Comics and graphic novels

[Patton89]

pretty dumb post, dude.

Jim Woodring, Chris Ware, Charles Burns, Art Spiegelman, Robert Crumb, Chester Brown, Brian K. Vaughn, Daniel Clowes, Peter Bagge, Mike Mignola, Jhonen Vasquez, Gilbert and Jaime Hernandez, Adrian Tomine, Tony Millionaire, Joe Sacco, Lynda Barry, Brian Azzarello...i mean...what the fuck? i could go on all day.

So ? How does this dispute the fact that big american comic companies make the same generic superhero comics again and again and again.
I DIDNT SAY EVERY american comic is centered around superheroes DID I ? But i would say at least a large part is.
It is simply one of the things that has made me dislike mainstream american comics, the ones that mostly show up here.
Those guys have done pretty damn great stuff, im not claiming otherwise.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Also, how the hell am i supposed to keep up with so many insane spin-offs and mini-series ? Its just insane.

I haven't read Marvel comics in probably 15 years because of that. I read the X-men and that was cool, they came out with New Mutants and that was cool. Then they also did Classic Men, X-Factor, X-force, Excalibur, Wolverine on and on.., and the crossovers. I'm sure it's as bad now. Pretty transparent attempts to cash in and milk an idea to death.

I am currently reading the lone wolf and cub, rather enjoyable thing.

One of my favorites. Good stuff that.

Haven't read any comics in a long time.
Have to get around to finishing Cerebus eventually...

 

[welsh]

I am still not buying the difference.

When I was young we read Classic Comics- Moby Dick, Three Muskateers, Swiss Family Robinson, etc. This is when Classic Comics were really pretty good.

Comic books or graphic novels?
Where they were the graphic representation of the novel, but they lacked a lot of the narrative and dialogue, replaced them with pictures- a fair substitute?

I am not sure.
To me, classic comics were an introduction to better literature, that's it.

But I read Walking Dead, which looks like a graphic novel and comes out in book form, and I see comic book.

I accept that not all comic books are centered on super heroes or are comedies, but I am not convinced that graphic novels are more than comic books.

I notice that the prices are different- is this commericalism- or just repackaging.

Why is 300 or Sin City not a comic book?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

So ? How does this dispute the fact that big american comic companies make the same generic superhero comics again and again and again.

walk into any comic shop here and tell me how big the section you're describing is in comparison to the rest of the shop (at least in cultured cities).

I DIDNT SAY EVERY american comic is centered around superheroes DID I ?

NO what you SAID WAS THIS:

I might be exaggerating a bit, but it does seem most american comics are centered around superheroes.

and yeah, you're exaggerating. by a fucking country mile.

 

[Wooz]

When I was young

~1200

B.C.

Where they were the graphic representation of the novel, but they lacked a lot of the narrative and dialogue, replaced them with pictures- a fair substitute?

How about "book spinoffs"?

A graphic novel can't be, uh "told" without its graphic representation. Doing so would be like having a play about a video game.

Why is 300 or Sin City not a comic book?

Because

 

[Flop]

I accept that not all comic books are centered on super heroes or are comedies, but I am not convinced that graphic novels are more than comic books.

That's how I feel. The difference seems somewhat arbitrary. What about Asterix, Tintin, Lucky Luke, Spirou and so on? What about The Phantom, which is a superhero comic, but each issue usually has a self-contained story line. Hell, I even own a few Beetle Bailey "graphic novels" (in the sense that each one is 40+ pages long and has a self-contained story).

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

"Graphic Novel" is just a euphemism used by those who are embarassed that they still read comics. It is arbitrary, as far as I can tell comics are for pre-pubescents, graphic novels are geared towards an older audience.

 

[Patton89]

and yeah, you're exaggerating. by a fucking country mile.

