Damaged Armor?
- Thread starter Mad Max beyond Junk City
- Start date
Err, I don't know where you got the impression you need to reiterate your explanation of how your system works.
What I had said (in different words) was:
"The chance for weapon degradation ought to depend on your weapon skill rather than be random"
And part of your reply was:
In my last post I asked you to clarify what you mean with "it" and how it doesn't make much sense. It makes sense to me that weapon skill would affect degradation, implying that you have to maintain the weapon and with a higher weapon skill you could keep the weapon in good shape longer.
A critical failure might however cause more damage, i.e. faster degradation.
What I had said (in different words) was:
"The chance for weapon degradation ought to depend on your weapon skill rather than be random"
And part of your reply was:
Ashmo said:
In my last post I asked you to clarify what you mean with "it" and how it doesn't make much sense. It makes sense to me that weapon skill would affect degradation, implying that you have to maintain the weapon and with a higher weapon skill you could keep the weapon in good shape longer.
Is that just a reiteration of your design or are you trying to say that's realistic? It seems to me a constant gradual wear on your gun would be more appropriate actually.Ashmo said:
A critical failure might however cause more damage, i.e. faster degradation.
Yes, this is a point. I agree.Forgotten said:But this is FALLOUT!
A game where you regularily get hit with rockets ,plasma and mini gun fire. If armour damage was implemented we would be repairing after nearly every fight. Also, what NPCs would do the repairing? The blacksmith??? The whole thing just goes againts the setting.
Pls dont flame me
Claw said:
I didn't exactly reiterate it, I specified a part, dumped another and then reiterated it, but who cares anyway.
By "it" I meant "jamming". It's two consecutive rolls, if the first results in a critical miss, the second one determines whether the weapon jams. The durability loss roll is absolutely independent of that mechanism. Well, no need to repeat the whole thing.
As there is no "Luck" stat in the concept, in order not to use the same skill for both rolls (also because there is no skill level cap) I pretty much have to make it luck dependent.
A constant gradual wear would be pointless because the interface is a webbrowser. Thus time is a very relative concept in the game.
I'm not claiming it's realistic, but it's more realistic than having no wear at all.
Ah, well, I need to revamp the stats system again right now (shame on me for not balancing the stats/skills-relation earlier). I suppose I'll give the durability more thought once I'm done with that.
I do, but it was a long post with lots of information and I couldn't see which of it was supposed to clear up my confusion.Ashmo said:
As I had said, I got the impression there was a misunderstanding but I wasn't quite certain whether I misunderstood something you said or the other way around. A reiteration of your system, despite clarifications and modifications, simply wasn't helping.
Also, I feel you ought to point out if something you say is supposed to be a clarification or change on your original design. I could see you added weapon damage/degradation affecting jamming. What did you dump, though?
Ok.. so what you told me was that "Making 'jamming' depend on the weapon skill also doesn't make much sense as you need a bad weapons skill to get a critical miss in the first place"
I perfectly agree, that's why I said it felt like gambling and jamming should depend on weapon damage/durability rather.
I was confused because usually when someone tells me something doesn't make sense I'd assume he'd be referring to something I said.
Wait... so what you mean is, you don't want degradation dependant on weapon skill because critical failure and thus jamming are already skill dependant?
Uhh, I'm confused again. What does time or the interface have to do with that?
What I meant by "constant wear" was that your weapon would be "damaged" every time you use it. You know, not a "chance" but "certainity" of damage.
Claw said:
Yes. It's a balancing question. In an open ended game with no realistic level cap it's a bad idea to have two "bad things that can happen at the same time" depend on the same skill. Also, damage/duration/degradation is not unique for weapons. It can happen with weapons, armor, tools and basically every kind of equipment you can use.
There is no one skill that affects each and having a generic maintenance skill would be awkward. Having the degradation depend on the crafting skills (mechanics, electronics, metallurgy, ...) would be weird too because that'd mean you'd use the same skill for two tests in crafting (same situation I want to prevent by not having it depend on the weapon skills).
The interface is a webbrowser. The difference between a webbrowser game and a game with an offline client is that there is no reliable way to check whether the player is active. You could either have "game time" depend on the time expiring while a player is online or have it be constant by using the server time ("real time" if you wish to call it so).
