Criminals with Jobs

[Jebus]

So what do you think about these:

the Visa card scandal in Antwerp?

I agree. That was embarassing. Well, to Antwerp anyway. But hey, consider me naïve, but I really don't think it's all that big a deal. Somebody buying glasses with the city's money isn't all that corrupt as for example the Bush administration assinging the job of rebuilding Irak to a company that is owned (or was run, I'm not too sure) by the vice-president.

The murdering of Cools?

Aye, that be some mess too. But it isn't half as bad as what's happening in Russia right now. People who want to run for president there are either in jail or 'dissapearing'... And anyway, the murder of Cools is a bit old too, now.

Even the Dutroux affair most certainly shows political ambiguities

.

Ah yes, the old conspiracy theory. Keep in mind though, that nothing at all has been proven about that... Anyway, the trail starts soon, so then I guess we will all know what's the deal with this entire story about politicians being involved... I, and most of the Belgians I think, personally believe that's a bit far-fetched.

Pink ballet anyone (pedophile scandals involving our royal family)?

I think it has long since been established that the entire story of King Albert II (or what it prince Laurent? Don't really remember) was nothing but bullsh*t. And, the pink ballets were about policemen. And yes, those are corrupt. Some of them, anyway... (sorry dad! )

Shit, Jebus, you should read a newspaper now and then. Watch the news. Surf the internet.

I do, I do. Although I have to admit: it has somewhat lessened since I started to go to the univ. I don't have a TV in my place here, and I don't really have time to read newspapers... I often take a peek at vrtnieuws.net though, but unfortunately that information is usually quite shallow...

Hell, maybe I'm the one who should ask YOU how old YOU are.

I'm 18

Even our neighbouring countries know that Belgium is no good and corrupt to the bone.

Are there any people from neighbouring countries around here? And if so, do people abroad really feel that way about Belgium?

Haemers anyone? The rebel who hanged himself... ON A FREAKING RADIATOR HALF A METER ABOVE THE GROUND? WITHOUT HAVING ANY SHOELACES IN HIS CELL WHERE HE WAS CONSTANTLY BEING WATCHED AND DRUGGED? The Nijvel gang? Helloooo? Anyone there? Helloooo?

Dude, that stuff is REALLY old! Dates from back in the eighties...

Let me guess: you a socialist, Jebus?

Got me there...

I'm gonna be 28 in a couple of days,

Why you old bastard! :p (j/k)

but you're absolutely right: I'm bitter and extremely disappointed in Belgium, in life, in the world and... in YOU!

Makes me sad...

If anything, we should stick together,

Word! Especially since we're the only two active Belgians on this board... (And both living in the same city, too!)


Anyway: time for the closing statement.

Of course, there is corruption in Belgium. As there is anywhere. But don't get your perspectives mixed up. Corruption here in Belgium isn't half as bad as in most (if not 99%) of the other countries in the world... Even in Europe: just think of Berlusconi and his immunity-scam; Blair lying to his people; etc. etc.

So, you should be happy to live in Belgium! Shed the bitterness my friend, and enjoy the positive things Belgium has to offer! Go grab a beer! Eat some chocolate! 'Foefel' a bit!

 

[Wooz]

Blade Runner wrote:

You forgot to mention 'Belgian'.

Toresica wrote:

You didn't mention Canadian.

Ekhem.

All of them.

ALL of the governments throughout history. After all, they only are the material representation of the original government idea. Which IMO is a pretty damn stupid idea, but this has been debated on another thread.

Blade Runner wrote:

That's easy talking, 'humans, with all the defects entitled to the species'. Huh! Politicians are villains, all of them, even the ones that say the right things and accept bribes when you turn your back. They are the scum of this earth and should be dragged to the guillotine. Vive la révolution!

*slaps Blade Runner*

I'm the anarchist around here!

And by the way, you're right.

 

[alec]

I think it has long since been established that the entire story of King Albert II (or what it prince Laurent? Don't really remember) was nothing but bullsh*t. And, the pink ballets were about policemen. And yes, those are corrupt. Some of them, anyway... (sorry dad! )

It's late now, but I'll dig up some pictures for you if I can find them anywhere. Humo did a really good report on it a few years ago. It's not bullshit at all, Jebus. It's the sad, sad truth.