Well, im looking at sales figures and you know what ? i am NOT exaggerating , atleast "by a fucking country mile" whatever that means. Dollar % wise Marvel and DC are pretty much dominating american comic sales, i am talking about 60-65 %. And majority of their comics are about, you guessed it , superheroes.
The sections comic book stores put to other comics doesnt really matter, as most sales come from superhero trash.
Yes, there are comics outside superhero comics, but their sales dont seem that large. It seems that most american comics, that sell a lot, are about superheroes.

 

[Sander]

and yeah, you're exaggerating. by a fucking country mile.

Well, im looking at sales figures and you know what ? i am NOT exaggerating , atleast "by a fucking country mile" whatever that means. Dollar % wise Marvel and DC are pretty much dominating american comic sales, i am talking about 60-65 %. And majority of their comics are about, you guessed it , superheroes.
The sections comic book stores put to other comics doesnt really matter, as most sales come from superhero trash.
Yes, there are comics outside superhero comics, but their sales dont seem that large. It seems that most american comics, that sell a lot, are about superheroes.

Which is not what you said. You said, and I quote, "I might be exaggerating a bit, but it does seem most american comics are centered around superheroes. "
Most is by amount of different comics, not by sales volume.

 

[Patton89]

Most of them probably are superhero comics, at least if you consider the sheer volume of different iterations they make.
Also, what comics are we counting ? Ones that are published by companies or even independent ones ?
It doesnt almost matter if there are by NUMBER more comics about different things than superheroes, when those comics dont sell nothing compared to superhero comics.

My first post could have been more thought trough, but that still doesnt change the fact that most american comics most people are exposed are simply ones about superheroes, resulting in a situation where it DOES SEEM like most of american comics are about superheroes, regardless of if there really are more comics about different things than superheroes.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

dude. just admit you made an ignorant statement fueled by your own lack of knowing what you're talking about. it's your fault and your fault alone for not recognizing that many of the greatest comic artists currently producing popular work are American comic artists. but good on you for hopping on the "omfg America is teh suxxors lol!" bandwagon.


(edited out the tO in the post for NMA's sake.)

 

[Sander]

Most of them probably are superhero comics, at least if you consider the sheer volume of different iterations they make.
Also, what comics are we counting ? Ones that are published by companies or even independent ones ?
It doesnt almost matter if there are by NUMBER more comics about different things than superheroes, when those comics dont sell nothing compared to superhero comics.

Yes it does. Those comics are out there and available for you to buy. It would directly contradict your statements, and sales volume only says something about popularity not about production. BUt it does stand to reason that when something sells, people make more of it. This is simple supply and demand, nothing to go railing against the comic producers for as they're just giving their customers what they want.

My first post could have been more thought trough, but that still doesnt change the fact that most american comics most people are exposed are simply ones about superheroes, resulting in a situation where it DOES SEEM like most of american comics are about superheroes, regardless of if there really are more comics about different things than superheroes.

So we've gone from 'most American comic books' to 'most American comic books that people are exposed to, at least that's how it looks from the outside'.
Stop twisting around, dude, you were wrong.

Lastly, on the distinction between a graphic novel and a comic book: the line is fuzzy and unclear. In general, though, things like Asterix, Tintin, Lucky Luke and most similar European comics (mostly Belgian and French) are not really graphic novels, as they are pretty short and generally lack the length of a graphic novel.

It is mostly a distinction made through convention.

 

[TyloniusFunk]

dude. just admit you made an ignorant statement fueled by your own lack of knowing what you're talking about. it's your fault and your fault alone for not recognizing that many of the greatest comic artists currently producing popular work are American comic artists. but good on you for hopping on the "omfg America is teh suxxors lol!" bandwagon.


(edited out the tO in the post for NMA's sake.)

You just wasted an entire page of forum posts, not to mention the time of multiple members reading this inane argument because you felt like being intolerant. Good for you, orderite.

Also, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "cultured cities" but the store I frequented in Madison, Wisconsin dedicated about 10% of it's space to indie comics, the rest was superheroes.

