Congrations NMA, you won.

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Gnarles Bronson, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. Gnarles Bronson

    Gnarles Bronson regular mutant

    373
    Oct 30, 2011
    When did the tide turn on Bethesda? I don't know but surely everyone here has noticed the shift. I remember getting trolled out of my mind on social media for smack talking Bethesda, and now a video called fallout 3 is garbage and here's why has nearly three million views on YouTube. And Reddit is constantly filled with memes about fallout NV being superior to fallout 4.

    I'm sure many of you feel as vindicated as I do, so I'd like to thank all of you for your tireless assault of petty comments. And while the war is far from over, I'd like to thank all of you for your service in defense against the scum of Hines and the other guy.
     
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  2. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Eh, Bethesda will continue to piss off dedicated fans, and people will keep buying there games because either they're unaware of the series, justify the stupidity, or because they give in.

    Winning and being accepted as valid are two very different things.
     
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  3. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Guest

    And our member count does not reflect those numbers...yet.
     
  4. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    That video is from almost a year and a half ago btw.
     
  5. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Slippy sloppy, The

    Sep 11, 2010
    That video also has about 40% thumbs down tho'.

    [edit]

    Also, the people who stick with a franchise and talk about it years after the latest release are the fans, whether they be old-school or nu-fans doesn't matter; They're fans of something in the series.

    So if you go to Fallout oriented messageboards/forums/chats/whatever then you'll see those fans right? They're the ones who stuck around. Even if the perception of Bethesda has shifted to something a bit more scrutinous(?) it doesn't really reflect the majority as the majority will be those who just buy their next game cause it's new and fresh and the previous one was fun to them cause they don't put as much thought into it and just want to have fun and their opinion is silent cause they've moved on cause they're not really "hardcore" fans in the first place.

    And we also need to take into consideration that Bethesda does not pump out games like Fifa or COD, it takes many years for a new entry in the series. In that time some will have moved on from gaming and some who were younger will have grown up a bit and be ready for a Bethesda game, fresh out of the vault. They won't know or care about all of this drama or baggage, all they'll care about is whether the game looks like it could be fun. And those who did hold grudges and criticism? 5 years is a lot of time. You might forget why you were so heated against Bethesda in the first place or you might have calmed down and stopped caring about those issues.

    I don't see how NMA has "won" really. :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  6. We haven't 'won'. The tide is turning because of paid mods. That's it. It's too blatant of a scam for even casual players to swallow. 'NMA' only 'wins' if some gameplay revolution occurs, and even then NMA isn't the one at the vanguard charging into the fray....
     
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  7. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Doesn't really matter.
    Victory will be when we stop talking about games made by the owner of the Fallout brand and focus on actual Fallout games. (mods and spiritual successors)
    Unless the current owner of the Fallout brand ends up making an actual Fallout game...

    I tend to think that this community was gathered around the core value that made us love the same game, not the need to care about a brand that doesn't provide those.
     
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  8. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    I feel confident with the following statements.
    Bethesda does not care about its fans, Bethesda cares about its profit margin.
    Any attempt to bridge the two together will yield large amounts of butt hurt and whining.

    From my perspective the fans of the originals basically consider the IP dead.
    The new fans are too busy crapping all over each other to even begin a reasonable dialog yet.

    Bethesda profits from the confusion. The next hype train will crush the "new" old fans to generate a new clique of fans.
     
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  9. Ben Soto

    Ben Soto Professional Salt Shaker

    731
    Jul 7, 2014
    This is starting to sound like a No True Scotsman fallacy. Everybody has a slightly different idea of what a Fallout game should be. The focus should be on getting Bethesda to make high-quality games and to be more consumer friendly, not making them adhere to a particular definition of what Fallout is.
     
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  10. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Fucking bullshit. We already have Tim Cain's vision and philosophy he penned upon making Fallout 1. That, and only that, is the valid definition of Fallout, and Bethesda did everything wrong by not adhering to them.

    Want Bethesda to make high-quality games and be more consumer friendly? Then they should stop milking Skyrim/FO4 and CC, THEN make them adhere to Tim Cain's vision to make high-quality Fallout.
     
