Consumer response to the banning of Manhunt 2.

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Pariah, Jun 26, 2007.

  1. Seraphim Pwns U

    Seraphim Pwns U It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 9, 2006
    I don't like the game, I don't like what it's about, I honestly detest it with every ounce of my being...

    ...but no person walking God's green Earth is going to tell me what I can or cannot play. That is my decision, and mine alone.

  2. slamelov

    slamelov Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 29, 2006
    Today is Manhunt, Tomorrow could be BioShock, where you can kill those little "collectors". I don't like console games, and Manhunt is a console game, but I want to choose myself what I want to play.

    If they ban videogames, then should start to ban books and films also. What about Hostel?
  3. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    Don't give them ideas :twitch:
  4. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    Today Manhunt, tomorrow the world!
  5. Pariah

    Pariah First time out of the vault

    Jun 28, 2006
    I really don't care how people define it. The basic principles of the system itself have always been used to launch dictatorial careers. Even if I were to believe that it was being perverted by the time they made their intentions known, the fact of the matter is that the protocol of communism is to route all functions of the citizenry through an authoritative force that literally tells people what they can and cannot have based on the sheer populace that the government has to support. By comparison, dictatorship and the textbook definition of communism don't differ so much.

    When you have to entrust your life to a system, everything breaks down. The government is not a consortium of human beings; they just follow and enforce the system's rules. Communism essentially wants you to rely on a cold insensitive robot that has no perception of context. Because Capitalism allows the individual citizen to break away from government dependency, the system wouldn't even need to be sensitive to context.


    If the game being banned were Fallout, would you still be so adamant not to care?
  6. slamelov

    slamelov Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 29, 2006
    I don't care what do you think about it. The fact is that communism does not talk about censorship or any kind of totalitarism. Communism is a social system, may be utopic, but is not bad by himself.

    My Country suffered 40 years of totalitarism with Francisco Franco, and, as you know, Francisco Franco hated communist. Spain was a capitalist country, also a totalitarist country. The same for Chile with Augusto Pinochet, Argentina with Videla, Portugal, Birmany... many capitalist countrys were ruled by dictators.

    Communism does not talk about control people, it proposes a socialization where there is not classes and everybody works for a common cause. I do not know if it's bad, or better, only a different system. A democratic Country could be communist. In fact, is the basic principle of communism. The people should rule. Of course it could not be perfect, but... does it capitalism?.

  7. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    Obviously not. But, you know, you can't compare Manhunt to Fallout.

    Your point?
  8. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    Err... I didn't write anything like this.
  9. slamelov

    slamelov Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 29, 2006
    So, do you think that bad games should be banned?. "Bad games" is a very personal term
  10. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    Whoops. My bad, Sorrow, fixed.


    I said I didn't mind crap games being banned. In the same way:

    I don't support the death penalty, I don't believe people should be killed legally. At the same time, I wouldn't mind Pat Robertson being hung, shot, eviscerated, run over by a freight train, defecated upon and set fire to what's left.

    As long as it happens to crap, I don't care. Nevertheless, I get the idea that if we let this happen to crap games, the same legislation might apply to good games in the future.
  11. Pariah

    Pariah First time out of the vault

    Jun 28, 2006
    This is all true.

    At the same time however, most if not all of those leaders siezed their positions. In the case of the socialist tragedies, the dictators were given a foot-hold by the system itself.

    Even Hitler, a conservative, used social woes to hypnotize the German people after he assassinated most of his colleagues.

    In any case, I wasn't emphasizing the dictators themselves, I'm talking about the danger the system poses by leaving society open for a rape session.

    Franklin said it best:

    "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    If you believe in free speech, but decide not to support its principles, your apathy will only serve in deteriorating its credibility until socially organized upheavel really does decide to ban shit that you care about.
  12. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    I ain't purchasing any "temporary safeties", Captain America.

    I don't care about Manhunt's fate, and I'm not giving away any liberty, as I'm not going to play that pieceashit anyway.

    That's when I would do something about it. As it is, I could care less.
  13. Pariah

    Pariah First time out of the vault

    Jun 28, 2006
    You seem to be tolerating them though.

    Right now, your favorite games in particular are safe, but the gaming world in general is still being compromised--With Manhunt being the first conquest of the PTA and Thompsonian social groups.

    This game, one you happen to dislike, is only the beginning.
  14. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    Actually the fact that developers are deciding to make some of the non-combat NPCs in games unkillable or not put them into games at all shows that they are winning.
  15. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    Bullshit, don't stuff words in my mouth. I explicitly made it clear that I wasn't a supporter of "banning" games due to their content.

    Hardly. You're being very fatalistic about this, don't you remember the Carmageddon controversy, and how it affected the game's sales in Germany? Remember the GTA:SA "hot coffee" mod and the nudity issue in the Sims2? The recent mini-scandal about that other game, in which you shoot things in a church, infuriating some priests?