 

[Violator]

Well here are some of the favorites:

I have an instant addiction for whatever comes out of the mind of Alejandro Jodorowsky - Inkal, Metabarons, Technopopes, I love them all. Herman is also great (Jeremiah) and adventures of Adler too (from Sterne). For some time I read "XII" and it wasn't all that bad. Superhero comics be it DC or Marvel are something that I'm not very fond off...except for Flash Gordon, he was just pure, concentrated awesomeness Calvin&Hobbes are neat too.

When I was younger I thought that nothing could beat Foster and Prince Valiant but I'm now past the middle-age/fantasy phase. I also liked "Gaston" at that time...I've read also a lot of "local" comics that would make little to no sense to you so I won't mention them.

Recently I started reading "Dampyr" and "Torgal" and must say that I find them quite lovable.

Has anyone read "Y-man"? I can't get my hands on it, but I'm quite intrigued with the premise and would like to know more...

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

You just wasted an entire page of forum posts, not to mention the time of multiple members reading this inane argument because you felt like being intolerant. Good for you, orderite.

i'm sorry, what? do you actually have something to say or a point to make? what exactly was i being "intolerant" of? ignorance? yeah, you're right. i sure am. now go cry in a corner somewhere. better yet, why don't you follow me around crying and waste some more time?

Also, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "cultured cities" but the store I frequented in Madison, Wisconsin dedicated about 10% of it's space to indie comics, the rest was superheroes.

hmmm. what exactly did i mean? hmmmm, wellllllll....i guess i mean cities who cater to people who don't drool as they walk down the street. the stores in boston, nyc and chapel hill i've been to have equal parts "mainstream" and "indie" (sometimes even the manga section out-does the "mainstream"). more often than not the "indie" is larger because of the vastness of it's authors. you've got the darkhorse stuff all the way through to the drawn and quarterly stuff. sorry you got the short straw in hippiecollegetown. also, this has fuck-all to do with the post that i responded to, which argued that "most american comics are about superheroes".

 

[Wooz]

Thorgal

Polish draughtsmen FTW.

Anyone familiar with Bill Sienkiewicz's artwork?

*reccomends furiously*

 

[Sander]

There were three comic books I often read as a kid, all of them European and mostly very different from the American superhero comics. In fact, I think that for most kids here the exposure to superheroes throughout the '80s and '90s, at least, was almost always the animated shows on TV (which had some great quality, Batman and X-Men especially).

The European comics tend to be different in that they're more grounded in history and 'the real world' as a setting, and they had a much lighter tone (while still handling some serious messages).

Specifically the three comic series I read would be Suske en Wiske (known as Spike and Suze, Willy and Wanda or Bob et Bobette abroad, according to Wikipedia), Asterix & Obelix and Lucky Luke.

I read Suske en Wiske most of all. Interestingly, it was light-hearted, but still tried to fit in important morals and stories based on real conflicts, alternating with completely fantastical stories set in other times - enabled by the presence of a time machine in the comics.

 

[Herr Mike]

Technically speaking, a graphic novel is used to describe an original work that was never released in a serial format.

Tintin, Asterix et al I believe were all released as strips and then collected, similar to Calvin and Hobbes.

Given that the serial market is still fairly profitable, you don't see a relatively large amount of graphic novels released in the US. I wouldn't mind seeing that change. Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen stuff is now released like that.

Even the much scoffed at superheroes can be the focus point of very good stories, when the creators don't have to worry about continuity, relentless deadlines, and various constraints associated with the silly monthly release formula.

 

[Sander]

Technically speaking, a graphic novel is used to describe an original work that was never released in a serial format.

Technically speaking, no it isn't. I can't actually find that definition anywhere, and most sources only mention that definition as a fringe meaning.

Also, serialization can be done very well. Hellboy (and spin-off BPRD, which are more or less treated as one big series) would be an example of that, which has been pretty consistently great.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

wouldn't the definition just be the finite collection of a serial which has a definite beginning and end?

Black Hole by Charles Burns is a graphic novel. it has a definite beginning, middle and end and was obviously written this way though it was released very slowly, about one issue a year for 10 (11?) years.