Dude, that stuff is REALLY old! Dates from back in the eighties...

The nineties, my friend, the nineties. And that is not that old. (What's with the old-thing anyway? Scandals remain scandals. Hey, do you know that thing that happened at Auschwitz and Treblinka and stuff? Or wait, that's too old, huh? )

Blade Runner wrote:

That's easy talking, 'humans, with all the defects entitled to the species'. Huh! Politicians are villains, all of them, even the ones that say the right things and accept bribes when you turn your back. They are the scum of this earth and should be dragged to the guillotine. Vive la révolution!

*slaps Blade Runner*

I'm the anarchist around here!

And by the way, you're right.

*slaps Wooz69*

You anarchist you!

I love you... friend.

 

[El*Diablo]

Well we should start a revolution and take down the power.

 

[Jebus]

I think it has long since been established that the entire story of King Albert II (or what it prince Laurent? Don't really remember) was nothing but bullsh*t. And, the pink ballets were about policemen. And yes, those are corrupt. Some of them, anyway... (sorry dad! )

It's late now, but I'll dig up some pictures for you if I can find them anywhere. Humo did a really good report on it a few years ago. It's not bullshit at all, Jebus. It's the sad, sad truth.

You know, I like Humo. And I think I've read that article too. It's some time ago now though, so I can't really remember it all that well anymore.
But you really have to remeber one thing: HUMO isn't Knack. I mean, Humo is funny, witty and stuff, but it isn't really all that well known for it's investigative journalism. That reminds me of that interview with 'Witness X' from the Dutroux case, a while ago. They didn't even bother to check if what her lawyer said was true. I mean sure, they might have been, but they just published the foto's and stuff the lawyer gave them without ever checking if they were true. I mean, I only write for the freakin' students magazine of the University of Gent, but at least I know they broke the first rule of journalism there...

Dude, that stuff is REALLY old! Dates from back in the eighties...

The nineties, my friend, the nineties. And that is not that old. (What's with the old-thing anyway? Scandals remain scandals. Hey, do you know that thing that happened at Auschwitz and Treblinka and stuff? Or wait, that's too old, huh? )

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean that they had to be forgotten because the were old, I just meant they didn't apply anymore. I mean, we have a completely other goverment now. And plus, something I didn't think of before: if there was indeed any corruptness in this case, it would mostly have to come from the police. I don't really see Martens heading into that guy's cell to hang him...

 

[alec]

Dude, that stuff is REALLY old! Dates from back in the eighties...

The nineties, my friend, the nineties. And that is not that old. (What's with the old-thing anyway? Scandals remain scandals. Hey, do you know that thing that happened at Auschwitz and Treblinka and stuff? Or wait, that's too old, huh? )

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean that they had to be forgotten because the were old, I just meant they didn't apply anymore. I mean, we have a completely other goverment now. And plus, something I didn't think of before: if there was indeed any corruptness in this case, it would mostly have to come from the police. I don't really see Martens heading into that guy's cell to hang him...

Look Jebus, if you want to play the smart ass around here, an 18-year-old smart ass I might add, you are going to have to inform yourself a whole lot better. If you are studying History (Modern Times, eh? right ), then you my friend are casting a slur on the reputation of the University of Gent.
'Why?' you ask.
Because Patrick Haemers supposedly committed suicide in May 1993 and every History student, especially those who actually go to the Modern Times seminars, should know that not Martens, but Jean-Luc Dehaene was prime minister at that time.
Jezus, Jebus, if you write articles for the students' magazine of the University of Gent, I really hope they are only letting you report on stuff like acne and pubic hair.

And I'm referring to Nihoul when talking about the Dutroux affair. Everyone knows that he had protection from "above." Witness X was only in it for the money, that I know just as well as you do.

Oh, and the Pink Ballets do not involve Albert or prince Laurent, you dumb ass, it concerns Leopold II. You should read a book about that king if you ever get the chance. He did lots of nice things in Congo as well, like cutting of hands and limbs and raping young women.

It's not wise to argue with me on these things since I wrote several articles about it for newspapers and, yes, even for the fucking Knack. Feeling stupid already, Jebus?

