Combat and Weaponry (was:Unarmed in F3)

As Rosh says Pugilism fits the setting and martial arts doesn't, wrestling would though, not judo not the flash WWE style but simple wrestling as at the olympics,

When the modern Olympic Games resumed in Athens in 1896, organisers considered wrestling so historically significant that it became a focus of the Games. They remembered tales of wrestling competition in 708 BC, of oiled bodies fighting on sand in the ancient Games. Greco-Roman wrestling was deemed a pure reincarnation of ancient Greek and Roman wrestling.

Eight years later, Olympic officials added a second category with far less history and far less grandeur, but great popularity. Commonly known as "catch as catch can", freestyle wrestling had become the staple of 19th-century fairs and festivals in Great Britain and the United States, a form of professional entertainment. Like Greco-Roman wrestling, it became a staple of the Games themselves.

or as taught in high schools and colleges. Many of the fights in the old saturday morning matinees involved as much wrestling as fisticuffs. There's one problem though, how could you really implement it in turnbased combat?
 
REMOVED heated statements. Sorry.

wrestling would though, not judo

:) Judo and jujutsu are really just wrestling with foreign terminology, which wouldn't make any sense in Fallout obviously. They still share a lot of things with western wrestling though, which is why I doubt most people could really distinguish them in a real fight.

Check these out
http://www.defendo.com/biddle_bayonet.html
http://www.defendo.com/home_gaurd_web.html
http://www.defendo.com/camp_b_web.html
http://www.defendo.com/history.htm

I suppose very simple solution to attempting any kind of standing-grappling techniques would be an opposed skill check referencing St, Ag, and the unarmed skill. The defender succeeding by a large enough margin could become a reversal. To keep things very simple, there might only be a couple simple maneuvers such as a hold/clinch that prevents the opponent from using weapons/immobilizes him/inflicts some large penalty (any or all of the above), a leg sweep or shoulder toss that will knock the opponent down, and perhaps a choke. Anything like a choke or hold could be maintained by a round to round opposed check. Starting to sound too much like D&D though :)
 
Way to much like D&D....
Wrestling ? Oposed checks, throws, etc... sounds a bit to fancy for my taste... I prefer giving'em a punch in the nose.....
 
I agree with Nocturne. And I'd rather have more focus on traditional boxing and bar brawls...in a world with super mutants and very large guns you won't need HTH combat that often...
 
And again, for jlamb's benefit, I have to point out the fiction style uses pugilism as a base. Unless it was the heroic struggle between two people over an item, they would just use fists and maybe a foot. To make it simple for the children since they would undoubtedly know of this reference, watch Star Trek sometime.

That was an aspect that did carry over a bit into the 60's, and hence Bruce Lee and others gained media notice because they were doing something other than knuckle each other around. To spell it out simply, only those who are foreign or otherwise different would use something not typical of the popular style then.

In most cases, grappling an enemy would be useless to even have in the game given the rare chance that someone would use it. Wrestling is for one-on-one in controlled environments. Anyone familiar with HtH combat can tell you that if you think you should be putting wrestling moves on someone in combat, you shouldn't even think of real fighting. It is fine to practice one-on-one, but just maybe the super-mutant will toe out a line separate from the others, and stand with his back to a stepladder so you can put a headlock onto him.
 
Yeah, kung fu doesn't fit in the FO world, and certainly not as a fighting style the character would use.

As for swords . . . the whole craze for katanas is a relatively recent one, and a 50 style world would fnd them out of place. At most, they could have one katana hidden somewhere in the game, just as a novelty. Any more would be too much. Ditto for rapiers, claymores, sabres, etc.

Chainsaws would be cool, even though the ripper is basically a knife-size one. Still I think they should be fairly rare, and have a high AP usage due to unweildiness.

One thing I think we should see a lot of are machetes, hatchets, cleavers, and axes. Hell, I have all of those in my garage. After a nuclear war, there would be tons of these, probably as many as there are crowbars and sledge-hammers. In fact, I'm sure the only reason we didn't see these was due to the excess frames required.

Still, machetes and axes would be cool, and would fit right into the setting.
 
Fireblade said:
Well I didnt suggest schmatics and such. However it seems rather stupid that you cant improvise some tools and weapons from the landscape around you.
What would you suggest? A simple 1+1=2 scheme? A player finds an axe head, he has a few items he might want to try to make it with, an axe haft, a chain, a signpost. He has a decent repair skill, so he can slap the stuff together. He could use any, but the chain and signpost would be powerful but cost alot of AP to use, but the axe haft would be faster (due to the good balance), have a lower crit failure rate and a higher crit success rate. All sorts of combinations would be possible and some would work better than others. Weapons could be cobbled together, to a degree. Naturally, a silencer or an extended magazine would only work for the gun it's designed for. Things like small flashlights, scopes, and bayonets would be easy to add to weapons designed with the right rail system or attachment points, but could be (with some work) placed on a gun it wasn't originally intended for.