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  11. Tiny Tim

    Tiny Tim Still Mildly Glowing

    204
    Sep 29, 2015
    I must say i came here to start a similar thread not because of the above video ( which is indeed a year and a half ago and has many dislikes but maybe it played its part ) but because, well, the tide has clearly turned comrades.

    It's not just because of paid mods either. No, i think it's because of Fallout 4. More and more people in nearly every discussion about fallout, be it on reddit, steam reviews or youtube comments, turn up to say that they wish obsidian would make another fallout or that fallout 4 was not a good fallout game or whatever. It's almost a mainstream opinion by now, shared by people who haven't even played the classics and cannot be accused of "nostalgia". Sure the mainstream reviewers worshipped fallout 4 for a while but no one cares about that anymore, in fact it's safe to say now that fallout 4 has had a mixed reaction.

    I think it has become clear to everyone who has any understanding of game mechanics and storytelling whatsoever that fallout new vegas was a much, much better game than fallout 4 in practically every regard.

    I imagine bethesda didn't see that coming when they casually hired obsidian to make a fallout 3.5 game
     
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  12. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Guest

    The only thing we could "win" is new members and I don't see them. Being right doesn't amount to much.
     
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  13. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    There's no real victory tbh. The current dislike of Bethesda will eventually pass with time as does all things based on the kind of bullshit that pervades the industry.

    While it is nice that people are starting to see Bethesda in a more critical light without hype-blinders, the next Bethesda hype train will probably cause all their recent negative reception to fade out.

    Except Tim Cain and Obsidian with Sawyer (plus Cain is in Obsidian so that helps) have an idea what Fallout should be. If Bethesda legitimately wants to make high quality Fallout games, they need to follow along with the ideas of those games and not squander the IP with ultimately forgettable open world games with little polish (and non-consumer friendly review policies to boot).
     
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  14. Ben Soto

    Ben Soto Professional Salt Shaker

    731
    Jul 7, 2014
    Even among Fallout devs there was disagreement. For example, a good chunk of people would agree that both Sawyer and Avellone have a good idea of what the franchise should be, but their ideas are contradictory. Sawyer is going for post-post-apocalyptic, while Avellone wants to do more recently post-apocalyptic. There isn't just one definition for Fallout. And that's just on the story side of things. Among both fans and developers there's disagreement as to how the games should actually play.
     
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  15. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    Though I think there is a right and a wrong notion of what Fallout is or should be, the world of Fallout is bigger than just a handful of people's visions for it (and I would argue, the specific plotlines of each game). The devs who are being treated like the founding fathers of the franchise, whose decisions are apparently tantamount to the drafting of a constitution, were being creative when they made those choices. They just wanted to make good games by focusing on storytelling. Trying to keep Fallout 'traditional' in terms of results *and not* methods is the wrong approach to making a quality Fallout game (and I would argue the games themselves demonstrate as much). So, the execution is important as Soto is saying.

    However, the concept is important as well. The franchise needs to stay true to itself, as well as to the fans (or at least be honest in advertising), because these are crucial aspects of the right method. I think the broadstrokes are fairly obvious (e.g choice, consequence, distinct builds, cynical, satirical, 1950s retrofuturism + a Mad Maxian post apocalypse), even if the amount of wiggle room is debatable. At the end of the day people like what Fallout was, because it was good. If the next Fallout game was good, but not quite what people thought Fallout was, then that would be fine because it's something capable of growing. On the other hand, continuity errors are definitely a problem. So there are clear examples of where the franchise went wrong, but doing something new--unto itself--just isn't one of them.
     
  16. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Those details are merely technical, and superficial compared to mechanics like roleplaying elements. Tim Cain's design philosophy for Fallout 1 he penned those years ago wasn't something specific like Sawyer's and Avellone's vision of whether going back to post-apocalyptic or not, but something more grand and cover a larger scope than those details. The difference between Sawyer-Avellone and Bethesda, however, is that Sawyer-Avellone DO stayed true to Tim Cain's vision when they made Fallout: New Vegas and its' DLCs.