The former is not reliable (you only know that a player is not active by seeing him idle out, that's quite a messy approach) and the latter is unfair to players who play less often than others (I know I would be pissed off if my equipment broke on a regular basis and the maintenance would cost me more than more active players because I have less time to "earn" money in the game because of being online less often).
I thought you were talking about a per-time-unit damage (thus "constant"). However you just explained that you meant the exact same concept I tried to explain: per-use damage.
However I do not like the idea of equipment being damaged EVERY time you use it. I'm more comfortable with the idea of there being a random chance to damage it when using it, so that you'd risk damaging it constantly, but wouldn't neccessarily do so.
Of course in order not to piss people off too much the wear would be limited. You wouldn't have to repair it after using it ten times, if you're lucky not even after using it a hundred times, but eventually you'd have to.
The game is intended to be set in a rather large open land with some civilised areas here and there. Having to return to a city every couple of uses would turn out to be rather annoying than anything else.
SeBastardIII
First time out of the vault
Armor damage? Sounds like a sound plan to me... but I've got something cooler (at least I think): Weapon destruction and disarming enemies and such. How could this be implemented? A better aiming scheme.
Lets say when you do an aimed shot, and the display of a body comes up and you pick a part; well I think there should be sub-categories. Like if you aim for someone's arm it gives you an option to shoot: Elbow, Wrist/(or)Hand, and Gun. Even adding in an artery would be cool.
If you choose gun, then more categories should pop up. Like: Slide, magazine. Shooting the slide/or whatever should disable the gun, but not damage the ammunition. Hitting the magazine should cause the ammunition in the magazine to ignite, then "BOOM", farewell hand. Shoot the wrist, weapon is dropped. Shoot the hand=25% or so that the magazine is hit (of course this is for handguns or smgs with magazines in the handle).
Bleeding would make a sweet addition (arteries should be really hard to hit), as well as a engine that displays damage to armor, the user and weapons (maybe environment). Kinda like Solider of Fortune (ugh).
Image traveling with only a Mauser c96 (Gizmo's weapon) and you come across a super mutant with a rocket launcher. Your turn is first, so you aim into the launcher's tube. *BANG* *BOOM* Fucking mutant has one less arm and shoulder. Massive blood spray, deep voiced screaming, and other horrible (yet cool) shit.
Lets say when you do an aimed shot, and the display of a body comes up and you pick a part; well I think there should be sub-categories. Like if you aim for someone's arm it gives you an option to shoot: Elbow, Wrist/(or)Hand, and Gun. Even adding in an artery would be cool.
If you choose gun, then more categories should pop up. Like: Slide, magazine. Shooting the slide/or whatever should disable the gun, but not damage the ammunition. Hitting the magazine should cause the ammunition in the magazine to ignite, then "BOOM", farewell hand. Shoot the wrist, weapon is dropped. Shoot the hand=25% or so that the magazine is hit (of course this is for handguns or smgs with magazines in the handle).
Bleeding would make a sweet addition (arteries should be really hard to hit), as well as a engine that displays damage to armor, the user and weapons (maybe environment). Kinda like Solider of Fortune (ugh).
Image traveling with only a Mauser c96 (Gizmo's weapon) and you come across a super mutant with a rocket launcher. Your turn is first, so you aim into the launcher's tube. *BANG* *BOOM* Fucking mutant has one less arm and shoulder. Massive blood spray, deep voiced screaming, and other horrible (yet cool) shit.
SeBastardIII said:
For your own safety I advise you to go and run away before Rosh takes notice of your post.
The system I described is what I have in mind for a game not related to Fallout. Such a system would be a bad idea for Fallout. What you described would be even worse.
Go and buy Postal 2, it might satisfy your needs more than Fallout.
SeBastardIII
First time out of the vault
Ashmo said:
For my safety? Are there nerds that bad in here? What is he going to do? "Email bomb" me?
I didn't ask for anyone to like this system, I could care less. I like realism, some don't.
And another thing: I'm tired of shooters, they lack realism (like Postal 2). The only realistic games out are crappy American Military or Counter Terrorism games (I don't like renactting wars, all of which have been illegal). The only exception is the Czech simulation/shooter: Operation Flashpoint (a series fictional conflicts).
