Could Elijah escape?

sigma1932 said:
SnapSlav said:
All the methods to escape with all of the gold were exploits and glitches, so just because it's "possible" (just like turning off collision in the console) doesn't mean it's intended.
Click to expand...
Wait... so using a little bit of stealth and simply walking out (i.e. no stealthboys or Turbo/GRX Implant) through legitimately accessible/unobstructed paths is a glitch/exploit?

Huh... learn somethin' new every day...
Click to expand...
There's nothing legitimate about achieving an end that was CLEARLY intended to be impossible, no matter how little you used mods, console, or other means widely associated with "cheating". If you use the pathing to scale the sheer wall on the South side of Primm Pass to get free pot shots off at the Blind Deathclaw there without it being able to reach you, it doesn't matter that the game allowed you to do it. That's an exploit, because it wasn't intended. It doesn't even matter that late-game you could one-shot the Blind Deathclaw because you've grown that powerful, which IS perfectly legitimate (if ridiculous). The methods you had USED were not legitimate. Poor engine limitations leading to poor oversight of player actions leading to exploitation. Cheating. It's fucking basic if you just think about it and stop trying to weasel out excuses. You don't have to stretch ideas to come to this conclusion. Beating the original Command and Conquer by walling off your bases with sand bags is using nothing outside of the game programming to prevent the AI from ever attacking you, yet it's manipulating loopholes in the AI's prgrammer. Duh, of course it's cheating.

Likewise, getting all Gold Bars out of the Sierra Madre is, no matter what you do, cheating, because it wasn't intended. The Gold Bars were NEVER meant to be recoverable. They were simply there to tempt the player into carrying them to their doom and ultimately realize that they had to give them up in order to survive. You don't have to wriggle some kind of twisted logic to come to the natural destination of "I cheated to get this". Being able to manipulate the scripting of Elijah's detection and the sequence with which he deactivates and activates the force fields is clearly an exploit. It was never intended for players to be able to walk (at a snail's pace) to the force fields, have them deactivate just as they arrive, and walk through before they reactivate, leaving them with ample time to reach the nearby elevator while being weighed down with THOUSANDS OF POUNDS of Gold. That was blatant abuse of sloppy engine design to achieve and end that was INTENDED to be impossible. Of course it was cheating.
 
It wasn't cheating. You don't need to use console/cheats/engine bugs and anything like that.
You can just do it, using perks and their effects... and wait!
Developers makes them (perks) to actually have some use for them...

It is like saying, that using "gifted" in Fo1/2 is cheating because it's damn profitable.

You should blame developers for oversight, not players for doing something normal. There is inscription on the wall in Sierra Madre saying that you can't take all gold? Or game warning you that doing it is impossible?
 
I simply consider it missing the point of the DLC.

Anyways, I don't think Elijah is going anywhere. The elevator is stuck up the shaft, he's locked in the bunker, and he's an elderly man addicted to Mentats with arthritis and a whole lot of issues.

He's stuck there.
 
You can escape with all of the gold and locking Elias In the Vault. I've done it. It was hard and required a bit of luck, but I've done it. All you need a stealth boy (very, very hard to find) and a bit of patience. Not sure it can be done without the stealth boy though :/

The problem I've found with the gold is that it's actually very hard to spend. Not many vendors can handle all that money. It's bloody heavy too, especially with the J.E Sawyer mod.
 
It's stated that there's only 1% chance for the item to spawn in one of Dean's stashes. Just because you didn't find one (bad luck) and couldn't sneak out of the vault undetected (bad timing, lack of patience and low sneak skill. Silent running maybe?) doesn't meen sucsessfuly doing it in a logical sense it using an exploit thus cheating..
 
Languorous_Maiar said:
You should blame developers for oversight, not players for doing something normal. There is inscription on the wall in Sierra Madre saying that you can't take all gold? Or game warning you that doing it is impossible?
Click to expand...

It's certainly an oversight (minus the GRX exploit, since it was released in a later DLC, come on) because "learning to let go" it's the leit motif of Dead Money. Unless you think that what's hammered into you through the whole thing is just a coincidence.

Certainly not cheating, though, I'd call it an unintended exploit. If this is cheating... :roll:
 
For a player who gets the ultimate/GOTY edition with all DLC included and loaded into the base game at the begining along with DLC perks, getting Implant GRX even before going to Sierra Madre and using it as a 'smart move' is an exploit? It's no such a thing. The devs knew and if they wanned they could just make the pip boy block/not coming up when the objective to defeat Elijah/sneak out is given. Since you can't hotkey Implant GRX, there's no way to activate it without bringing up the pip boy. A player thinking smart and using any means of survival available to him is not an exploit, just immersive thinking. Just my two cents.. :D
 
Dienan said:
For a player who gets the ultimate/GOTY edition with all DLC included and loaded into the base game at the begining along with DLC perks, getting Implant GRX even before going to Sierra Madre and using it as a 'smart move' is an exploit?
Click to expand...

