Concerns from game development of TB and RT...

[Briosafreak]

But you dont realize that TB is NOT REALISTIC

Hello? We`re talking about games here, fun or challenging are the keywords, if you want realism try real life.

And what realism is there in suspending the world by pausing like in RT with pause? And you do know the six seconds rule in the IE engine from games like Baldurs Gate, that means your character isn`t responding immediatly to your command right?

Better yet, why isn`t it important to have a realistic setting, like in fantasy or post apoc games, but then the combat has to be realistic?

And what game has realistic combat really, it`s always simulated conditions, with tweaks on the physics and the reactions of the weapons.

So please stop talking about realism, and tone down your flames.

 

[RFlags]

In all cases the ones whom don't like Turn Based system can play Baldurs Gate series, Diablo series Neverwinter nights and all the other games out there... Leave Fallout alone, with the TB system, since it is the last survivor (I think... ) of his kind... Why change what is excelent?? To make it worse??

Still waiting for the answer!!

 

[Kain]

We've been over this billions of times. The reason why they want to put RT is so that the "CLICKKY BLOW UP" action genere will be interested in a deep TB game. Since they are too impatient to finish a round, they just want to click and make stuff blow up! But that dosn't appeal to the guys that want to play D&D p&p with 16 sided dice and like to plan out what they'll do this round.

 

[Human Shield]

Or add bigger explosions and violent animations in TB (Fallout enjoyed action fan attention) and compress enemy turns (like ToEE and X-Com).

 

[RFlags]

What's the name of the game ToEE... I think it must be good, because you all talk well of it. And X-Com wich of the series?
Thanks and sorry for the off-topic reply...

 

[Briosafreak]

What's the name of the game ToEE... I think it must be good, because you all talk well of it. And X-Com wich of the series?
Thanks and sorry for the off-topic reply...

Actually it`s very so-so, and it needs a patch, it has some annoyances. The combat is sweet though. There`s a forum here on NMA where people can help you out with it , the Troika forum.

 

[NgInE]

i don't really care if they'd add a RT function to the game, as long as the rest of the game doesn't suffer from it. as for MP...i don't know if it's such a good idea to add that to Fallout 3. i mean; would it really be as cool as the SP game? i think it could, if there would be at least some form of story devolpment. hack'n slash is no option here in my opinion.

 

[Gus]

i don't really care if they'd add a RT function to the game, as long as the rest of the game doesn't suffer from it

The game does suffer from it. All the time spent on RT, should be used to improve the rest of the game.

 

[Brother None]

The game does suffer from it. All the time spent on RT, should be used to improve the rest of the game.

Or alternatively, if there was no RT, upper level management would cut the time alloted to VB by a month or two.

I mean, ouch. Don't be so linear in your reasonings.

 

[Gus]

if there was no RT, upper level management would cut the time alloted to VB by a month or two.

And the game would be available a month sooner.

 

[M-real]

To Briosafreak:

And what realism is there in suspending the world by pausing like in RT with pause

Yes you pause and stop the time, but the enimies stiil play at the same time with you!Not one after anther. Got it?

And you do know the six seconds rule in the IE engine from games like Baldurs Gate, that means your character isn`t responding immediatly to your command right?

Thats because of Stupid AD&D rules.I didnt mean D&D Real time battles.I ment S.P.E.C.I.A.L. RT battles.OK?

Better yet, why isn`t it important to have a realistic setting, like in fantasy or post apoc games, but then the combat has to be realistic?

Dont you think that is more realistic America attack Russia and we have Fallout Post Nuclear world, than people who moves one after another like in TB : :!: : :.

To RFlags:

What's the fun of clicking, clicking and more clicking?

Its more realistic.Thats enough for me.

In Fallout Tactics you can play both ways, do you play it Real Time?? What's the fun?? I tried to play-it RT and I think it sucked...