SeBastard, don't invite flames. Blackwing, Ashmo; don't encourage him.
If you want to talk politics, the General Discussion forum is always open, this is not the forum for it.
Edit: Your first sentence in that post is purposely provocative. That's inviting flames, being provocative. Now just let it rest.
If you want to talk politics, the General Discussion forum is always open, this is not the forum for it.
Edit: Your first sentence in that post is purposely provocative. That's inviting flames, being provocative. Now just let it rest.
SeBastardIII
First time out of the vault
Kotario said:
No flames here. I smell no smoke either. *shrugs like a french man* (Read "Are You Dave Gorman?" *good book* for the answer)
Gonzalez
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Well, in my opinion, a damage amount inflicted into an armor for this being hit by an strange agent (call it a bullet projectile, for example) would NOT make it more ralistic. For instance, how do you repair a hole in your power armour? I can´t imagine to do anything else but call the manofacturer and ask for an spare part (the breastpale maybe) asumig that such a hole would not be also be left on your chest. Remember the reason why none cant just kill someone wearing a power armor and steal the armor, the armor would be in such a poor condition as his/her six feet under burried previous owner. That is why in Fallout 2 you can´t pick any armor when you loot your victims.
Or in case of not a such complicated armor. I dont thik i would be carryng spare metal parts i my poket just in case my metal armor gets damaged and i want to make the repairs.
In any case it would only constitute a new way to increase the gameplay as a tactical element, but it would not make it realistic. And in my personal concern, such an element would be higly anoying.
Or in case of not a such complicated armor. I dont thik i would be carryng spare metal parts i my poket just in case my metal armor gets damaged and i want to make the repairs.
In any case it would only constitute a new way to increase the gameplay as a tactical element, but it would not make it realistic. And in my personal concern, such an element would be higly anoying.
There seem to be two distinct topics going on here: Damage to weapons, and damage to armor, and the subsequent failure of both. Here's my $0.02 on both.
Weapon damage:
This should really only come from direct damage to a weapon. A raider with an axe could smash your rifle's receiver, a sharpshooter could plink a gun out of your hands, but using a weapon shouldn't incur gradual failure. The only thing I'd perhaps do is have guns get dirty from use, which they do. All you'd have to do is clean it, which would require, say, a modest repair skill, or a high skill in the weapon category. (Just for the sake of argument, cleaning your pistol would require, say, 45 repair, or 85 small guns, assuming those two skills are in the new skill set. A tool kit would add only 10 to your bonus because generic tools aren't really made for gun maintenance, but a gun cleaning kit would give you 25 bonus since it's made for that and presumably has clear directions.) A fouled pistol would be less accurate, and the chance of it blowing up accidentally should go up a little, but otherwise this shouldn't be a major gameplay element. I'd keep the very infrequent critical misses where you blow up your gun or loose your ammo, though.
On the subject of Armor taking damage, we've got a bigger problem. Some types of armor lend themselves to maintenance. Metal armor made after the wars is basically plates of metal bent and shaped into armor, perhaps even without aid of a forge. Repairing it or even creating it shouldn't be too difficult with access to a scrap yard or similar. Body armor like a policeman wears is kevlar with plates at key areas, it takes a LOT of damage from a bullet, and some bullet can just go right through it. If you found a police armor vest, it wouldn't last you too long in a firefight.
Armor could be broken down into types for different parts of your body. I remember in FO and FO2 the screen would still say you were hit "with no armor there" even when you were in Power Armor and you had armor everywhere. The Vest I mentioned would only cover your torso but protect you very well from bullets, but it would need its trauma plates replaced every so often, once they soaked up too many bullets. This would have to be kept track of, and thus it would make using such a vest a pain for the player.
Other types of armor would be different; you're not going to do anything shooting Hollow-point rounds at Power Armor or even metal armor, they should really just go "splat". Then we bring up the thorny issue of what happens when someone just happens to have an anti-tank rifle than can put neat little holes in your Power armor? You certainly can't repair it easily; it was designed at a time when it would have had a support structure of people who would've taken care of it, but now it's out on its own with its user. Given the scarcity of Power Armor in the Fallout series, if armor damage was universally implemented, Power Armor would end up looking like the surface of the moon.
