Congrations NMA, you won.

Soto
To make things more simple. Let's say NMA was a community of people fond of orange. Wouldn't it make more sense for us to talk about any kind of orange, even if they were called lemon or clementine, rather than waste time talking about apples, pineapple and skateboard that were sold with the orange name on it ? Nothing agains't those who love apples and skateboards, but what brought the community together in the first place was the content of an orange, its color, its smell, its taste, not the word itself. I don't see why we should care about product that only have the orange name, but none of its appeal.
 
naossano said:
Soto
To make things more simple. Let's say NMA was a community of people fond of orange. Wouldn't it make more sense for us to talk about any kind of orange, even if they were called lemon or clementine, rather than waste time talking about apples, pineapple and skateboard that were sold with the orange name on it ? Nothing agains't those who love apples and skateboards, but what brought the community together in the first place was the content of an orange, its color, its smell, its taste, not the word itself. I don't see why we should care about product that only have the orange name, but none of its appeal.
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Well, we'd care because now only the manufacturers of the other things now have the "Orange" legal rights, and only they can explicitly bring a new selection of Orange, and actually do have a chance of doing so.

While there are other parties working with apricot, bittersweet, cantaloupe, carrot, coral, peach, salmon, tangerine, titian, andred-yellow and they are something worth checking out and supporting, unless there are changes beyond our possibilities afecting the Orange ownership, people will talk about it because it's not like it has absolutely nothing to do, like say, they do smell like Orange. They and their reception will affect its future, which ideally would be to get closer to True Orange, as it actually has done in the past.

Nevermind how this faux-Orange is influential by itself and inspires different kinds of third party content.

...

Yes, I used the dictionary for "Orange" synonims, fuck you
 
I'm really not sure what Arnust is getting at with that. However I do understand what Naossano is trying to convey.

An IP is very much similar to a word, or definition of such. When a company acquires an IP they are free to "redefine" its property as they see fit, however they cannot redefine literal words in the case of what defines specific RPG game play mechanics.

When an IP that is almost entirely defined by specific mechanics then later redesigned to exclude those definitions the IP has not only lost its foundation, but has also falsely advertised itself as something it is by definition not.

However that's where communities such as NMA come in as an attempt to redirect flow back on track, or at least keep the core elements alive enough for someone to take notice of the deviation. This is a communities only option as they do not have direct control or maintain the rights of a specific IP.

Basically communities such as NMA are the foundation that maintains the archived perception of what made an IP great. Without such a community the IP would be severely reduced, as well the genre it defines.
 
Black Angel said:
Care to elaborate further with what do you mean by that? I understand what you were trying to say with previous sentences. However, my arguments wasn't about a matter of 'keeping things traditional in terms of result'. It's about 'not fixing what's broken' or even 'not changing something that's just right/perfect'.

Because those design principles Tim Cain penned for Fallout 1? Those are perfect. They are the method. That's why I wholeheartedly disagree with Ben Soto's sentiment that "Everybody has a slightly different idea of what a Fallout game should be.", because everybody's slightly different idea of what a Fallout game should be doesn't matter when Tim Cain has already laid the core design principle for what a Fallout game should be with those 5 main points written down on the design document. Soto then went on to state that Sawyer and Avellone is the example of devs having clashing idea on 'what a Fallout game should be', except their different ideas are something rather superficial because they don't try to change or remove any of the Tim Cain's principle. naossano's point was actually about that, hence why he mentioned Fallout mods like the TC ones, like Fallout 1.5: Resurrection. Because damn, those mods adhered to Tim Cain's vision, while Bethesda doesn't.

Rule #1: Multiple Decisions. We will always allow for multiple solutions to any obstacle.
Rule #2: No Useless Skills. The skills we allow you to take will have meaning in the game.
Rule #3: Dark humor was good. Slap-stick was not.
Rule #4: Let the player play how he wants to play.
Rule #5: Your actions have repercussions."
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I didn't see those rules in the link you suggested btw...sort of confused about that. 2 was never adhered to, 3 sounds more like an assessment made after Fo2, kind of surprised 4 isn't gender neutral considering that playing as a woman was always an option. Either way they're fine rules, and this is part of what I mean by broadstrokes. Those are reasonable constraints.

