Damaged Armor?

Mad Max beyond Junk City

First time out of the vault
Whats your guys' opinion of having armor take damage and eventually need repaired to add to realizim?

you could use your own repair skill and gain xp for it

or take it to a shop and spend some currency on it


of course the armor wouldnt ever become fully broken or what not, just maybe get reduced to 2/3 of its maximum protection and what not


like say for example, power armor can withstand 20 criticals, when it hits 20 it becomes broken, or damaged
 
Meh, realism is fine but also can reach a point where it becomes annoying.

Broken armor reaches that point I think.
 
Mad Max, this forum has a Search function, it can come in handy to see if an idea has been brought up before. You can annoy members here by posting redundent threads.

There have been at least two threads which have brought up this topic before, Salvage/Wear and Tear and Armour Damage.

Overall, all the topics have proven that people have not really taken to the idea. I know it annoyed me in Morrowind, having to constantly repair my weapons and armor, or paying a NPC to do it. Seemed like a waste of time, having to trek back to a town just for that.
 
It hardly adds anything to the many games where it's implemented. Only half decent use of it was in the diablo 2 expansion pack, where you had "ethereal" items, that were a little more powerful than the other but couldn't be repaired... and i don't think that could fit fallout in any way, but still, if it was actually used for something other than to annoy and consume your characters resources, it could be good, but I like the idea of upgrading/crafting items much more than simple repairing.
 
i dunno. in real life armor isn't like super indestructible. and it wasn't such a pain in morrowind. just lug a bunch of repair tools with you. some may say it adds a strategical element to inventory management.
 
Would it be more realistic? Of course.

Would it be annoying as all get-out? Of course.

My PnP campaign does not have weapons or armor get damaged unless someone fudges a critical failure or gets nailed with a really good critical hit. Then they hand it to repair-gigalo and it's back to working order. Usually. ;)
 
When I first started FO, the armor repair thing was one of the things I worried about (with my Diablo background). So I used to watch my AC like a hawk, constantly afraid that my neatest new armor would get riddled with bullets or clawed to pieces by a deathclaw or something. Once I figured out I didn't have to worry about that particular game mechanic, I was greatly relieved.

Still, I don't think that the game would have suffered if armor damage had been included.

Jay
 
I tend to feel people tend to be too dogmatical when they don't like something.

Allright, so some people would prefer not to have too much mircomanagement. I like micromanagement in RPGs.
I think there is a world of difference between doing something wrong and doing something right and people ought to pay more attention whether their opinion is based on something fundamental or not.
In this case, I believe people are scarred by Diablo-style durability, and never think about alternatives.

Of course I don't know if Mad Max wasn't thinking about this when he brought it up, but I know it can be done much better.

In Realm of Arkania, weapons would sometimes break. I am not perfectly certain if it was simply an effect of critical failure or if weapons had a hidden durability, but weapons certainly had a different probability to break.
I know two swords that broke relatively often, and one was the only magical one. That was pretty relevant to the gameplay, but I thought it was interesting rather than annoying.
It didn't happen too often, and I didn't have to repair my weapons all the time.
Admittedly my memory is somewhat hazy, but I think repairing weapons and armor could be a good addition.

First of all, it could be done the way BlueNinja mentioned. I think Fallout had the awesome chance to "destroy" a weapon and then it was just gone. That sucks alot more than having to repair it.
But in addition, weapons and armor could have a hidden durability which degenerates very slowly. One proposal on the Bethesda forums was that the repair skill could *automatically* slow this down, so with a good enough repair skill it would only go down in the case of criticals.
Additionally, my idea was that a weapon only shows wear - and is only repairable - when the durability is "low". Until then it wouldn't affect the weapon at all, but at this point it would impair the use, decrease accuracy and increase the chance of a critical failure.
So it wouldn't be a matter of the durability reaching zero, it would be a matter of the weapon becoming unreliable, and the durability would be adjusted to reflect that.

The main complaint about repair is the fear of constantly having to worry and perform a menial action. But this can be easily countered by adjusting durability so it doesn't affect the weapon often and only allowing the repair of a weapon after a certain treshhold.
So if the weapon would only turn "bad" after long use and couldn't be repaired before that, it would be pointless to worry about it all the time. Heck, I hardly worry all the time in Diablo2.
Allright, I do go to the blacksmith almost every time I am in town, but think about the situation:
I run through endless dungeons slaying monsters, and now and then I have to return to town, usually to sell loot, maybe look if the traders offer something of interest.
I tend to consider going to town itseld a menial task in Diablo2, so when I do it I make sure to make the best of it.
It's a totally different situation, since my visits to the town are merely interruptions of an endless fight. Of course I'm having my stuff repaired while I'm at it.
Fallout would be totally different. Some towns (villages) might not even have someone I would entrust with this task. I might swtich weapons without ever reaching the point where I need to worry about it.
On the other hand, I might find weapons in a bad shape, adding an interesting gameplay twist:
So I just found this cool plasma rifle, but can I get it to work? Or do I first have to find someone who can?
I could decide to use an unreliable weapon in a critical situation for it's sheer power, but prefer a more reliable gun most of the time.
Also, it could serve to promote melee combat: My gun's jammed, what to do? I'll just use it as club then. ;)

Now I was a bit rambling, but you'll forgive me for not condensing my post, I found that takes me more time than writing it in the first place and few people truly apppreciate it anyway.

