Dark Tower: The Gunslinger

Karkow said:
Please no spoilers
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I think if we carry on discussing it in this thread, we're gonna end up with spoilers. There's already been a couple of small ones, but there may well be a larger one sooner or later.
 
Thorgrimm said:
The Stand is also connected because that is the when that Blaine the mono ended his death ride at. :)
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The "when", yes. The "where", no.

There were a lot of key diferences in that "where" as opposed to our "where." Something about the names of the cars and the football teams, etc.
 
(the movie was a biiig dissolution)
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You mean disappointment right? dissolution is quite similar to "desilusão", so i get where that came from.

Btw have you heard Durão Barroso speaking in english? How embarrassing...
 
I said dissolution? LOL... of course I meant disappointment....

Durão is an embarrassment at so many levels...
 
If you really want to read up on the Dark Tower connections, I seriously recommend that you click on this link.

http://www.thedarktower.net/connections/index.php

It is an extensive list of all of King's works and how they connect to the Dark Tower. The main page gives an overview of the books most directly connected, but the sidebar on the right lists all of King's books, and each one is a link to in depth descriptions of the connections.

All of King's novels can be classified into five categories based on how closely related each one is to The Dark Tower. I've always seen these categories as concentric circles with the Tower at the center. Books which fall within the inner circles are more important to the Tower than those in the outer circles.
he inner-most set of stories are what I call the Central Canons. They not only relate to the plot of the Tower, but they actively contribute to the Mythology of the series. They are Insomnia, Hearts in Atlantis, and Black House. A common thread among these three is that each focuses on the darker side of King's Universe. Without them, we would have very little understanding about what it is Roland and the coming of the White are up against. While the Tower books deal with Flagg, who has been the prime evil in Roland's quest so far, they hardly touch upon the real cause of his quest — the Crimson King and his plans for the Dark Tower. Instead, the reader is forced to rely on these three side-stories for understanding.

The Crimson King was first introduced in Insomnia. In this novel King tells us that there are two forces controlling the universe: the Purpose and the Random, which is governed by the Crimson King. Also in this story, King addresses the metaphysical nature of the Tower for the first time. Clotho and Lachesis (two of the three Little Bald Doctors) tell Ralph and Lois that all of existence is contained within the Tower, and that the Tower itself is subdivided into different levels. Humans (known as "short-timers") live on the bottom level, while the LBD's (known as "long-timers") live on a slightly higher level. They say that the many levels of the Tower rise higher and further up than either of them know. So far, in fact, that even they don't know what is contained at the top. All they can say for certain is that there is only one constant at all levels. Love.

In the story "Low Men in Yellow Coats" from Hearts in Atlantis, King lets us in on the Crimson King's plans for the Tower. For many years he has been rounding up people with psychic abilites (known as Breakers), and forcing them to use their talents to destroy the Beams which support the Tower. One of his most powerful Breakers is a man named Ted Brautigan. As a testament to his value, Ted is able to make a deal with the Low Men. In exchange for his cooperation, the Low Men leave without Bobby.

"I doubt if the Crimson King will thank you for a meaningless pretty if it interferes with his plans . . . . If I give you what you want instead of forcing you to take it, I may be able to speed things up by fifty years or more." (226)

"Low Men in Yellow Coats" ends with Ted being taken away by the Low Men. The last story in Hearts in Atlantis, "Heavenly Shades of Night are Falling", gives the reader closure in knowing that Ted has once again escaped the Crimson King. However, neither story goes into much detail about the mechanics of the Breakers. They only introduce the idea to the reader. Black House, however, fleshes out what Hearts in Atlantis leaves untold.

