Design Lesson 101 - Fallout/Fallout 2

Brother None

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
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Raven Software's Manveer Heir writes about lessons to be learned from Fallout 1/2 on Gamasutra.<blockquote>In many games, this would be the end. The poor choice I made in talking to an official in a snide manner would result in the consequence of game over, since the critical information was hiding within.

However, in Fallout, while the consequence of making my life more difficult was apparent, the game wasn't over. There were other sources that had the same information elsewhere. I just had to explore some other cities to find them. I had to find an alternate path. A path that the designers made available, knowing that someone would talk themselves into a pickle inside Vault City.

The game never told me if I talked back to the man in Vault City that I would get the boot. It just did it. I made that choice. I remember clicking the dialog option and thinking to myself “Man, this guy is a little annoying. I'm going to be a smart-ass." Nowadays, many games would broadcast you the consequence of your choice before the choice is made. Give the player all the information up-front, and they can make the right decision.</blockquote>
 
My personality came through in my actions and the choices I made. I controlled the actions of my character and how he responded to the situations of the world. Nowhere is that more apparent than at the end of both games, when the narrator talks about what happens in the future to different characters and areas. Some cities will prosper because you helped out. Others will die off, because you abandoned them. Still, others will fail even after your best efforts.

All of this makes the world of Fallout feel bigger and richer than it really is. It doesn't end up feeling strictly like a sequence of designer-created events. It feels like a world that responds to you, that lets you be the person you want to be, and gives you a chance no matter what. That's the beauty of Fallout and it took replaying both games to realize why I consider them to be my favorite games of all-time.
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Right on.
 
Nowadays, many games would broadcast you the consequence of your choice before the choice is made. Give the player all the information up-front, and they can make the right decision.
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Kind of like fallout 3....
 
Having just skimmed through the Fallout 3 Manual it would seem that Bethesda has without a doubt targeted this game at the 360 Generation. Taking the player by the hand is one thing.. carting him about in a wheelchair is another.

I loved games that threw you straight into the action with little or no introduction or information, eg. Myst, Deus Ex, etc, ad nausium.

There's no challenge or excitement in games when eeeeverything has already been revealed by over-excited delopers long before a release. And dammit, Bethesda devs just can't seem to keep their fat mouths shut.
 
SoberCounsel said:
Having just skimmed through the Fallout 3 Manual it would seem that Bethesda has without a doubt targeted this game at the 360 Generation. Taking the player by the hand is one thing.. carting him about in a wheelchair is another.

I loved games that threw you straight into the action with little or no introduction or information, eg. Myst, Deus Ex, etc, ad nausium.

There's no challenge or excitement in games when eeeeverything has already been revealed by over-excited delopers long before a release. And dammit, Bethesda devs just can't seem to keep their fat mouths shut.
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Ugh, hurray more misinformation. Outside of the initial "tutorial" segment in the vault, the game doesn't coddle you or lead you around. You're thrown out into the wilderness to fend for yourself and you can do whatever the hell you want.

Also, nobody forces you to read or watch these interviews with the devs. And nowhere near "eeeeverything" has been revealed. The game is pretty huge.
 
In Fallout 3 i can say "*%&$ off!" to the main quest line NPC and he' ll be waiting for me to change my decision. If you try to kill them they only become "unconcious". Bah, laziness...
 
Air Rifle said:
Ugh, hurray more misinformation. Outside of the initial "tutorial" segment in the vault, the game doesn't coddle you or lead you around. You're thrown out into the wilderness to fend for yourself and you can do whatever the hell you want.

Also, nobody forces you to read or watch these interviews with the devs. And nowhere near "eeeeverything" has been revealed. The game is pretty huge.
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Right, I mean it's not like Fallout 3 has a compass which points you to all of your quest targets, any "areas of interest" (which allow you to fast travel to them and gain experience from finding), and all nearby enemies. It doesn't tell you when you're going to make a skill check in dialog and what chance you have to succeed at it or tell you when you're lying and thus will loose karma for choosing that option. Nope, really just throws you out there to fend for yourself.
 
