Could Elijah escape?

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

SnapSlav, as Stanislao pointed out, how this could be cheating?

Snapslav is complaining about exploits and cheating, and that's definitively exploiting an oversight.

Ok, then explain what this mysterious "oversight" is.

All I'm seeing is someone using an environment object to break line of sight while sneaking (an extremely common practice), and then simply walking out unobstructed, plain and simple.

Well...THAT is the oversight? Duh? What do you think an oversight is? What were you expecting? The "generator", or whatever that is, shouldn't have been there. Since the production of the DLC wasn't exactly super long and it needs a bit of trial and error (if you are too slow Elijah activates the barrier) I guess they didn't realize it was possible.

And if it really was so simple and obvious you wouldn't have a bazillion of videos showing how you can leave with all the gold. And funnily enough a lot of them don't use the oh-so-simple method of using the generator to avoid Elijah's line of sight and simply walk to the exit.

 

[Dienan]

A lot of people on this thread sees others as 'twisted mofos'. Why can't they just imagine that those 'twisterd mofos' were actually ROLE PLAYING?

 

[sigma1932]

Ok, then explain what this mysterious "oversight" is.

All I'm seeing is someone using an environment object to break line of sight while sneaking (an extremely common practice), and then simply walking out unobstructed, plain and simple.

The "generator", or whatever that is, shouldn't have been there.

Why shouldn't that object be there? It's not like they just plopped some random object down without building everything else around it like it's supposed to be there and then just forgot to delete it later... there's even a similar object on the other side of the vault entrance.

Also, how do you know they didn't know it was possible and purposely left it in (or for that matter purposely put it in there in the first place) to make getting all the gold bars out a reward for creative players playing a stealthy build? Have any of the developers literally come right out and publicly stated "you're not supposed to be able to leave with all the gold bars"?

If that's still not good enough, people have found other hiding spots besides that free-standing object that work, and of course there's always the stealthboy and non-GRX Turbo (if any can be obtained in the DLC, don't recall for sure) methods for which the mechanics have been there the whole time... so yeah.

And if it really was so simple and obvious you wouldn't have a bazillion of videos showing how you can leave with all the gold. And funnily enough a lot of them don't use the oh-so-simple method of using the generator to avoid Elijah's line of sight and simply walk to the exit.

And many of them don't involve using stealthy tactics at all... which is fine... not every character in an RPG is going to have decent stealth skills or a stealthboy at their disposal... Although I will agree that non-stealthy methods generally use glitches of some kind to get the gold out.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Ok, then explain what this mysterious "oversight" is.

All I'm seeing is someone using an environment object to break line of sight while sneaking (an extremely common practice), and then simply walking out unobstructed, plain and simple.

The "generator", or whatever that is, shouldn't have been there.

Why shouldn't that object be there? It's not like they just plopped some random object down without building everything else around it like it's supposed to be there and then just forgot to delete it later... there's even a similar object on the other side of the vault entrance.

It shouldn't be there because it allows the player to stay hidden from Elijah, obviously.

Also, how do you know they didn't know it was possible and purposely left it in (or for that matter purposely put it in there in the first place) to make getting all the gold bars out a reward for creative players playing a stealthy build? Have any of the developers literally come right out and publicly stated "you're not supposed to be able to leave with all the gold bars"?

Let's see...

-The DLC starts and ends with the narrating voice stating that "the hard part is letting go".
-All the NPCs of the DLC suffer from their inability to let go.
-Dean, Elijah and God state time and time again how people exploring the Sierra Madre died because they got greedy.
-We also find multiple examples of the above, scattered around.
-Elijah even had to connect all the collars together to force people to NOT kill each other.
-Then you find a mountain of gold that normally will get you killed if you get greedy and try to take all of it with you (the hard part is letting go).

Nah, it's just a coincidence.

If that's still not good enough, people have found other hiding spots besides that free-standing object that work, and of course there's always the stealthboy and non-GRX Turbo (if any can be obtained in the DLC, don't recall for sure) methods for which the mechanics have been there the whole time... so yeah.

It's so absurd to think that developers might NOT be able to think of everything? Especially when they have tight deadlines to work with?