Black House, the sequel to the much debated The Talisman, picks up with Jack Sawyer as a grown man. He is a retired "coppiceman" who has been brought back to work on the disappearance of Tyler Marshall. As it turns out, Tyler is not merely missing, he has been kidnapped by a man working for Mr. Malshun, an agent of the Crimson King. Parkus tells Jack that the King is after Tyler because while other Breakers may be like a fire-arrow, Tyler is "a guided missled...a nuclear weapon even." His power as a Breaker is unmatched. Parkus goes on to explain about the different types of Breakers, the strengths of each, the current status of the Beams, and that the Crimson King's ultimate goal is to release himself from his prison inside the Dark Tower. To do this he must stop Roland and his new ka-tet's quest for the Tower.
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Interesting. Looks like I'll have to read Insomnia then.

Still, the wicked side of me says that this is part of King's idea to keep people reading his books.

I would be curious to see where the stories from Skeleton Crew and Everything is Eventual fit in. I am also not sure about Bag of Bones. The fit? Seems a bit hokey.
http://www.thedarktower.net/connections/official.php

Also the page you mentioned says all stories relate, but it only points out to a few as "how they relate." That's a stretch. I mean, theoretically one can say everything relates to everything, but that doesn't do us much good in actually figuring stuff out.

Damn busy website.
 
How does the film version of Hearts in Atlantis keep up with the Dark Tower lore? Does it eliminate it completely?

I haven't seen it, even though it was filmed just up the street.
 
Well, the film version of Hearts in Atlantis keeps up with the tradition of the Low Men and the like, which are the henchmen of the Crimson King. They were present in Father Callahan's stories in Wolves of the Calla.
 
Malkavian wrote:
There were a lot of key diferences in that "where" as opposed to our "where." Something about the names of the cars and the football teams, etc.
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The differences were there to show that it was not Eddies, Susannah's or Jake's where. To me it meant the when and where of the superflu was just another floor on the tower. :)



Cheers Thorgrimm
 
Not a floor on the tower, cause the ka-tet is searching for the Tower. If they were already on the tower, it would be kinda pointless. Rather, the Topeka where and when they were in was another world, in particular, the world of The Stand, which is again, not our where. It is a unique Where, a different world that looks like ours, but has slight differences that distinguish it.
 
Oh great mage of the Dark Tower (King of Creation)

What, do tell, was the relationship of It- the Turtle and Spider- to the Dark Tower?

Also does the Crimson King have anything to do with King Crimson (kick ass hard rocker?)
 
welsh said:
Oh great mage of the Dark Tower (King of Creation)

What, do tell, was the relationship of It- the Turtle and Spider- to the Dark Tower?

Also does the Crimson King have anything to do with King Crimson (kick ass hard rocker?)
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Well, the Turtle and Spider are easy. They are both Guardians of their respective Beams. The Ka-tet encountered one of these guardians, the Bear, in DT4 (iirc). The Beams are the metaphysical "supports" that hold up the Dark Tower. The Crimson King's mission is to try and destroy these beams, using Breakers, which is what Ted from Hearts in Atlantis was. They are basically people strong in the "touch," as King describes it. The Breakers are most often recruited against their will, and their psychic abilities are used to try and break the beams.

Also, there may very well be a connection between King Crimson and the Crimson King. King Crimson just released a DVD called Eyes Wide Open, and the Crimson King's symbol is a big open eye. :P
 
So this isn't two different mythologies.

I thought the spider was the destroyer and creator, the turtle was the protector. In a sense the spider is a shiva, and the turtle is vishnu.

Actually I thought that whole metaphysical thing was the best part of the book, but again, I am thinking this is only added to the King's Darktower mythology by after-thought and not design. In a sense this is a throwback to Lovecraft, and to a lesser extent, Howard and the Conan stories.

For example, the story Jerusalem's Lot, the reference is more to Lovecraft than the Dark Tower mythos. Likewise, Crouch End in Nightmares and Dreamscapes, as well as the Mist, seem more Lovecraft than DarkTower.

comment?
 
Unfortunately, I've never read any Lovecraft...

However, I do believe that King himself has said that the Dark Tower series has evolved to include more things than even he knew it would when it started out 30 years ago.