UncannyGarlic said:
Right, I mean it's not like Fallout 3 has a compass which points you to all of your quest targets, any "areas of interest" (which allow you to fast travel to them and gain experience from finding), and all nearby enemies. It doesn't tell you when you're going to make a skill check in dialog and what chance you have to succeed at it or tell you when you're lying and thus will loose karma for choosing that option. Nope, really just throws you out there to fend for yourself.
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You can not fast-travel to "areas of interest", you must first discover them by travelling in real-time, and usually they're not marked, only if an npc told you where it is, but even then you still have to travel there on foot for the first time.
 
Amer said:
You can not fast-travel to "areas of interest", you must first discover them by travelling in real-time, and usually they're not marked, only if an npc told you where it is, but even then you still have to travel there on foot for the first time.
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Guess I wasn't specific enough but yeah (good change from Oblivion where knowledge allows for fast travel), it would make even less sense to give you experience for fast traveling to a location (that's for TESV and Fallout 4).
 
UncannyGarlic said:
(good change from Oblivion where knowledge allows for fast travel).
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But in Oblivion, when PC gains knowledge about some place from NPC, a marker appears on the map but the place usually also has to be 'discovered' [in real time] first and only after that it become fully accessible via Fast Travel. When clicked the marker shows info: 'you haven't discovered it yet' or something like that.

There are some exceptions which are accessible from the moment PC leaves Prisone Sewers like some quest-related places and big cities [I guess devs thought those must be really easy to ovelook!]. The other places like tons of generic dungeons' entrances must be actually 'found' by PC.

Lack of accessible-from-start places on the map in Fallout 3 will probably cause so many problems for players [I mean those at who Bethesda aims with their latest games] that in TES 5 and FO4 we will probably see whole map uncovered/all places accessible.
 
UncannyGarlic said:
Air Rifle said:
Ugh, hurray more misinformation. Outside of the initial "tutorial" segment in the vault, the game doesn't coddle you or lead you around. You're thrown out into the wilderness to fend for yourself and you can do whatever the hell you want.

Also, nobody forces you to read or watch these interviews with the devs. And nowhere near "eeeeverything" has been revealed. The game is pretty huge.
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Right, I mean it's not like Fallout 3 has a compass which points you to all of your quest targets, any "areas of interest" (which allow you to fast travel to them and gain experience from finding), and all nearby enemies. It doesn't tell you when you're going to make a skill check in dialog and what chance you have to succeed at it or tell you when you're lying and thus will loose karma for choosing that option. Nope, really just throws you out there to fend for yourself.
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Yes, that one red notch on your compass is totally "holding your hand" and dumbing the game down. The original Fallouts had areas of interest appear on your map that you could fast travel to as soon as you learned about them in a dialogue or whatever. In F3 you have to physically walk to these areas before you can fast travel.

Also fail to see how putting the skill check next to dialogue choices is HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO DUMBED DOWN.

And yes, the game does throw you out there to fend for yourself. The map is completely unmarked. You aren't given any direction, you can go wherever you please and play the game however you want. You're given more direction out of the vault in the original games.

Putting a notch on your compass (checking your Pipboy map every 20-30 seconds as you truck through the wastelands would've been preferable?) and showing skill checks next to dialogue != BETHESDA IS TOTALLY LEADING YOU THROUGH THE GAME. ZOMG. RUINED.

I guess you can argue that these changes do make the game "easier", but their level of significance ranks somewhere between "miniscule" and "who gives a shit".
 
Wow thats was a great read - its nice to know that some people in the industry still have a normal view on things. Respect Raven :)

p.s. from what i've seen so far Fallout 3 is uhm worse then oblivion ... and yes there are sissy bars everywhere but that problem takes thrid place to the horrific writing and quest design and combat...
 
Air Rifle said:
The original Fallouts had areas of interest appear on your map that you could fast travel to as soon as you learned about them in a dialogue or whatever.
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Area of interest is not the same as location, and there's no fast travelling in Fallout 1/2, there's only map travel, which conceptually and in gameplay terms works out differently: when you get pointed to a location you still have to travel to it.