    Care to elaborate further with what do you mean by that? I understand what you were trying to say with previous sentences. However, my arguments wasn't about a matter of 'keeping things traditional in terms of result'. It's about 'not fixing what's broken' or even 'not changing something that's just right/perfect'.

    Because those design principles Tim Cain penned for Fallout 1? Those are perfect. They are the method. That's why I wholeheartedly disagree with Ben Soto's sentiment that "Everybody has a slightly different idea of what a Fallout game should be.", because everybody's slightly different idea of what a Fallout game should be doesn't matter when Tim Cain has already laid the core design principle for what a Fallout game should be with those 5 main points written down on the design document. Soto then went on to state that Sawyer and Avellone is the example of devs having clashing idea on 'what a Fallout game should be', except their different ideas are something rather superficial because they don't try to change or remove any of the Tim Cain's principle. naossano's point was actually about that, hence why he mentioned Fallout mods like the TC ones, like Fallout 1.5: Resurrection. Because damn, those mods adhered to Tim Cain's vision, while Bethesda doesn't.

    Although Sawyer and Avellone has their own idea of what a Fallout game should be in that regard (post-post-post-apocalyptic vs. post-apocalyptic), I'm actually more interested in what would Tim Cain would envision as the future/sequel of Fallout, or at least a successor to it. Since I've talked about design principles and all that jazz, I will mention that some of the Old Bloods sees that Arcanum is more faithful to Fallout than the nu-Fallout game. And that's what I'm talking about, because Arcanum was made by Tim Cain, and Tim Cain's vision for Fallout sticks all the way to Arcanum. The question now is, is it the same with Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines?
     
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  17. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Are you referring to this design doc by any chance?:
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...atement.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20120312141016
    I miss actual sense of urgency in the games. Plus looking at the statement, I can see the ways Bethesda has not adhered to the doc (though NV bears some culpability for non-adherence too...)

    Yeah there is disagreement, but at least those ideas are still adhering to the design doc to some degree that Black Angel appears to be mentioning. Personally, I disagree with Avellone's view on the setting but if it went that direction with a feasible lore-friendly manner, I can accept it. It's doing a lot more for the franchise and the setting than Fallout 4 did.
     
  18. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Guest

    If we got the Fallout RTS game we were about to the series would have even more of a split personality than it already does.
     
  19. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Not exactly that, because it's a vision statement specifically for Fallout 1. What I meant is this http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Vault_13:_A_GURPS_Post-Nuclear_Adventure
    You can also check out this guy's video instead, if you haven't already

    Which is basically a groundwork principles for any Fallout games. Fallout 2 adhered to it, even if the game's itself lacked in focus that Fallout 1 has. Fallout: New Vegas adhered to it, even if it was stained by Beth's shitty engine and design decision for Fallout 3. Hell, fucking Fallout 3 somewhat adhered at least to rule #1, while Fallout 4 just dropped the whole thing.

    Many games inspired by Fallout these days, like Age of Decadence and Underrail, although maybe they didn't specifically adhered to these rules, at least you can see they fit the bill, while still standing as their own thing. You can also see how these principles stick to Tim Cain all the way to Arcanum.
     
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  20. Ediros

    Ediros Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    965
    Feb 4, 2016
    We lost this war when bugthesda acquired Fallout franchise.

    Fallout New Vegas was a ray of light that showed new Fallout fans how the franchise should be.

    However, even with disgusting practices game companies employ, people still buy their crap. So what if shitout 4 has got mixed reviews? People will stay jump on the hype train and be disappointed again, but new fans will come and the cycle will continue.

    Look what is going on, glorified gambling aka lootboxes, EA patenting an algorithm that will make new players play with old players so they get frustrated, buy a gun from the store and be put on the winning team to justify their purchase. Paid cheats in video games - shadow of more dough, bugthesda stopping reviews till day one, paid mods etc.

    We are fucked, the whole industry is fucked, Fallout will not be back and even if video game crash happens, what is stopping another abomination like EA from buying the rights and turning it into cash cow? Absolutely nothing.

    We have lost, all we can do is search for some hidden gems in this pile of rubbish industry, like remnants of the past ages, when demos existed and buying a game gave you all the content or didn't try to rob you on every corner.
     
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