Traditional just means what or how something was done in that context. I'm not saying I wholeheartedly disagree with what you were saying, nor do I completely agree with Soto. I just don't think it's as simple as one or the other, though I usually hate hearing that kind of thing. The fallacy of balance or moderation isn't my intention.

However both concept and execution are crucial to what made Fallout games good. Room to evolve and get creative just happens to be conducive to good game design, and I think that is evident in the better titles. Such as how the vaults became experiments. There was no sense of a dark conspiracy in Fallout, but in Fallout 2 that's front and center.

On a somewhat separate note, if we take examine the 'don't fix what isn't broken' idea from a different perspective, from that of a dev making a new game, it would mean hedging your bet, making a safe game, with tried and true mechanics, and a story based on whatever is popular at present. What would Fallout be if Cain had taken that view? How is an artist to know when something is just right? Were the vaults just right before they became experiments? Were deathclaws perfect before they were made intelligent in Fo2? What of being 3d, in real time, with a 1st and 3rd person perspective? Was it better before? Ultimately I don't think we're really disagreeing, if that was the impression you got. I also don't think anyone is saying Fallout games shouldn't have multiple decisions, freedom, and consequence.
 
We will have won, at least in my opinion, when Bethesda goes bankrupt and Obsidian buys the Fallout license.
 
I don't know if anyone here has bothered to keep up to date on the current events of Obsidian, but as they are now you don't want them to have the rights to the Fallout IP. "Why?" Some of you may ask?

Because what made Obsidian great previously for Fallout New Vegas was mostly the original development team from Fallout 2. However they have all left that company due to Obsidian having complications, and a rather large swath of lay offs.

I also strongly urge everyone to actually research my statements here, and come to there own conclusions.

Either way the outcome is that Obsidian could not stack up to New Vegas in its current state. Time to put your hopes in dreams somewhere else.
 
It's not like oranges & apples (at least those are both fruit)... FO3 & 4 are officially branded, yet they are nigh polar opposite to Fallout on all fronts... FO3 is practically like Nutella impostering as Vegemite; exploiting the name for its reputation. FO4 is an 'improved' version with more sugar, and added strawberries.
 
Einhanderc7 said:
I don't know if anyone here has bothered to keep up to date on the current events of Obsidian, but as they are now you don't want them to have the rights to the Fallout IP. "Why?" Some of you may ask?

Because what made Obsidian great previously for Fallout New Vegas was mostly the original development team from Fallout 2. However they have all left that company due to Obsidian having complications, and a rather large swath of lay offs.

I also strongly urge everyone to actually research my statements here, and come to there own conclusions.

Either way the outcome is that Obsidian could not stack up to New Vegas in its current state. Time to put your hopes in dreams somewhere else.
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You need to research your facts. Obsidian didn't have the original Fo2 team when they made New Vegas. Avellone didn't even write much of the of the base game (he did most of the DLC tho, and those are the ones I have gripes with.
 
Walpknut said:
You need to research your facts. Obsidian didn't have the original Fo2 team when they made New Vegas. Avellone didn't even write much of the of the base game (he did most of the DLC tho, and those are the ones I have gripes with.
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You do understand that Obsidian was founded right after Black Isle was dissolved right? And that currently none of those individuals from the original crew currently work for Obsidian anymore. I also never said they had the "full" team to begin with, or perhaps I'm reading too far into your statement?

From what information I am aware of those that did work on Fallout 2 did indeed have input during the development of Fallout New Vegas.

Although I can see some of them opting out after the Bethesda contract was read.
 