That said, though, the Dark Tower is really the origination of many of the elements in the other stories. Although the book was published in 1982, King began work on it while he was still in college. People like Randall Flagg, the Crimson King, and other things had their originations here. Then King wrote more novels, creating more worlds and characters. The Dark Tower series is his way, I think, to incorporate all of his worlds, indeed, ALL worlds. What came first doesn't appear to matter. What matters is that the Dark Tower is the essence that binds all worlds together, and while King has created different stories that all appear to have significant characters or events, they all play a role in the history of the Tower.
 
Indeed.

I always liked King's story about the nasty green paper he used to write on, because he couldn't afford regular paper. I think it's in the forward to one of the books...maybe Wizard and Glass...
 
King of Creation said:
Unfortunately, I've never read any Lovecraft...
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Then today is your lucky day.
Check-
http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/index.html

Try the Call of Cthulu,
The mountains of Madness,
The rats in the walls
and the Dunwich Horror.

Good stuff.

However, I do believe that King himself has said that the Dark Tower series has evolved to include more things than even he knew it would when it started out 30 years ago.
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THis is where I don't buy it. about 15 years ago, when I was a college student, I was on the trail of getting a rare edition of a Stephen King Book- Dark Tower 1. This was before it came out in big sales. King had written the book and it had been published, but only released a few copies, and those were a rare find. It was only later that he published the series for mass consumption.

This was also after he had written the Dead Zone, Fire Starter, Cujo, Salem's Lot, Different Seasons, the Stand, Carrie, Nightshift, and a few others. The Old era of King, which I think ends with It, which I thought was one of the best of the bunch.

That said, though, the Dark Tower is really the origination of many of the elements in the other stories. Although the book was published in 1982, King began work on it while he was still in college. People like Randall Flagg, the Crimson King, and other things had their originations here. Then King wrote more novels, creating more worlds and characters. The Dark Tower series is his way, I think, to incorporate all of his worlds, indeed, ALL worlds. What came first doesn't appear to matter. What matters is that the Dark Tower is the essence that binds all worlds together, and while King has created different stories that all appear to have significant characters or events, they all play a role in the history of the Tower.
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What I think happened is that King started this as a personal project and worked with it but didn't know where to go with it. Feeling the need to finish it he started working on the other volumes and they kind of came together. But each of the books is quite different and all pale to the first, which is more a collection of stories of a trip than a novel.

But King has worked, or so he has told his Dear Constant Readers, without notes. He sits down and bangs it out, probably with some sense of where the story is going but kind of surprised at where it takes him. To think that King wrote all his stories with ties to the Dark Tower credits him with more of a "masterplan" than I think King ever really brought to his writing projects.

Now if you look at Lovecraft, his notion of "Elder Gods" comes up through his work, but only dominated his thinking during a portion of his time. We know he was working with that kind of a "masterplan" because of his extensive correspondence with other writers of the time who shared an interest in writing about "weird fantasy."

To accept, as you argue, that all of King's books fit into a mythological structure of story telling seems a bit fallacious. It is possible that King plugged in parts of his books into the Dark Tower world during his writing because that was part his intellectual and artistic development. But to say that all the stories were written with the intention of fitting into a structure is a bit disingenous.

It sounds more like fans have created this structure after-the-fact through rather poor process tracing. In otherwords this is a creation of the fans, or perhaps King himself as a means of commercializing (and let's be honest, King is also a crafty businessman). Just because there might be some connections between books doesn't mean there was a masterplan in their creation.

Know what I mean?
 
welsh said:
However, I do believe that King himself has said that the Dark Tower series has evolved to include more things than even he knew it would when it started out 30 years ago.
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THis is where I don't buy it. about 15 years ago, when I was a college student, I was on the trail of getting a rare edition of a Stephen King Book- Dark Tower 1. This was before it came out in big sales. King had written the book and it had been published, but only released a few copies, and those were a rare find. It was only later that he published the series for mass consumption.

This was also after he had written the Dead Zone, Fire Starter, Cujo, Salem's Lot, Different Seasons, the Stand, Carrie, Nightshift, and a few others. The Old era of King, which I think ends with It, which I thought was one of the best of the bunch.
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He wrote most of The Gunslinger when he was still in college, welsh. It wasn't published for years and years. I wish I could figure out where that Author's Note is, about the green paper and such...it explains everything pretty well.
 