    You're over-reacting.
  16. aries369

    aries369 Still Mildly Glowing

    Feb 2, 2007
    Ok, then...

    Well, first for the politacl stuff.

    Socialism is the Labourclass predominance (or power) over ALL major (and minor) classes, inclduing the bourgeousie. In Socialism, the state plays a very helpfull role in shaping the communities of the nation, indoctrinating them basically with the state's truth about how things are run and such things. It also means that the state is responsible for the kids' upbringing, not the parents. This leads to the state also being responsible for how people behave, meaning that the state has the power to tell people not to touch other people, because some other people might be offended by it.

    The state also has the final say over which cultural products it will allow, only allowing such products which serve the benefit of the working class - and the socialist revolution, thus banning all porno games, and all games that ate too dark and violent since these could be labeled as propaganda made by the bourgeosie. Because in the socialist area all people are supposed to be happy all day :)

    Communism is the end goal of socialism. It is a form of civil society in which the state is withered away and IS no more. True communism is about people that self-govern themselves in small enclaves in the land and such things. It has nothing to do with the monstrosities that once were called (or are) called Communist countries in which a small minority, called the Bureacracy, has risen to power, and now oppresses the people. (hey, I'm at NMA, I can say these things here...). The rightwing libertarians and the leftwing anarchits do have thing in common, the abolishments of the state, or the idea that less state = a very good idea.

    The tragic :( thing right now seems to be that the bureacracy in the (once free) western countries has risen to power, on the back of the fear of terror so prevalent during these years. And that this has led to state intervention in a much larger scale than before in the western countries - just to keep us safe from terror. (and no, I don't support terror - in any shape, way or form...)

    Subesequently, it seems that people have now accepted the state's intervention in their life in a way nobody would have thought possible 20 years ago. Millions of surveying cameras are looking down on us, giving us a false sense of security, since we think these cameras can provide shelter from our fears of being robbed, beaten or being victims of of a a terrorattack. They really can't, though, since people will do these things anyway, because most people act hurridly and improvised, and not in a calm, planned way....

    The worst thing about these state interventions in our lives is that we are told that they are for our own good or for our protection or for our protection of our children, also when they clearly are not so.
    The worst case of this was when Germany's General Attorney (or minister of the justice or was it in the interior? ) said that she wanted Manhunt 2 banned 'because that our children shouldn't be playing such a game'. That may be, Frau Minister, but Manhunt 2 never was intended to be a kids' game, it was always intended to be a game for (responsible) adults over the age of 18. That's why PEGI did give Manhunt 2 a rating of 18+ --- please remember this.
    And please try to remember that the average PC gamer now is about 27-29 years of age, and that computergames are not just for kids anymore ;)

    I agree with all (or most of) the other posters here, that state shouldn't decide (or ought not to decide) whether or no adult men and women ought to play Manhunt 2 or not. And thus, I agree that the no rating=banning of Manhunt 2 in the UK isn't a good sign.

    I'm more baffled with the AO rating in the United States, but from what I can gather this had more to with some tv-screens showing porn in one of the levels in the game, and some other places?, more than with the actual violence in the game itself. My guess is that if Rockstar Games just changes the tv-screen images and some other few things, then the game will be released with an M rating - in the US.

    As for the killing of children and essential NPCs that can't be killed, well, I'm really indifferent to whether or not I can kill children in a game. I can certainly see why people would want that choice, if they are prepared to take the consequenses for it, of course. Some NPCs needs to be marked as essential, I think, especially in today's more complex games where every NPC is moving about in the gameworld. If you, as a game developer, don't do that, you'd better provide the player with a backup plan to get the info he needs - from other npcs.

    The game which infuriated the Anglican Church was 'Resistance: Fall of Man.' And the shooting was done outside the building, not inside. (remember Highlander: No weapons on hallowed ground, i.e. inside the church). Even the Anglican Church has no say over what's going on outside the Manchester Cathedral, since this is viewed as a public place. They don't have IP rights to the Cathedral itself, though, since it was built for the glory of God way back in the - eh --- a very very long time ago, several hundreds of years ago, actually. And the Master Builder at that time didn't do ti for himselg, he did it because he wanted people to know the glory of God. (just saying ;) ).

    The problem with giving in to these sorts of thing is this: If & when you give in to these sorts of thing, game developers can't make games anymore, filmmakers can't make films anymore. How do you think the Metro in Washington D.C. will feel when they learn that Bethesda has filled their subwaytunnels with supermutants and encourages you to shoot at the supermutants?? Not well, I should think. Several movies about WW2 show fighting in front of Notre Dame, in Paris, I believe? This just to show you that you easily can offend someone's feelings by making a game, writing a book or making a film. But that's one of the prices we have to pay for living in a (yet) somewhat free country - to risk that our feelings, religious or otherwise, can be offended.

    And I for one think that this is an issue well worth (still) fighting for - the freedom of speech shall always prevail :salute:
  17. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    You could've just used the words 'slippery slope' and be done with it, you know?