It sucked because you had to control whole group and you didnt have Pause.As i said before - a game with both RT and TB will suck .You just justify my theory

That's just my opinion, and do not get all worked up with that... I respect yours!!

Thats exactly what i want!You dont have problems with realizm and you like TB - thats cool with me.But people like Mr. Teatime didnt respect different kind of taste.I have tried to tell you - everyhing is up to the personal prefer.I like realistic things - i like RT.No right or wrong in the TB vs RT issue.And if you some kind of misunderstood me - i didnt said that TB is bad, i said that its not realistic so i dont like it too much, but still i enjoy Fallout, Jagged Alliance, Age Of Wonders, Heroes...

 

[Silvanoshei]

Yeah know, I think I remember a really good game title go right down the tubes just because they thought it'd be cool to go ahead and go with realtime fighting. That game folks, Master of Orion 3, is now on amazon.com for FREE and it's only been 2.5 months since its release.

If Fallout 3 goes ahead and ruins something thats made itself successful, why change it? Don't fix something thats not broken! What they need to do is just "enhance" the turn based system so it's even better. Better is in not, lets make a game that has both in it! BOS did that, and it's game sells are suffering because of it. If Sawyer wants his sells, he better not get rid of the turn based fighting.

I know he isn't, and is trying to put both in his FO3, but it'll fail, just like MOO3, just like BOS, it's a matter of will he learn, and will other companies learn as well? Final Fantasy is a great title, and you know what, they never changed their turn based system, and they most obviously are the most POPULAR game in the world. Enhance the graphics, storyline, make it bigger, more movies, just don't change the TURN BASED!! I vote on pleaing with Sawyer not to do it.

 

[Finster]

Pause and Resume!

I think pause and resume is a good compromise between real time and turn based, and if anyone knows how to explain this to the execs (really slow, no big words, lots of visual aids) and is in a position to do so, it might make for a decent Fallout 4. I'm assuming that too much code has been written to realistically beg for any changes to Van Buren.

If they'll let you dev guys work in multiplayer as a patch for VB, you might still end up with something you'd be willing to put on your resumés. Interplay seems to rush bug testing already, judging by all the patching needed to make FO finishable and FO2 playable -- and there were still crazy continuitiy problems in FO2 if you took advantage of the famous non-linear storyline instead of playing through according to a linear plotline as the testers must have done. Example: the bad Vault 13 ending in FO2; even if it WASN'T you who killed the Deathclaws you were accused of genocide. Also: car trunk. Also: unavoidable, frequent crashing, in my case, about 10 seconds after planting explosives on AHS-9 or President Richardson.

What I'm trying to say is, too many bells and whistles just make it even harder to release a functioning game, let alone a fun one, and that seems to be hard enough already. Look at the PC version of Final Fantasy VII. Some people couldn't even get it to load, much less figure out which of the hundred available patches they needed to download. I'm not saying that's a danger here; FF7 was assumed to sell based on the success of its console version, but it is a valid cautionary tale about what happens when ignorant execs have too much of a hand in production.

Anyway, back to pause and resume. I'd like to see it, and I'd rather it not be pause-on-demand, which is just a variation on real time. Instead, I'd like to see "turns" that last say, a second, during which all PCs and NPCs are performing actions that were defined beforehand by the player and the computer. Primary and secondary targets could be set, so if that one Pig Rat gets his head blown off or runs behind a wall, you won't just keep shooting his corpse or the wall. I think it would be fun, easy to learn without crippling the playing style of folks who want to be strategic, and similar enough to regular RT to implement alongside it without building an entirely different system (just in case you CAN still make changes, guys!) Plus, since everyone's acting at once, it would be properly realistic.

Turn-based means basically writing another game. Just adding a pause button to real-time utterly sucks. I hope I've been able to add something constructive. Lots of people here just seem to want to bitch.

 

[Briosafreak]

I hope I've been able to add something constructive. Lots of people here just seem to want to bitch.