The original Prince of Persia (1989) is notable for having a time limit of one hour. In the first level the titular Prince is unarmed and he has to explore the level to obtain a sword and defeat the guard that protects the exit, located just a couple of screens from the start. Or...you know...you can just jump above the guard and leave, saving multiple precious minutes. I'm sure it was totally done on purpose, right?

Turbo can't be found or crafted in DM, by the way.

 

[Dienan]

^ In Honest Hearts, when you try to bring more than a set amount of inventory weight to Zion, there is a check and you have to reduce the weight to 70lbs (100lbs) to start the DLC. Simply put, if the gold was not supposed to be taken out of the vault and to the wasteland you (the devs) could've set a weight limit on the vault lift and not let the player carry thousands of pounds (as an obvious trap in the event Dean Domino robbing it). Oversight? I don't think so. They made it possible as a reward for creative thinking and using skills/character build properly. Not an oversight by a large margin. Sir, your argument is invalid.. Just stop the hate already!

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

How would they do that? Have a screen pop up saying "you can't leave with that much in you inventory?"
Don't you think that would be a little jarring?

Now, what they should have done is stop the player from moving at all when a certain limit is reached, like in stalker. This would require changing how the very weight mechanics work.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Sir, your argument is invalid..

Invalid? No. At least I have the argument that it goes against the theme of the DLC, yours boils down to "it's possible therefore they allowed it to be possible" (even though history of videogames says otherwise). You could be right that Obsidian realized it was possible to leave the vault with all the gold and did nothing to reward player that tried hard, but you have no proof of that.

Seriously, check this and this pages to see that dev teams not always think of everything.

 

[Dienan]

I didn't even click on your links (using nokia 5130 here). I know that they put the buttons and switches on the left side of the pip-boy, forcing the user to use their right hand to operate the pip boy, covering the display. If they did forget THAT, then what you're saying is true. However that wasn't my point..

 

[sigma1932]

Why shouldn't that object be there? It's not like they just plopped some random object down without building everything else around it like it's supposed to be there and then just forgot to delete it later... there's even a similar object on the other side of the vault entrance.

It shouldn't be there because it allows the player to stay hidden from Elijah, obviously.

So, your whole argument revolves around "It lets the player do something I think they shouldn't be able to do, therefore it shouldn't be there".

I suppose this method (which wasn't executed as efficiently as it could've been and doesn't require the stealthboy) means that the whole other path to the elevator door shouldn't be there either, huh?

Hmm, while we're at it, maybe they should've just built a huge, flat, game-world, completely devoid of all vertical relief and things to hide behind during combat because people might use it to break line of sight so they can sneak around...

Let's see...

-The DLC starts and ends with the narrating voice stating that "the hard part is letting go".
-All the NPCs of the DLC suffer from their inability to let go.
-Dean, Elijah and God state time and time again how people exploring the Sierra Madre died because they got greedy.
-We also find multiple examples of the above, scattered around.
-Elijah even had to connect all the collars together to force people to NOT kill each other.
-Then you find a mountain of gold that normally will get you killed if you get greedy and try to take all of it with you (the hard part is letting go).

Nah, it's just a coincidence.

And time and again, ever since the dawn of fictional story-telling, there have been instances where the main characters go against implied warnings of certain death and/or overcome seemingly insurmountable odds while still managing to pull things off they shouldn't be able to do.

To draw a parallel in the movie industry, think about what the Goonies have been like if the kids just stopped looking for One-eyed Willy's treasure when they found Chester Copperpot's body under the rock, and just said, "Well, fuck it... there's no point in trying now! This guy was a pro, and he wound up dead... there's no we'll live to pull this off..."

It's so absurd to think that developers might NOT be able to think of everything? Especially when they have tight deadlines to work with?

No, it's certainly not absurd to think they don't catch everything-- even under ideal timeframe circumstances... but at the same time, it's also not absurd to think they might have purposely left it in as a reward for people who took the time to figure out how to do it legitimately, or really invested heavily in a certain type of character.

Remember, this is supposed to be an RPG, so special rewards for creative use of specific skillsets should be expected (plus Obsidian is pretty much the only proven developer that dares to do stuff like this).

Of course, it's also a viable possibility that they just plain didn't give a shit one way or the other if you got the gold bars out since money is so ridiculously easy to come by in the game anyway...