And for your information: the name is Blade Runner. Say it with me: "Blade Runner." You remember that name, boy, 'cause you'll be screaming it later.

And the award goes to... JEBUS!

 

[Murdoch]

Hmm, Belgian history is as useless to me as a tampon, but I think an pwnage icon is in order? Or maybe fire extinguisher?

 

[Jebus]

Alright bucko,


1. Modern Times is from 1789-1945

2. I don't have Present Times yet, that is only in 2nd Candidature, but that doens't matter.

3. In 1993, I was fuckin' eight years old. So I'm sorry if I don't know if the Nijvel giant comitted suicide then, but the Nijvel-hold-ups DID occur in the eighties. I remember my mom telling me she was afraid to go to the store while being pregnant with me.

4. Nihould getting protection from above? It's not because there isn't any evidence against him that politicians necessairily have to get involved. That just means the police screwed up (again).

5. If it's really about Leopold II, then that is REALLY REALLY REALLY FUCKING OLD. About a hundred years old, actually. And IIRC correclty, the pink ballets-article in Humo talked about more 'recent' events. (Please note the IIRC) And I know everything there is to know about Leopold II. Well, exept for lame-ass gossip about his sexual preferences, that is.

6. Go smoke a fucking cigarette.

 

[alec]

Go play with your Jagged Alliance, dude.
You're pwned and you know it.

 

[Jebus]

Just how did I got pwnd now? Because I don't read your fucking gossip articles about a hundred-years-dead kings? Or because I didn't know when some fucking criminal commited suicide?

And cool down man, or you'll be running from my blade

 

[Jebus]

And:

Rumours about the sex parties, the so-called “Pink Ballets” (les Ballets Roses), have been rampant in Belgium for about two decades. The names of prominent politicians and even the present Belgian King, Albert II (who succeeded his brother in 1993 and used to have a reputation for being a playboy), had been mentioned in this connection, but nobody had been able to prove anything. Rumours about the “Pink Ballets” persisted, but many journalists denounced them as being the Belgian political equivalent of the Loch Ness monster. Though some claim to have seen its shadow, serious people do not believe it exists.

Oh yeah. Eat my dirt, motherfucker.

Go write some articles about acne and pubic hair for Knack.

 

[alec]

Alexandra Cohen, A Belgian politician

First of all: there is no Belgian politician with the name of Alexandra Cohen. (Pwned again dumbass!)

Secondly: the Belgian politician you are quoting is named Alexandra Colen! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHO ALEXANDRA COLEN IS, YOU FUCKTARD!

Alexandra Colen is Member of Parliament for "het Vlaams Blok"! Yeah, that's right, you complete and utter moron, "het Vlaams blok", that nazi-party that is slowly but surely taking over control in this country! You are quoting A FASCIST, YOU DIPSHIT! For that alone, I REFUSE to talk with you ever again! Actually, if I was a moderator on these forums I would BAN your teenage ass for doing that!
Now get this, Jebus, and don't forget it, because you have just succeeded in pissing me off, you so-called socialist, you're just a nazi pig:

Now you are so PWNED I'd be ashamed to visit these forums ever again if I were you! And I'm not fucking kidding. How you even dare to quote that fascist bitch is beyond my comprehension!

And this ends my discussion with you! First, try to grow up, get some common sense into your 18-year-old brain and if you studied your lessons properly, try again!


And if you even come close to me, I'll get my Turkish friends, tell them what kind of an ultra-right-winged bitch you are and let them assrape you in front of your professors!
CASE CLOSED

 

[Jebus]

Dude... *sigh*

1. People make typ0's. Get over it.

2. I know who she is. She may be a neo-nazi, but I only used that quote to show that

a) I wasn't mistaken on that article in Humo
b) Everybody (even stupid neo-nazi's) knows those pink-ballets rumors are bullshit.

Now if you would excuse me, I have to engage in some procreational activities. I will glady continue to kick your ass tomorrow. You may out-flame me, but you don't out-argument me. Good night.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and just because I couldn't resist: may I point out that about the only political party expressing the same ideas as you about the state of the government in Belgium IS the Flemish Block. Good night.

 

[alec]

People make typ0's. Get over it.

You call that a typo? Cohen is a JEWISH name.