PS:
I kept talking about weapons, but I believe it applies to both weapons and armor. It certainly did in Diablo2. :)
 
In Diablo,Arcanum and Arx Fatalis I hated the repair system because repairing yourself was simply damaging the things.
In Morrowind, the good point is that repairing was improving your skill, so it helped in levelling (is that word correct ?).
Carrying around dozens of hammer is not realistic.
It could *maybe* be a good idea to have repair/maintenance features in Fallout 3, but the chances are high it would be annoying.
 
But this is FALLOUT!

A game where you regularily get hit with rockets ,plasma and mini gun fire. If armour damage was implemented we would be repairing after nearly every fight. Also, what NPCs would do the repairing? The blacksmith??? The whole thing just goes againts the setting.

Pls dont flame me :D
 
Right now I'm working on a design document for a game which is yet to be announced. The setting will be post-nuclear.

I've been thinking about this issue a lot and I think I will implement two kinds of damage systems:
Jamming: what projectile weapons do on a critical failure.
Breaking: what happens to any kind of equipment after a while.

My current concept is this:

If you fire your gun (not sure if this will be the case with energy weapons and flamethrowers as well) and have a low skill, you have a high chance of getting the weapon to jam. The chance depends on the complexity of the weapon (tech level) and your knowledge of the kind of weapon (skill level) but is never exactly 0% or 100%.
To unjam the weapon you need to pass another test, again depending on your weapon skill. If you succeed, you unjam the weapon, if you fail critically, you unjam it by breaking it.

If you use a weapon, get hit, or otherwise "use" your equipment, there is always a small chance that it gets damaged. Once it is damaged beyond a certain threshold, it is labeled broken and requires repair before you can use it again.
Now, I'm not sure if I really want a generic repair skill as there are a lot of specific skills which I have already and which could do the job (if you got a mechanics skill to produce machinery, why have a skill for repairing them?), but basically reparing would be based on some kind of skill and doing it successfully would give you experience, failing would not do anything (I'm considering breaking stuff beyond repair a bit harsh).

Having equipment eventually break is not much of an issue as the abundance of ammunition and the availability of melee weapons already promote the use of alternative weapons and backups as well as a little knowledge in certain "crafting" related skills.
However this is for my game. My game is not Fallout and does not intend to be. In Fallout weapons could blow up, but that was all the durability there was. The repair skill was unbalanced because it rarely ever came into use, but I doubt that adding breakable equipment would fix that, taking another look at the skills and maybe combining or spliting some would be a better approach.

I don't think I would have minded durability much, but it might have done harm to the PNP-esque feel of the game.

Show me a good way to implement it without losing that and I might change my mind.
 
Sounds a bit too restrictive (and a little bit like gambling) imo. You don't really need alot of skill to not jam your weapon when you shoot it.
What you could do is make that "small chance" of degradation (/damage) and/or the amount dependant on the weapon skill.
Jamming could then depend on the weapon's damage.
 
Claw said:
Sounds a bit too restrictive (and a little bit like gambling) imo. You don't really need alot of skill to not jam your weapon when you shoot it.
What you could do is make that "small chance" of degradation (/damage) and/or the amount dependant on the weapon skill.
Jamming could then depend on the weapon's damage.

Weapons too could eventually break, but projectile weapons would tend to jam as well, absolutely independent from that.
However making the likeliness to jam depend on the damagedness is a good idea.

Making it depend on the weapon skill also doesn't make much sense as you need a bad weapons skill to get a critical miss in the first place (well, in most cases anyway).

I suppose I'll go with a default likeliness of 5% or so on a critical miss and then increase that by the weapon's damagedness. Or anything like that.
 
Ashmo said:
Making it depend on the weapon skill also doesn't make much sense as you need a bad weapons skill to get a critical miss in the first place (well, in most cases anyway).
Maybe there is a misunderstanding? I missed the part about criticals causing jamming in the first place, but I don't see a direct link between criticals and what I was referring to in regards to weapon skill.
Ashmo said:
If you use a weapon, get hit, or otherwise "use" your equipment, there is always a small chance that it gets damaged.
Claw said:
What you could do is make that "small chance" of degradation (/damage) and/or the amount dependant on the weapon skill.
Or are you referring to the fact that my proposal would make the jamming dependant on degradation which in turn would be dependant on weapon skill?
Well, that seems to make sense to me, of course I am not really certain how critical failure is determined in either Fallout or your design.

If jamming only occurs as result of a critical failure, that's ok then.
 
The point is that your weapon has a random chance of taking damage whenever you use it (same for every part of your equipment). If you critically fail using a projectile weapon (well, pistols and rifles I guess), the weapon might jam.

Now, certain weapons have a higher tendency to jam (FN FAL would be a perfect example, although it's not going to be in the game; a revolver would be less likely to jam than a magazine fed pistol), and damaged weapons might also be a lot more likely to jam.
I'm not sure about the exact factors which will determine the chance of critical failure and the chance of the weapon jamming, but I could imagine that a damaged guns tend to critically fail more often and that a very picky gun will jam a lot more often than a sturdy one.

Either way it needs a critical failure to jam your weapon and it only needs simple use to damage it (think of it as reducing the durability Diablo-style, just that you won't see the actual percentage of brokenness, but only a vague description and note the effects if the weapon gets damaged too badly).
 
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