Air Rifle said:
Also fail to see how putting the skill check next to dialogue choices is HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO DUMBED DOWN.
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Dumbed down? Who was talking about dumbing down? Telling the player exactly what skills are checked and your chance of success when checking it = hand-holding.

Air Rifle said:
You're given more direction out of the vault in the original games.
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Uh, what?

First quest in Fallout 3: Go to Megaton
First quest in Fallout: Go to Vault 15

Exactly how is Fallout giving you more direction?
 
I have yet to play the game some more before I can come to any kind of definite conclusion.

I've only played for about 3 hours and so far it's better than I anticipated. which of course isn't enough for a fallout title, but at least it seems like an ok game.

compared to oblivion, fallout 3 is more complex and it feels like you do have more choice, even though most of whatever you choose to do seems to have a similar and very predictable outcome. definitely not like in fallout 1/2, where your choices often led to consequences you couldn't have foreseen. one such thing happend while playing F3 so far, so I'm hoping there is more of that. we'll see.

what really annoyed me is that the perks seem to have only positive effects, no more negative side effects which more often than not actually gave your character, well, character. does anybody know if the higher level perks come with negative effects? while I agree that F3 isn't as dumbed down as oblivion was, it's still nowhere near Fallout 1/2 and I think nothing gives more proof of that than how the perks work. for example the "fast learner" perk was always useful but in the old games it meant that you'd only get a perk every 3rd or 4th level (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) but you would get 10% more XP per level. In F3 you just get 10% more XP, with no trade-off whatsoever, that is dumbed down. like, blatantly.

and of course there is the inventory, which was clearly designed with consoles in mind and the mostly horrid character animations, some of which seem stripped directly from oblivion.
 
Perks never had negative sides in FO1 and FO2, only traits did..

"Fast learner" is an exact copy of its older counterpart, except that it gives 10% in FO3 and only 5% in the original
 
it's very likely that I'm mixing things up, but are you 100% sure?

I think I remember choosing between fast learner and fast shot, and deciding on fast shot because I didn't want to miss out on the traits (or perks) or whatever... you've confused me now :?

edit: oh, I just figured it out, they've done away with traits in F3, so in effect I was right, there are no more negative "traits" for your character, which sucks. I loved those.
 
I think I can give a pretty good example of the hand holding in fallout 3 that wasn't' evident in the previous games.

[spoiler:739571206d] In order to disarm the Megaton bomb you need an explosives skill of 25. If your skill isn't that, a message pops up telling you it needs to be that. Assuming you haven't put points into explosives how will you disarm the bomb? You may be asking. Easy, the game gives you a quests to talk to a character to get mentats after telling Simms your not skilled enough. Thats right, the game tells you to go find mentats. If that isn't hand holding, I don't know what is. [/spoiler:739571206d]

Also, interesting side note. It takes more points in explosives to disable a land mine then it does a nuke.

Awesome article btw, really an enjoyable read and I'm going to be watching that design studio in the future.
 
It's common for today's game developer to simplify their game design of choice and consequence to suite the market and appeal more people who can't spent 1 minute to read and adrenaline junkie for more action.

Gone it's the surprise and shock result when you make a choice. Rather it's 'dump all the information to the player so him can choose' this day. :?
 
ynamite said:
it's very likely that I'm mixing things up, but are you 100% sure?

I think I remember choosing between fast learner and fast shot, and deciding on fast shot because I didn't want to miss out on the traits (or perks) or whatever... you've confused me now :?

edit: oh, I just figured it out, they've done away with traits in F3, so in effect I was right, there are no more negative "traits" for your character, which sucks. I loved those.
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You're thinking of the "Skilled" trait : +5 Skill points per level.
(And a +10% on all skills flat in Fallout 1. May or may not have given the +5 skill points per level as well, can't remember) and that does lower the perk rate. Not a very popular trait, because everyone loves perks.

Maybe they should have coupled that downside with Gifted. Currently, Gifted is usually a no-brainer. Ah well.

-Gerko, been a while since his last post.
 
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