Here's a possibly solution: Make common armor like leather jackets, leather armor, and body armor able to be damaged by certain things and levels of damage (For instance a leather jacket won't suffer much if some's going after you with a bullwhip or a lead pipe, but it might get cut up if someone's after you with a knife. Likewise, thick leather armor will fend off the knife, but it too could get ruined by someone with a finely honed Japanese sword. Flak vests would take damage to their trauma plates, which would require replacements. If the composite plates weren't available, you could use whatever metal was at hand, decreasing the effectiveness as appropriate. More expensive armors like Combat Armor and Power Armor could be very, very difficult to destroy. Normal bullets and blows just wouldn't cut it. Not even standard AP rounds from a normal gun should be able to cut through power armor (since the idea is to make the wearer immune to normal guns). Make a few select weapons able to damage Power Armor; perhaps an anit-tank rifle or an anti-material rifle like a Barret light fifty, but nothing else, unless the difficult maintenance of Power Armor intrude on the gameplay and enjoyment. A few places in the game where the player has to be cautious or creative because his foe just happens to be packing the right weapon.
Anti Power Armor weapons wouldn't be everyday occurences; during World War II a whole variety of weapons appeared to take out tanks; paging through "The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War Two" reveals precious few weapons of much use agains Power Armor; the only rifle able to penetrate over an inch of case-hardened steel was the cumbersome, heavy Japanese Type 97; this weighed 114 pounds and had a 7 round box magazine. The odds of something so unique existing in the wastes are low.
Weapon damage:
This should really only come from direct damage to a weapon. A raider with an axe could smash your rifle's receiver, a sharpshooter could plink a gun out of your hands, but using a weapon shouldn't incur gradual failure. The only thing I'd perhaps do is have guns get dirty from use, which they do. All you'd have to do is clean it, which would require, say, a modest repair skill, or a high skill in the weapon category. (Just for the sake of argument, cleaning your pistol would require, say, 45 repair, or 85 small guns, assuming those two skills are in the new skill set. A tool kit would add only 10 to your bonus because generic tools aren't really made for gun maintenance, but a gun cleaning kit would give you 25 bonus since it's made for that and presumably has clear directions.) A fouled pistol would be less accurate, and the chance of it blowing up accidentally should go up a little, but otherwise this shouldn't be a major gameplay element. I'd keep the very infrequent critical misses where you blow up your gun or loose your ammo, though.
On the subject of Armor taking damage, we've got a bigger problem. Some types of armor lend themselves to maintenance. Metal armor made after the wars is basically plates of metal bent and shaped into armor, perhaps even without aid of a forge. Repairing it or even creating it shouldn't be too difficult with access to a scrap yard or similar. Body armor like a policeman wears is kevlar with plates at key areas, it takes a LOT of damage from a bullet, and some bullet can just go right through it. If you found a police armor vest, it wouldn't last you too long in a firefight.
Armor could be broken down into types for different parts of your body. I remember in FO and FO2 the screen would still say you were hit "with no armor there" even when you were in Power Armor and you had armor everywhere. The Vest I mentioned would only cover your torso but protect you very well from bullets, but it would need its trauma plates replaced every so often, once they soaked up too many bullets. This would have to be kept track of, and thus it would make using such a vest a pain for the player.
Other types of armor would be different; you're not going to do anything shooting Hollow-point rounds at Power Armor or even metal armor, they should really just go "splat". Then we bring up the thorny issue of what happens when someone just happens to have an anti-tank rifle than can put neat little holes in your Power armor? You certainly can't repair it easily; it was designed at a time when it would have had a support structure of people who would've taken care of it, but now it's out on its own with its user. Given the scarcity of Power Armor in the Fallout series, if armor damage was universally implemented, Power Armor would end up looking like the surface of the moon.
Here's a possibly solution: Make common armor like leather jackets, leather armor, and body armor able to be damaged by certain things and levels of damage (For instance a leather jacket won't suffer much if some's going after you with a bullwhip or a lead pipe, but it might get cut up if someone's after you with a knife. Likewise, thick leather armor will fend off the knife, but it too could get ruined by someone with a finely honed Japanese sword. Flak vests would take damage to their trauma plates, which would require replacements. If the composite plates weren't available, you could use whatever metal was at hand, decreasing the effectiveness as appropriate. More expensive armors like Combat Armor and Power Armor could be very, very difficult to destroy. Normal bullets and blows just wouldn't cut it. Not even standard AP rounds from a normal gun should be able to cut through power armor (since the idea is to make the wearer immune to normal guns). Make a few select weapons able to damage Power Armor; perhaps an anit-tank rifle or an anti-material rifle like a Barret light fifty, but nothing else, unless the difficult maintenance of Power Armor intrude on the gameplay and enjoyment. A few places in the game where the player has to be cautious or creative because his foe just happens to be packing the right weapon.