Sure you did, the combat you`ve talked about seems a variation of phase-based, it may work, but in Fallout3 we`re going to have Turn-Based like in previous ones, with some tweaks, and Real-Time with pause, like in Baldurs Gate.

Yes you pause and stop the time, but the enimies stiil play at the same time with you!Not one after anther. Got it?

So the pausing the world doesn`t count, because it doesn`t enter your equation, brilliant dude

Thats because of Stupid AD&D rules.I didnt mean D&D Real time battles.I ment S.P.E.C.I.A.L. RT battles.OK?

Like the "marvellous" combat in Lionheart? It uses SPECIAL you know? Or besides D&D like Another War , that brilliant example of how not do combat?

Dont you think that is more realistic America attack Russia and we have Fallout Post Nuclear world, than people who moves one after another like in TB

It`s not about realism , it`s about fun or a sense of achievement, it`s about beeing motivated to cross an obstacle, inside a world that came from creative minds that use that creativity to set up rules in order to extend the pleasure of the player. If they wanted realism they would be doing documentaries to PBS

And it was a war between China and the US, with the EU and arab countries involved, are you sure you played the games?

Its more realistic.Thats enough for me.

Ok you have low standards, no problem with that , but i already explained why RT isn`t realistic, too bad you prefer to glide over that.

In TB the most important points are a greater importance of sequence and a mental game with boundaries set by the characters skills and other rules created standards, in RT with pause those things are less important because there`s a trade off with speed. Sometimes TB works better, others RT with pause may work better, but not because of an ilusional realism.

It sucked because you had to control whole group and you didnt have Pause.As i said before - a game with both RT and TB will suck .You just justify my theory

And in Jagged Alliance you had a great game, because of the Turn-Based combat....

Thats exactly what i want!You dont have problems with realizm and you like TB - thats cool with me.But people like Mr. Teatime didnt respect different kind of taste.I have tried to tell you - everyhing is up to the personal prefer.I like realistic things - i like RT.No right or wrong in the TB vs RT issue.And if you some kind of misunderstood me - i didnt said that TB is bad, i said that its not realistic so i dont like it too much, but still i enjoy Fallout, Jagged Alliance, Age Of Wonders, Heroes...

Ok you have good taste after all, just don`t start calling flaming people because they have another perspective on things, i`ve edited the insults to Mr. Teatime so you could have a chance to explain calmly what you intended.

By the way try the archives here on NMA, you`ll find many defending RT combat, and many more defending TB, with many valid ideas on both parts. So you didn`t brought anything new, i just responded because the realism argument is too tiresome, i was expecting it not to show up again...

 

[M-real]

Ok Briosafreak you just dont get it.I have one last question for you.Really last:

Do you really think that RT is not more realistic than TB ?

And by the way i choose USA and Russia for the example, because of the big possibility of conflict between theese two nations.Just remember the Cuban crisis.

 

[Briosafreak]

Do you really think that RT is not more realistic than TB ?

I don`t, but that`s not the point i was making, the point is realism isn`t important in an entertainment form that heavily relies in abstractions.

But let`s move on the discussion now, we all made our points, time to move on.

 

[RFlags]

M-REAL And you real think that RT is more realistic??
What's realistic in being surrounded by 100 enemies and be able to wipe them all?? In TB there are always rules that make realism, like the AC points (relative to your skills), that make the more agile, the first to fire... (Is this irrealistic?).
As for playing it in turns, and not all at once(like the pause system), it's more realistic, because (in real life) if you can take the first shot at a guy he dies before returning fire while in RT with pause they both fire at the same time(what's the odds of two different persons firing a gun at the same time??? Is this realistic???)

I agree with Briosafreak... realism is not an valid argument, because all games are irrealistic... Take GTAice City, is it realistic you being able to steal 100 cars/day and not being caught??? But is fun for sure!!!

Sorry for not moving along with the discussion...