say that Minsk would not be livable after the accident (although even that seems like bullshit), instead of being "raised". And he did say something about critical mass , but i couldn't make out the rest over the translation.

As for the propaganda part, well if you are talking about things that cannot be determined and proved beyond (almost beyond) any doubt, then yes, but physics and mathematics are fields based on pure black and white facts. So if someone claims something and the mathematical equations show you something different, you can prove that that person is a bullshiter.

 

[vdweller84]

5 megaton is not exactly a normal explosion. It may be that they also translated it badly, because i think i heard him say that Minsk would not be livable after the accident (although even that seems like bullshit), instead of being "raised". And he did say something about critical mass , but i couldn't make out the rest over the translation.

As for the propaganda part, well if you are talking about things that cannot be determined and proved beyond (almost beyond) any doubt, then yes, but physics and mathematics are fields based on pure black and white facts. So if someone claims something and the mathematical equations show you something different, you can prove that that person is a bullshiter.

Exactly, but well, your average documentary viewer isn't exactly a nuclear physicist...the majority will absorb it as it is.

 

[SuAside]

I still don't understand how so many people in Pripyat had no comprehension of radiation poisoning, considering they lived near an atomic plant. There were a bunch of spectators watching the fire from bridges, lakes etc. Most of them died. And ironically the man who was the most responsible for the explosion lived while recieving 390 rem, and had recieved another huge dose in the past when he messed up a submarine project. He still lived 10 years after that, the guy was durable like a cockroach.

There is evidence that people continuously exposed build up some kind of resistance to it. That's why people living in hotspots (and even bathing in nuclear hotsprings) don't really have a higher rate of cancer than any blind test group.
Local folklore even labels said hotsprings as healthy.
People exposed suddenly are much more succeptible.

That said, that's for places with say 10x the allowed yearly exposure of people working at nuclear powerplants. That doesn't compare to actual exposure from an accident or explosion.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I am not sure ... if that's really a scientific statement. *Summons @Hassknecht
See, Radiation isn't exactly like poison. It's usually made of high energy particles. You can shield your body from it, and water by the way is doing a pretty decent job here see nuclear reactors, but you can't really toughen your self up from exposed radiation. As far as I know. But I am hardly a nuclear physicist. But, I doubt you can get used to radiation, not in the same sense like with certain chemicals or venoms, let us say snake bites. The issue with radiation and the damage it can cause to tissues, particulary in relation with cancer cells, is that you can't predict it with absolute certainity. You can only go with statistics. And we all know, don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself and so on ...

If a chemical plant was burning i would get the fuck away from it as soon as i can regardless of the smell. The workers at the plant had families in Pripyat, so surely at least a good portion of people should have known that radiation causes damage to the human tissue, or else how would the workers operate the power plant without understand the effects of radiation.

Something I thought about as well. Have the people been that naive? Was there a lack of knowledge? I am sure we, are better now, since we all know a lot more today! But then ... someone asked random people in California to sign a petition, if the US should lunch a preemptive nuclear strike against Russia. I think, people simply ... are like that :/. Even supposedly intelligent people.

"At the end of the war if there are two Americans and one Russian left alive, we win!"
Thomas S. Power

 

[AskWazzup]

I
Something I thought about as well. Have the people been that naive? Was there a lack of knowledge? I am sure we, are better now, since we all know a lot more today! But then ... someone asked random people in California to sign a petition, if the US should lunch a preemptive nuclear strike against Russia. I think, people simply ... are like that :/. Even supposedly intelligent people.

Yeah, free information (as in free internet these days) and not hiding shit from your people is probably the best way to go. I think there was a similar situation in USA in the 50', where the goverment would not tell the people of some town (can't remember which) that there was a radiation cloud coming their way from a nuclear test gone bad. Although in this situation it seems that the soviet governing bodies were so inept at their job that they didn't figure out that this was a real bad situation in the first few days themself.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Like they gave a shit anyway. Look up the areas where the Soviets did their nuclear tests.

 

[SuAside]

I am not sure ... if that's really a scientific statement. *Summons @Hassknecht
See, Radiation isn't exactly like poison. It's usually made of high energy particles. You can shield your body from it, and water by the way is doing a pretty decent job here see nuclear reactors, but you can't really toughen your self up from exposed radiation. As far as I know. But I am hardly a nuclear physicist. But, I doubt you can get used to radiation, not in the same sense like with certain chemicals or venoms, let us say snake bites. The issue with radiation and the damage it can cause to tissues, particulary in relation with cancer cells, is that you can't predict it with absolute certainity. You can only go with statistics. And we all know, don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself and so on ...

Oh, it pays to be skeptical about that kind of thing. But this info comes from a few completely different sources across the entire world. They're struggling to explain it.

It's interesting to look into though. Why would this kind of elevated background radiation trigger less medical problems than waste from a nuclear disaster? The old USSR has several lakes & rivers with elevated background radiation similar to those at the natural sites mentioned above. Those did elevate the number of radiation related illnesses. So maybe there's different factors at play here. I'd suspect that the type of material which gives off the radiation plays a large part in it.

Interesting to look into at least.

(as for your comment about water, the water itself at the hot springs contains radioactive particles, so they're not so much shielding as they are transporting it to the surface. people go into the water. water only shields radiation if there's enough of it between you and the source of radition. )

 

[Crni Vuk]

It's interesting to look into though. Why would this kind of elevated background radiation trigger less medical problems than waste from a nuclear disaster?

Well ... it is just what I assume, but I think the most likely answer is, because no one really cared to ever make accurate surveys or to release accurate informations and data.
Just take the really sad fate of the Chernobyl liquidators as example. I always wondered why Ukraine and before them, the Soviet Union actually reported so few casualites and issues. Turns out, in hindsight to the disaster and the clearing work, they had so many people with radiation contamination seeking help in hospitals due to health problems, that someone simply decided to raise the limit for the dose of radiation which leads to health issues. Just like that. And suddenly from 100 000 of people with issues they had only a handfull.

So maybe there's different factors at play here. I'd suspect that the type of material which gives off the radiation plays a large part in it.

Could be, like I said, it is as far as I can tell, a very complex field. It does depend a lot about what type of radiation and particle we are talking about, if the radiation was released in to a river, or trough the air, maybe with a fire even. Like in Chernobyl, which is what made it so devastating in the first place as the radioctive particles mixed together with the soot from the burning reactor. Radiation in the ground or inside of animals is much less of a problem, compared to that, unless you eat it of course. And you can protect your self relatively easily from alpha and beta radiation, gamma radiation as electromagnetic wave with a very high frequncy is made of photons with high energy however, which makes it more difficult to shield your self from. Alpha particles can be already stoped by a sheet of paper or your skin even, where as beta particles and gamma rays require materials with higher density. Beta particles are made of β− electrons or β+ positrons, and can be stoped by aluminium plates. Gamma rays described by wave mechanics, require more density to be stoped reliably, like lead. And it has the effect that it is a form of Ionizing radiation, (...) that carries enough energy to free electrons from atoms or molecules, thereby ionizing them.