Anti Power Armor weapons wouldn't be everyday occurences; during World War II a whole variety of weapons appeared to take out tanks; paging through "The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War Two" reveals precious few weapons of much use agains Power Armor; the only rifle able to penetrate over an inch of case-hardened steel was the cumbersome, heavy Japanese Type 97; this weighed 114 pounds and had a 7 round box magazine. The odds of something so unique existing in the wastes are low.
Gonzalez
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Whatever. Lets just ask borrowed the JA2 system for damaged armors and we call it a wash.
Forgotten said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
With all due respect.
Seriously, no matter how good you are, homemade firearms are really, really terrible compared to anything made in a factory in the last 100 years (with the usual exceptions like the 94 Shiki Kenju pistol and really crappy tube shotguns and so on)
Then again, not to completely discredit your statement, having a high skill for gunsmithing could be useful. (laughter aside, it's all in good nature; but just most homemade guns tend to be crap) Little "zip" guns the shape of pens or screwdrivers or other innocuous equipment could be very useful; basically they could work like the Shiv in Fallout 2 was supposed to; i.e. you could carry them around without attracting undue attention. Furthermore, in a weapon-starved society, being able to turn useless metal bits into a firearm; however crude; could be a useful trade in a society where you're lucky to have a sharp knife for defense.
I have to agree with that, Lord 342, but there is always the exeptions. Say you have a very high skill, and in addition, you have come over all the equipment to make a gun properly, maybe even pblueprints to make it. Hmm, when I think of it, this sounds more apropriate for an NPC, now that would work. We had that guy in Fallout1..don't remember his name, in LA Boneyard, he made bullets, at least he reused old ones...combined with a blacksmith and the equipment to do it, I think anyone would do it, except the player, because he is always on the move if you know what I mean 
Refilling bullets is a different task altogether from making an actual gun. Throwing together a firearm from scrap with basic tools will result in a shitty weapon. With a little more care and basic machine tools, though, you CAN make a decent weapon. You point is valid; someone with a machineshop (Any generic variety will do; Auto repair garages or the like) and the ubiquitous blueprints for the British "Sten" Machinepistol could whip up one, or two, or twenty to sell to the locals and make a living.
As to refiling bullets, a friend of mine who is a shooter does it himself; there's a little machine that helps you do it properly and the results, so he tells me, are perfectly satisfactory. I could see in the game, things like Gun powder and shell casings becoming commodities. Also, there are lots of antique guns around that need only black powder, lead, and modest heat to make ammunition, and muskets can be loaded with shot, rocks, balls, rocksalt, a handful of nails, anything, really. In a post-apoc world, I don't think everyone will have access to neat rows of specific rounds packed in cosmoline; I think weapons like Muskets and old-fashioned shotguns would be prized for their ability to fire crude projectiles with easily created powder. There was even a type of rifle made at one point that was designed to fire a cartridge, but could be loaded from the muzzle and fired that way, too, if it became necessary.
Since anyone with the little press could make lead bullets, specific rounds for modern guns shouldn't be in short supply, but better ammo types would be more uncommon (prewar APs, subsonics, Hollow-points, or any other specialty rounds).