Damn, kid, give me your address. Please, PM it to me and we'll see how you talk when some Blockbusters come slamming your nuts through your miserable teenage skull!

And arguments, you want arguments? PM me and I'll give you a shitload of books, but not before I kick your sorry ass to kingdom come!

And for your information, I'm with the PVDA. That party knows just how wrong things are in Belgium!

 

[Silencer]

You are quoting A FASCIST

Nothin' wrong with quoting a fascist, BR. I do It all the time quoting Hitler "I didn't mean any harm". Oh, wait, that wasn't Hitler

 

[alec]

Recourse to prostitutes, as we know, is a royal tradition. Leopold II, the nephew of Queen Victoria, was the client of an English prostitution ring specialising in very young girls. Later he met Caroline, a 16-year-old prostitute, whom he married under the name Baroness Vaughan [Baroness Vaughan, Presque Reine, Le Cri, 1998; A. Hochschild, King Leopold's Ghost, p. 221-224.].

On the subject of Leopold III, the Chief of German Security in Belgium during the war, Canaris, stated during questioning that he had served the King by undertaking certain missions of a private character to Knokke and Berchtersgaden; these missions were what we now call an "escort service", that is procuring prostitutes [E. Raskin, Princesse Lilian, éditions Luc Pire, 1999, p. 109; Le Peuple e Le Monde du Travail 25/4/49].

It is not the private aspect of this sort of conduct that should attract our attention, but its social and political repercussions. The statute of the King has two consequences. In order to conserve his moral authority, these misdoings must be kept hidden, which leads to the development of a double language and a double face; moreover - and this is much more serious - the democratic institutions are regularly diverted to cover up royal misdoings and to enforce the law of silence. Thus, for example, in 1949 King Leopold's secretary informed the Minister of Justice of the King's desire to prevent the divulgation of those parts of the Canaris file regarding the private life of the King and the Royal Family during the Occupation [Archives Générales du Royaume, Mémoires inédites of Jacques Pirenne, p. 535]. Fifty years later - despite the abdication of Leopold III - it is still not possible to consult these sections, while the files of the period have never been subject to such censure [E. Raskin, Princesse Lilian, éditions Luc Pire, 1999, p. 108].

 

[alec]

King Leopold II of Belgium commissioned the explorer Henry Stanley to secure agreements from the tribes who inhabited the Kongo Basin in Africa. Stanley did so through a combination of promises, threats and trickery. One of his methods when meeting a new chief, was to attach a buzzer to his hand which was linked to a battery. When the chief shook hands with Stanley he got a mild electric shock. This device convinced the chiefs that Stanley had superhuman powers. The agreements allowed the Belgians into the Congo to take its rich natural resources.
At the Berlin Conference of 1884, the European powers met to carve up Africa. Leopold called Africa "that magnificent African cake." From this beginning, the Kongo Basin became the Congo Free State, 900,000 square miles, in essence the private estate of Leopold.

http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/readers_guides/hochschild_king_leo.shtml

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/libertaire/roi.htm

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/libertaire/archive/2000/226-mar/matin.htm

And if you want to know where the term "ballets roses" originated from, this site might just give you a hint. Originally, it wasn't used for gay parties, but for the orgies the king had with way too young girls. It doesn't mention it on the site, but I have the term right here in a French book from 1922, titled 'Les monstruosités du Royaume Belgique", written by some abbé Demarais.

http://tallulahs.com/cleo.html

 

[Silencer]

Henry Stanley

You mean : Henry Morton Stanley (as he is referred to in history books)

Is that supposed to convince me that Leopold was evil? If those Africans were so un-freaking-believably credulous, they just got their do.

 

[Jebus]

I thought we already agreed Leopold II is ancient? And that I am sufficiently informed of his exploits?

Anyway, check your PM. My adress is there.

 

[alec]

Henry Stanley

You mean : Henry Morton Stanley (as he is referred to in history books)

Is that supposed to convince me that Leopold was evil? If those Africans were so un-freaking-believably credulous, they just got their do.

No, but this should give you an idea what kind of a monster he was:

1. Between 1880 and 1920, the population of the Congo was slashed in half: some ten million people were victims of murder, starvation, exhaustion, exposure, disease and a plummeting birth rate. Why do you think this massive carnage has remained virtually unknown in the United States and Europe?