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Why shouldn't that object be there? It's not like they just plopped some random object down without building everything else around it like it's supposed to be there and then just forgot to delete it later... there's even a similar object on the other side of the vault entrance.

It shouldn't be there because it allows the player to stay hidden from Elijah, obviously.

So, your whole argument revolves around "It lets the player do something I think they shouldn't be able to do, therefore it shouldn't be there".

My argument by this point is pretty clear and it's certainly not that.

To draw a parallel in the movie industry, think about what the Goonies have been like if the kids just stopped looking for One-eyed Willy's treasure when they found Chester Copperpot's body under the rock, and just said, "Well, fuck it... there's no point in trying now! This guy was a pro, and he wound up dead... there's no we'll live to pull this off...

Been a long time since I saw The Goonies but I don't remember "don't try things that are out of your league" being a constant theme in the movie.

 

[Dienan]

This thread is the biggest theread to go MASS OT on NMA. Please do stop this pointless argument about player preference and choices and focus on the ORIGINAL TOPIC

 

[The Sixth Ranger]

Yes, can we resume our conversation about a crotchety old man and his attempts to escape a deathtrap before his air supply evaporates?

 

[NatureDruid]

It's like I said before, people that cheat have to use some kind of twisted logic to make sense of their methods.

Hey, speedrunners for the original FO titles used resources provided by the game, they never used third party programs to break the code or anything, so that means they weren't using exploits, right? WRONG! Speedruns in almost any game regularly use exploits. Some far lesser exploits than others, like FO speedrunners using combat engine loopholes to circumvent random encounters by holding down A, as opposed to combining a collision detection bug and respawn glitch allowing players to pass through a barrier by skipping 25% of a game. Differing degrees of abusiveness, but exploits nonetheless. At least they're honest and they understand that what they're doing is exploitative. They say it all the time. "What I'm doing is exploiting the..."

Exploiting? Yes. Cheating? No. Still stupid if you want to do an immersive playthrough though.

 

[NatureDruid]

It's like I said before, people that cheat have to use some kind of twisted logic to make sense of their methods.

Hey, speedrunners for the original FO titles used resources provided by the game, they never used third party programs to break the code or anything, so that means they weren't using exploits, right? WRONG! Speedruns in almost any game regularly use exploits. Some far lesser exploits than others, like FO speedrunners using combat engine loopholes to circumvent random encounters by holding down A, as opposed to combining a collision detection bug and respawn glitch allowing players to pass through a barrier by skipping 25% of a game. Differing degrees of abusiveness, but exploits nonetheless. At least they're honest and they understand that what they're doing is exploitative. They say it all the time. "What I'm doing is exploiting the..."

Exploiting? Yes. Cheating? No. Still stupid if you want to do an immersive playthrough though.

 

[NatureDruid]

It's like I said before, people that cheat have to use some kind of twisted logic to make sense of their methods.

Hey, speedrunners for the original FO titles used resources provided by the game, they never used third party programs to break the code or anything, so that means they weren't using exploits, right? WRONG! Speedruns in almost any game regularly use exploits. Some far lesser exploits than others, like FO speedrunners using combat engine loopholes to circumvent random encounters by holding down A, as opposed to combining a collision detection bug and respawn glitch allowing players to pass through a barrier by skipping 25% of a game. Differing degrees of abusiveness, but exploits nonetheless. At least they're honest and they understand that what they're doing is exploitative. They say it all the time. "What I'm doing is exploiting the..."

Exploiting? Yes. Cheating? No. Still stupid if you want to do an immersive playthrough though.

 

[NatureDruid]

It's like I said before, people that cheat have to use some kind of twisted logic to make sense of their methods.

Hey, speedrunners for the original FO titles used resources provided by the game, they never used third party programs to break the code or anything, so that means they weren't using exploits, right? WRONG! Speedruns in almost any game regularly use exploits. Some far lesser exploits than others, like FO speedrunners using combat engine loopholes to circumvent random encounters by holding down A, as opposed to combining a collision detection bug and respawn glitch allowing players to pass through a barrier by skipping 25% of a game. Differing degrees of abusiveness, but exploits nonetheless. At least they're honest and they understand that what they're doing is exploitative. They say it all the time. "What I'm doing is exploiting the..."

Exploiting? Yes. Cheating? No. Still stupid if you want to do an immersive playthrough though.