Related; I think the game could benefit with some different types of shotgun shells; many are made for myriad purposes and they would be relatively easy implement. Imagine a White Phosphorus flare that did fire damage for 3d6 rounds, or a beanbag round with a low damage rating but a special flag to have the target make an EN check or be incapacitated; there are all sorts of things you could do with shotgun rounds. ("real world" note, most of these specialty rounds can't be fired from automatic shotguns. Implementing this would impart balance in the game)
As to refiling bullets, a friend of mine who is a shooter does it himself; there's a little machine that helps you do it properly and the results, so he tells me, are perfectly satisfactory. I could see in the game, things like Gun powder and shell casings becoming commodities. Also, there are lots of antique guns around that need only black powder, lead, and modest heat to make ammunition, and muskets can be loaded with shot, rocks, balls, rocksalt, a handful of nails, anything, really. In a post-apoc world, I don't think everyone will have access to neat rows of specific rounds packed in cosmoline; I think weapons like Muskets and old-fashioned shotguns would be prized for their ability to fire crude projectiles with easily created powder. There was even a type of rifle made at one point that was designed to fire a cartridge, but could be loaded from the muzzle and fired that way, too, if it became necessary.
Since anyone with the little press could make lead bullets, specific rounds for modern guns shouldn't be in short supply, but better ammo types would be more uncommon (prewar APs, subsonics, Hollow-points, or any other specialty rounds).
Related; I think the game could benefit with some different types of shotgun shells; many are made for myriad purposes and they would be relatively easy implement. Imagine a White Phosphorus flare that did fire damage for 3d6 rounds, or a beanbag round with a low damage rating but a special flag to have the target make an EN check or be incapacitated; there are all sorts of things you could do with shotgun rounds. ("real world" note, most of these specialty rounds can't be fired from automatic shotguns. Implementing this would impart balance in the game)
holyrebellion
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Damaged weapons and damaged armour.
Well its pretty basic. Guns have quality/durability. If you buy a shit gun from the local junkyard, it'll be cheap, but it'll jam up and shoot bullets backwards. If you spend the money, you get quality guns that'll last you, and they'll be more reliable, shoot better, do more damage. The more you burst, the more damage the gun takes. A damaged gun is fixed with you repair and 'insert type of gun here' skills. There is a 'point of no return' where it goes beyond repair. Bad luck buddy you didnt take care of that HKP90c farmer joe gave you for saving his crop, you bursted 46 times in a row on half of the enclave soliders.
Armour is damage is the same, you get plastered, you fix it. You can do it yourself, or if u got no skill, take it to a shop. Thre more advanced the armour, the harder it is to fix. If you bought it from a junkyard, its gonna protect you like rice paper. (damaged armour = less damage protection, AC of course). You pump 543 10mm Full Metal jackets into someone and you pick up their armour, dont expect it to be looking like any more than a shirt of cheese. Fix it with your repair skill, or take it to the tannery, he'll patch it up for you for $252. Dont whinge about the price. You have $15625 stashed in your boot. Moral of the story: buy good quality armour, it'll last you --> the extra buck you spend will save you later.
And there you have it. Holy's simple, easy system for armour and weapon damage. adds a whole new aspect to the game: take care of your gear! I'd be great and i'd love to see this incorporated into the game! Its some hardcore programming/redesigning but, hope the F3 makers are willing to put in the effort 8)
holy
Well its pretty basic. Guns have quality/durability. If you buy a shit gun from the local junkyard, it'll be cheap, but it'll jam up and shoot bullets backwards. If you spend the money, you get quality guns that'll last you, and they'll be more reliable, shoot better, do more damage. The more you burst, the more damage the gun takes. A damaged gun is fixed with you repair and 'insert type of gun here' skills. There is a 'point of no return' where it goes beyond repair. Bad luck buddy you didnt take care of that HKP90c farmer joe gave you for saving his crop, you bursted 46 times in a row on half of the enclave soliders.
Armour is damage is the same, you get plastered, you fix it. You can do it yourself, or if u got no skill, take it to a shop. Thre more advanced the armour, the harder it is to fix. If you bought it from a junkyard, its gonna protect you like rice paper. (damaged armour = less damage protection, AC of course). You pump 543 10mm Full Metal jackets into someone and you pick up their armour, dont expect it to be looking like any more than a shirt of cheese. Fix it with your repair skill, or take it to the tannery, he'll patch it up for you for $252. Dont whinge about the price. You have $15625 stashed in your boot. Moral of the story: buy good quality armour, it'll last you --> the extra buck you spend will save you later.
And there you have it. Holy's simple, easy system for armour and weapon damage. adds a whole new aspect to the game: take care of your gear! I'd be great and i'd love to see this incorporated into the game! Its some hardcore programming/redesigning but, hope the F3 makers are willing to put in the effort 8)
holy