2. Hochschild writes of Joseph Conrad that he “was so horrified by the greed and brutality among white men he saw in the Congo that his view of human nature was permanently changed.” Judging from Hochschild’s account and from Heart of Darkness, in whatway was Conrad’s view changed? How is this true of other individuals about whom Hochschild writes? In what way has this book affected your view of human nature?

3. The death toll in King Leopold’s Congo was on a scale comparable to the Holocaust and Stalin’s purges. Can Leopold II be viewed as a precursor to the masterminds behind the Nazi death camps and the Gulag? Did these three and other twentiethcentury mass killings arise from similar psychological, social, political, economic, and cultural sources?

4. Those who plundered the Congo and other parts of Africa (and Asia) did so in the name of progress, civilization, and Christianity. Was this hypocritical and if so, how? What justifications for colonial imperialism and exploitation have been put forward over the past five centuries?

5. Morel, Sheppard, Williams, Casement, and others boldly spoke out against the Congo atrocities, often at great danger to themselves. Many others rationalized those same atrocities or said nothing. How do you account for Leopold’s, Stanley’s, and others’ murderous rapaciousness, on the one hand, and Morel’s, Casement’s, and others’ outrage and committed activism, on the other?

6. The European conquest and plunder of the Congo and the rest of Africa was brutal, but so was the European settlement of North America and, long before that, the conquest of most of Europe by the Romans. Hasn’t history always proceeded in this way?

7. Hochschild begins his book with what he calls Edmund Morel’s “flash of moral recognition” on the Antwerp docks. What other flashes of moral recognition does Hochschild identify, and what were their consequences? In what ways may Hochschild’s book itself be seen as a flash of moral recognition? What more recent flashes of moral recognition and indignation can you identify?

8. Hochschild quotes the Swedish missionary, C. N. Börrisson: “It is strange that people who claim to be civilized think they can treat their fellow man — even though he is of a different color — any which way.” How may we explain the disregard of “civilized” individuals and groups for the humanity and life of others because of skin color, nationality, religion, ethnic background, or other factors? Why do this disregard and resulting cruelties persist?

9. What are the similarities between the colonial and imperial aspirations of pre- and early twentieth-century nations and the corporate and market aspirations of today’s multinational companies? Whether rapacious or beneficent, most actors in the Congo, and in Africa at large, seem to have been motivated principally by profit. In what ways do business objectives continue to shape the policies and actions of national governments and international organizations?

10. Hochschild writes that Leopold “found a number of tools at his disposal that had not been available to empire builders of earlier times.” What new technologies and technological advances contributed to Leopold’s exploitation of the Congo? What impact have these tools had on both the advancement and degradation of colonial or subject peoples?

11. The “burgeoning hierarchy of imperial rule” in the Congo Free State was, Hochschild writes, reflected in “the plethora of medals” and attendant grades and ranks. What were the reasons for this extensive hierarchy and for the bureaucracy it reflected and maintained? Are there any contemporary parallels? Of what historical examples can we say that the more heinous the political or governmental crimes, the larger and more frequently rewarded the bureaucracy?

12. How does Hochschild answer his own question, “What made it possible for the functionaries in the Congo to so blithely watch the chicotte in action and . . . to deal out pain and death in other ways as well”? How would you answer this question, in regard to Leopold’s Congo and to other officially sanctioned atrocities?

13. Hochschild quotes Roger Casement as insisting to Edmund Morel, “I do not agree with you that England and America are the two great humanitarian powers. . . . [They are] materialistic first and humanitarian only a century after.” What evidence supports or refutes Casement’s judgment? Would Casement be justified in making the same statement today?

14. After stating that several other mass murders “went largely unnoticed,” Hochschild asks, “why, in England and the United States, was there such a storm of righteous protest about the Congo?” Do you find his explanation sufficient? Why do some atrocities (the mass murders in Rwanda, for example) prompt little response from the United States and other western nations, while others (the "ethnic cleansing" of Kosovo, for example) prompt military action against the perpetrators?

Come on, people, do you really think I'm making all of this up? These things are very well documented and - sadly enough - they are true. I really can't get it that anyone would back up for a royal pig like this.