Malkavian wrote:
I wish I could figure out where that Author's Note is, about the green paper and such...it explains everything pretty well.
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It was in the very first copy of the Gunslinger before it took off and was redone. I have a copy of the book, and also on tape where king himself is reading the book. And he talks of the different colors of paper, and specifically the green paper.
So you might want to track down a 1st edition book, and no i am not giving mine up. :wink:


Cheers Thorgrimm
 
Like I said earlier Malk, King is now in his 50s. He was in college in the 1970s. When I was in college I was looking for the first release of this book which was published in limited print. A lot of horror writers publish early books in limited number.

The first book, the Gunslinger, was written back in the 1970s, and commerically released much later. The original publication came earlier.

But regardless, what King of Creation is essentially arguing or suggesting is that King had a notion of the Dark Tower series early and that was his masterplan. What I am saying is no, it is more like the plan slowly unfolded around him and finally came to closure with the series. Yes some of the books have references to the Dark Tower, but King does that in a lot of his books. It doesn't mean that he had a mythological structure in mind when he wrote all his books.

So if he didn't have this structure when he wrote the books, or many of his books (which is why so many of the books are unrelated to the series except in a large 'unrelated' category of the outer circle) than where did the structure come from.

Arguable two places-
(1) fans. Because the fans want a system that ties it altogether, they created it. Hey that happens here as well as fans speculate on the deeper mysteries of Fallout.
(2) King as an after-though. Having finished a career he can conveniently say, "Ah see, they all relate! I am a genius." That would be disingenuous.

I like Stephen King. Some of his books are great, others are crap. I commend him on his contribution- even if he's hogged up the limited horror market (but the blame there also goes to Saul- awful, Koontz- used to be better, and Rice- blah). However, coming up with the system as King of Creation is suggesting, is I think wrong.

It seems to me King wrote his books as he felt like it, and if there is a central component it is merely King himself, he alone is the source of his inspiration and artistic creation. Does that mean that the books were in there all the time, but part of his subconscious? No. Why? Because a person changes as they get older.

The Gunslinger is probably the best of the lot. King is young, ambitious and at his most imaginative. The story is based on his inspirations while in College.

Over time, as he became a mass producer of horror, the books got stale and less interesting, everyonce and awhile coming out and printing something interesting- Bag of Bones showed that King still had craft, but Needful things was just extranous. Storm of the Century was fun and much better than Rose Red, which was a cheap rip off of much better books- such as Matheson's Hell House and Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House.

There is a good and bad side to this. The good side si that King's audience reveals that there is a mass audience that still wants King's kind of horror. That he is retiring gives other writers a chance. Horror has a bad name. Even Koontz doesn't want to be called a horror writer.

But there are lots of good horror reads that no one pays attention too. Some folks like Poppy Z Brite. You might Malk, although it doesn't work for me- it's too goth. Laurel Hamilton's Buffy for grown-ups, reveals the horror of feminist horror, as bad as Rice. Richard Laymon, however, is a delightful surprise,and some of James Herbert's stuff is great. Of course how many people read Matheson- I am Legend, anymore? So King both invigorates interest but also gobbles it up. In a small pond of a genre, King has been the Mooby Dick that has robbed the others of food (in that case readers).

Why? Brand name. Fans love a brand name, like some people like beer labels. Best sellers gravitate an audience that takes it away from other notable reads. For instance the Club Dumas has been around for awhile, is better than most of King's books as literary craft, but gets little attention. Laymon is now only getting credit after he died- and read the Traveling Vampire Show which reminds me a lot of King's THe Body.

So the good- King has been able to retain interest in a small genre and show that it can still sell. The bad, because he's so widely read, a lot of writers have lost their chance to get published. Now there's a lot of crap out there, it's true. But there is some really good stuff, that goes unnoticed as well.
 
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