Einhanderc7 said:
You do understand that Obsidian was founded right after Black Isle was dissolved right?
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Everyone here (and ~ergo their spouse and/or parents begrudgingly) knows that.

And that currently none of those individuals from the original crew currently work for Obsidian anymore.
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But where are you getting your information? I haven't been keeping up, but I am under the impression that Tim Cain is a senior software engineer at Obsidian; Tim Cain—that began making Fallout by himself. And Feargus Urquart is still CEO?
(Feargus did map work in the Hub, and is himself responsible for putting the Hero Blaster from Blade Runner in Fallout; later used in New Vegas.)

Last I heard, Leonard Boyarski had signed on too, he designed the look of the Power Armor. Has he left?
 
I've heard this whole "The original team has left" bullshit propagated 100 times before.

Like, I know lots of folks have left, but the only really important leaver was Chris Avellone, who didn't do that much work on the base game anyway. Most of the most important figures in the history of Fallout still work for Obsidian.
 
Jogre said:
Like, I know lots of folks have left, but the only really important leaver was Chris Avellone, who didn't do that much work on the base game anyway. Most of the most important figures in the history of Fallout still work for Obsidian.
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The question is, how good they are now and can they handle Arcanum sequel?
 
MutantScalper said:
It's a pyrrhic victory.
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They lost one frankly overrated writer who only actually worked on the DLC of NV and two companions from Pillars of Eternity, meaning the vast majority of what made those games good happened independently of him(Chris Avellone), and now have one of the most important figures in the history of Fallout who is responsible for a huge amount of well-beloved parts of the franchise including the retrofuturistic side(Leonard Boyarksy)

That's not a pyrrhic victory by any stretch of the word.
 
NMLevesque said:
I didn't see those rules in the link you suggested btw...sort of confused about that. 2 was never adhered to, 3 sounds more like an assessment made after Fo2, kind of surprised 4 isn't gender neutral considering that playing as a woman was always an option. Either way they're fine rules, and this is part of what I mean by broadstrokes. Those are reasonable constraints.
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Weird. I didn't remember linking to 'gamepedia', but 'wikia', so try this. Unless.... someone changed it or it's redirected.... http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Vault_13:_A_GURPS_Post-Nuclear_Adventure

Yeah, #2 wasn't exactly adhered to in Fallout 1&2, but it WAS adhered to by New Vegas. All we needed is give them another chance, another go at the original style of Fallout. And don't forget my mention of Arcanum, there's no useless skill there because those design principle kinda stick to Tim Cain.

NMLevesque said:
On a somewhat separate note, if we take examine the 'don't fix what isn't broken' idea from a different perspective, from that of a dev making a new game, it would mean hedging your bet, making a safe game, with tried and true mechanics, and a story based on whatever is popular at present. What would Fallout be if Cain had taken that view? How is an artist to know when something is just right? Were the vaults just right before they became experiments? Were deathclaws perfect before they were made intelligent in Fo2? What of being 3d, in real time, with a 1st and 3rd person perspective? Was it better before? Ultimately I don't think we're really disagreeing, if that was the impression you got.
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Again, all of those are just technicality; i.e details that would either add or detract from the core principles. But they don't touch the core, hence they're fine so long as they don't deviate too far or even outright ignore the core principles. Like I said before of Soto's argument that Sawyer vs. Avellone, for example, they argued whether Fallout should carry on to post-post-post-apocalyptic, or get nuked back to post-apocalyptic. In this clash of ideas between Sawyer and Avellone, none of them really tried to change by adding or removing the 5 core principle made by Cain and co.

Edit: Aaaaaand I was right. This fucking site redirected the 'wikia' links to 'gamepedia' instead. This is what I linked in my post:
2h2pox1.jpg


I forgot if I ever mentioned this in this thread, but I suggest you watch this guy instead
Or just read the essay for the video https://pastebin.com/kV9zJkxu

Edit #2: Got the archive to the whole real deal, take a look at it. Specifically, page 5 https://archive.is/02ipM
 
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