Seeing everyone carrying the same stock item in a world that has lost nearly all production capabilities annoys me.
 
I'm not sure if someone has posted this idea before, but one melee weapon I think should've been incorporated in the whole Fallout universe was fence T-posts ( they're the green or red, posts with white tips used to make barbed wire fences). They are abundant in the USA nowadays. Post-apocalyptic peoples would defenently pull some out of the ground and use'em to stab a rival.
 
Anyone familiar with HtH combat can tell you that if you think you should be putting wrestling moves on someone in combat, you shouldn't even think of real fighting. It is fine to practice one-on-one, but just maybe the super-mutant will toe out a line separate from the others, and stand with his back to a stepladder so you can put a headlock onto him.

Actually, the reality of battlefield hand-to-hand combat is: being thrown to the ground in the middle of a multiple-on-multiple melee is about the worst thing that can happen to you (especially if you are wearing 60lbs of equipment at the time). In any fighting system used on battlefields, empty hand striking that DOES occur consists of "surgical" attacks intended to facilitate this, because dispatching someone with your bear hands is ridiculously difficult. It is being tied up with someone for any extended period of time that is generally a bad idea, UNLESS you outnumber your opponent and are restraining him to help your allies attack (which is the only reason I'd even consider a standing hold).

Any elbow-and-collar based wrestling is derived from fighting in armor where you and the opponent are in stalemate, trying to control each other's balance by grabbing at the chestplate shoulder strap (or in more modern times the shirt collar or neck) and elbow joint. The primary goal of any technique from this clinch is to break the deadlock in a way that gives you time to get a weapon out first. The most effective way to do so is to throw your opponent to the ground in a way that ideally also seperates joints and/or knocks the wind out of them. This gives you time to attack his vitals while vulnerable (this is actually partially reflected in Fallout already, since you get a huge bonus to hit a grounded opponent).

This is a VERY basic description of battlefield HtH, derived mostly from my knowlege as nidan in a system of Japanese martial arts dating to their "Warring States" period. It is however a basically universal concept anywhere that armoured HtH fighting took place. www.aemma.org has a library of european "fight books" which detail many principles very similar to the Japanese arts. This is probably because, through a process of trial and error, fighters found out that some things were just good ideas.

Obviously it is ideal to attack the enemy from farther away, which is why ranged weapons have always been the cause of the vast majority of battlefield casulties regardless of era. But if you DO end up in HtH range, throwing the other guy to the ground is better than any kick. I never understood why FO1 even had that silly head-level round kick.

And just for some amusement, Flash Gordon doing what's known in the art I practice as "onikudaki" :)
Flash_Gordon_2.jpg
 
jlamb said:

Funny you should mention that, as I already pointed out the time in which people turned towards any kind of wrestling in that time period of fiction.

Considering that you're just filling this topic up with more irrelevant garbage, you can now wear the helmet with pride.
 
hmm , Scimitars :P that could be cool to see , maybe it would fit , not alot but a few :P , or Axes? normal ones , hand axe or something nothing superduper D&D Style.
 
Crosis, this is quite more ridiculous than any katana ideas hitherto. Please don't post that kind of bollocks.
 
Crosis said:
hmm , Scimitars :P that could be cool to see , maybe it would fit , not alot but a few :P , or Axes? normal ones , hand axe or something nothing superduper D&D Style.

Shut it! Your shaming our country with this nonsense..... :evil:
 
Crosis said:
hmm , Scimitars :P that could be cool to see , maybe it would fit , not alot but a few :P , or Axes? normal ones , hand axe or something nothing superduper D&D Style.

Why Scimitars? I'm not sure when it was popular to decorate houses with items from various countries, but I doubt decorative scimitars would be good as weapons. Since fake swords are always popular, though, I'd throw a few in a "filler" weapons to supplant pipes and shit, but ornamental swords are terrible weapons and this should be reflected. (i.e. make all the ornamental swords the same, just with some different graphics) The Sword thing has been had out to death a million times and the result is typically that there should be a very rare WWII Japanese Katana that was taken as a trophy, but otherwise swords don't fit the setting too well.

By axes,
normal ones , hand axe or something nothing superduper D&D Style
I think you mean like survival hatchets, woodsman's axes, not battle axes and that sort of crap. These items are terrific survival tools and terrifying weapons, I can't fathom why they were left out of the original Fallouts. I once read that if you're stranded in the wilderness, the one item you really, really want is a good full-size axe. Clearly this item transcends the simple bounds of "weapon" in terms of survival and belongs in the Fallout world.
 
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