Yes. People make mistakes and Old World Blues was released 7 months after Dead Money. I'd say it's very unlikely that they realized that the GRX Implant could be used as an exploit for that sequence.

It's no such a thing. The devs knew and if they wanned they could just make the pip boy block/not coming up when the objective to defeat Elijah/sneak out is given. Since you can't hotkey Implant GRX, there's no way to activate it without bringing up the pip boy.
Click to expand...

It's an incredibly stupid workaround. Oh, sure. Locking out the Pip-Boy doesn't allow you to use the GRX Implant, but also doesn't allow you to use all the other "not-exploity" items, like...I don't know...healing items?

A player thinking smart and using any means of survival available to him is not an exploit, just immersive thinking. Just my two cents.. :D
Click to expand...

Solving a problem in a creative way is one thing. Breaking a sequence thanks to an oversight is another.
 
It's like I said before, people that cheat have to use some kind of twisted logic to make sense of their methods.

Hey, speedrunners for the original FO titles used resources provided by the game, they never used third party programs to break the code or anything, so that means they weren't using exploits, right? WRONG! Speedruns in almost any game regularly use exploits. Some far lesser exploits than others, like FO speedrunners using combat engine loopholes to circumvent random encounters by holding down A, as opposed to combining a collision detection bug and respawn glitch allowing players to pass through a barrier by skipping 25% of a game. Differing degrees of abusiveness, but exploits nonetheless. At least they're honest and they understand that what they're doing is exploitative. They say it all the time. "What I'm doing is exploiting the..."
 
Once again, twisting logic. You're "confusing" academic cheating with game cheating. When I replay FO2, knowing just about every dialog path and how my actions will impact my journey is NOT cheating. I "know the answers", but this isn't cheating, because I "took this test already". However, using the mentioned "hold down A" method to avoid every random encounter is, because those encounters were intended to have a consequence that I just used an exploit to ignore entirely. Players in another game using a "quick swap" bug to apply a status effect to a weapon that was never intended to be able to use it, then combine the weapon's ability to create a literal "area of death" around them and kill other players effortlessly are using methods that the game provides, but were NEVER INTENDED to be used that way. This is not a hard concept to grasp...
 
It isn't "exploiting an oversight".
How player can exploit, without even knowing it?
SnapSlav wrote about speedruns and using some glitches and tricks... but they're doing it intesionally.
Most players who taken gold from Sierra Madre, just grabbed it and sneaked out... without even knowing that taking gold should be impossible.
 
I doubt that most of them did, but it's surely happened.

When I took the gold out I did it as a sort of self-imposed challenge, since I already had Implant GRX so just getting out of the vault would be trivial. It was a lot of fun and took a few tries; I felt like I'd actually achieved something at the end. I don't see what the problem is with it, tbh. dead Money already breaks the game's economy by giving you vast piles of Pre-War Money and casino chips as part of normal gameplay; a few extra grand's worth of gold doesn't make that much difference.
 
Languorous_Maiar said:
It isn't "exploiting an oversight".
How player can exploit, without even knowing it?
SnapSlav wrote about speedruns and using some glitches and tricks... but they're doing it intesionally.
Most players who taken gold from Sierra Madre, just grabbed it and sneaked out... without even knowing that taking gold should be impossible.
Click to expand...

I don't know how many people just tried it and succesed on their first try.

But, wether is intentional or not, leaving with the gold is "exploiting an oversight" nonetheless, since you weren't supposed to be able to do that. Intention has nothing to do with it in this case. Or do you prefer to say "unknowingly taking advantage of an oversight"?

But in the end this is all semantic. The point is that even though you can manage to leave with all the gold you weren't supposed to be able to do it.

2house2fly said:
I don't see what the problem is with it, tbh.
Click to expand...

Well, it kind of defeats the message of the DLC...
 
True, but you still have your companions and Elijah as object lessons n the importance of letting go. Besides, it adds another, unintentional lesson: nobody who is rich came by their wealth legitimately.
 
Languorous_Maiar said:
It isn't "exploiting an oversight".
How player can exploit, without even knowing it?
Click to expand...
Attitudes like that suggest that play testers don't find glitches and bugs for game companies, because they just happened upon them. No, that's not how it works. Exploiting something unintentionally doesn't make it a non-exploit, it just means you didn't do it purposefully. EVERY exploit was found unintentionally, and through the magic of the information age, the knowledge was passed down and used with intent by those who hadn't "happened upon" the exploits themselves. Don't be facetious.
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Languorous_Maiar said:
SnapSlav, as Stanislao pointed out, how this could be cheating?
Click to expand...

Snapslav is complaining about exploits and cheating, and that's definitively exploiting an oversight.
Click to expand...
Ok, then explain what this mysterious "oversight" is.

All I'm seeing is someone using an environment object to break line of sight while sneaking (an extremely common practice), and then simply walking out unobstructed, plain and simple.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top